'Minnie Francis' rose reviews and comments

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'Minnie Francis' rose Reviews & Comments

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Discussion id : 118-029 most recent 20 AUG 19 SHOW ALL

Initial post 15 AUG 19 by odinthor

Just to put on record: 'Minnie Francis' is mentioned in Modern Roses III (1947) as "A favorite and important rose in Florida." Are there any Florida foundlings going around which could be 'Minnie Francis'?	REPLY

Reply #1 of 10 posted 16 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

It had occurred to me that the dark pink rose posted by Vesfl in the 'Dr Grill' file might possibly be 'Minnie Francis' because it bears a resemblance to the New Zealand photo, and it doesn't match 'Dr Grill'. It's in the Louis Armstrong Rose Garden in New Orleans, Louisiana, so not exactly Florida but on the same latitude as Jacksonville where the Griffing Bros were located. However the 1904 photo of 'Minnie Francis' seems to show quite glossy foliage and there's that reference too that the leaves were quite small. Yet Vesfl's 'Dr Grill' photo does show a large bush. Just some food for thought.

Reply #2 of 10 posted 16 AUG 19 by odinthor

That's a good thought! The rose in Vesfl's pic looks as if eventually the flowers would open out fully; and unless I misremember, 'Minnie Francis' was described at least once as having "open" flowers . . . which is not all that common in Teas.	REPLY

Reply #4 of 10 posted 18 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

For what it's worth, Griffing Brothers had nurseries in Florida and South Texas. And 'Minnie Francis' originated in Charleston at a nursery owned by the Noisettes (descendants of Philippe Noisette). Virginia	REPLY

Reply #5 of 10 posted 18 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

The photo of the bright pink rose in the New Orleans park that vesfl posted as 'Dr. Grill' looks a lot like photos I've seen of 'Pink Peace'. I don't know it or grow it, so I could be way off, but compare her photo to this one
https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.210363

In a public park, tags can get moved, and (as with any garden) the plant could be mis-labeled before planting.

I am not an expert rosarian, but the flower and foliage look HT-ish to me. What do you think?

Virginia

Reply #6 of 10 posted 19 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

The photo of the entire bush shows how large it is (compare it to the adjacent park bench). https://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.314631 I'd say it's a tea for sure. I only grow 'Candy Stripe', the sport of 'Pink Peace', but I doubt it would grow that big. But true the colour is very similar to 'Pink Peace'.	REPLY

Reply #7 of 10 posted 19 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

I didn't notice the photo of the entire plant, just the bloom photo. I agree that a plant that size in not likely to be 'Pink Peace'. The old illustrations of 'Docteur Grill' are not bright pink, so it clearly isn't with the correct record. Perhaps it is 'Minnie Francis', but the old photos don't show those large, long leaflets. How does it compare to the Aussie 'Papa Gontier'? Virginia	REPLY

Reply #8 of 10 posted 19 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Virginia, it's an interesting thought that the Australian 'Papa Gontier' might be 'Minnie Francis'. The Tea Rose book says that the Aussie 'Papa Gontier' was "Reintroduced 1970s from Aust. source" and also describe how it was praised and valued by Nancy Steen, who was a New Zealand rosarian. I do wonder if our 'Papa Gontier' was in fact reintroduced from New Zealand via Nancy Steen, and might be the NZ 'Minnie Francis'. This is simply idle speculation on my part of course. There are some good early catalogue photos of 'Minnie Francis' including details of buds, so a close comparison might be worthwhile. As I've mentioned before, I have doubts that the Aussie 'Papa Gontier' is correct.

Reply #9 of 10 posted 19 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

I seem to recall reading that there were two different 'Papa Gontier' roses in commerce in the U.S., and that it wasn't clear that either of them was the same as the Aussie 'PH'.

Do you know of any quotations from Nancy Steen about 'Minnie Francis' that could be added to the references page?

One reason I thought my rose might be 'Minnie' is because her petals bases are yellow, which often gives the petals an orange-y glow, as is described in the references.

Virginia

Reply #10 of 10 posted 20 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

I don't know of any specific references from Nancy Steen. The Tea Rose book just talks about her like of Papa Gontier in general terms. There are some digitised New Zealand newspaper online but I couldn't find any reference at all to 'Minnie Francis' the rose. I haven't been able to find an Australian newspaper reference to 'Minnie Francis' yet either. It does seem to be a rose that was popular regionally in the US South but not really much anywhere else. It seems odd that it should turn up in NZ, but the descriptions of it do make it sound very vigorous, so it probably has longevity and survived for this reason. I daresay that there are probably survivors of 'Minnie Francis' across the US South waiting to be rediscovered. At least I hope so.

Reply #3 of 10 posted 18 AUG 19 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

As recently as the early 1970's there was an article printed in several Florida newspapers recommending 'Minnie Francis' as one of the best roses for Florida.

A foundling that I would love to know more about (especially since the one photo I've seen resembles a mystery pink Tea that I have) is "Laurel Hill":
https://www.rosepetalsnursery.com/20/678.html

My pink Tea is somewhat variable in color and form (as you can see in the photos at my flickr page); I grew it next to 'Mrs. B. R. Cant', and they were similar, but not the same. 'MBRC' wasn't as happy here, and died.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/87333171@N08/albums/72157645886830127/

I don't know if my Tea is a long-lost 'Minnie', but that rose was 'born' here, so that might explain why it does so well for me.

Virginia

Discussion id : 74-940 most recent 9 MAR 18 SHOW ALL

Initial post 4 NOV 13 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Reply #1 of 10 posted 4 NOV 13 by HMF supporting member

Jay-Jay

Reply #2 of 10 posted 4 NOV 13 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Thanks Jay-Jay. That explains it. I'll change the colour of 'Minnie Francis' from "yellow, deep pink shading" to red. (It looked brick-red to me, but then, bricks come in all sorts of colours, don't they.)	REPLY

Reply #3 of 10 posted 4 NOV 13 by HMF supporting member

Jay-Jay

Reply #4 of 10 posted 5 NOV 13 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Aah Jay-Jay. wish that I could. Copying and pasteing that address never works for me. Don't know what I do wrong, but I might look further into it one long languid afternoon when I need something to do. Am running too fast this glorious spring to even contemplate investigating. My regards. P	REPLY

Reply #5 of 10 posted 6 NOV 13 by HMF supporting member

Jay-Jay

Reply #6 of 10 posted 8 MAR 18 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

I was also puzzled by chamois-red, but that phrase is also used to describe 'Charles de Legrady', which is also described as carmine. So I have changed the description to carmine-pink, and added the crimson shading from the references.

I also added a note at the description page about "chamois red" before I noticed this discussion.

Patricia, do you recall where you saw a color photo/illustration? I'd love to see it since I'm wondering if my NOID pink Tea could be a long-lost 'Minnie Francis'. The buds & bloom look the part in the (not-very-clear) b&w photo I found.

Virginia

Reply #7 of 10 posted 8 MAR 18 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

If the very early references say "chamois red", I think it best if we retain this colour in the description, rather than in a Note. You can actually add this colour in the section: Additional Color & Bloom Description English:
I have added a few more references for 'Minnie Francis' but they are meagre.
The photo is in Trevor Griffth's 1983 book and I will upload this as it is in the interests of research and I hope that will be okay.
On one of my visits to New Zealand I made the following note:

Trevor Griffiths Rose Garden – Monday, December 19, 2005 (2nd visit)
Later in the day – stopping to have lunch and looking at the bed planting list for this bed.
The listing shows: Baby Faurax – not there; Dorothy Howarth – in situ; Paul Crampel – in situ; Nypels Perfection – in situ; White Cecile Brunner – in situ. Kathleen Mills (a pale pink HT) – not there; Archiduke Charles – not there; Princesse de Sagan – in situ; General Schablikine – in situ; Lady Hillingdon – in situ.. Lilac Charm – in situ; Minnie Francis (a red tea) – not there.

I also had a look at the New Zealand Rose Register which shows it as once growing at Trevor Griffiths nursery, However, it is not listed as growing elsewhere in New Zealand.

Reply #8 of 10 posted 8 MAR 18 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

I didn't add "chamois red" to the description because I found it confusing. Like you, I assumed that chamois just meant yellow. I still have no idea why that term was used to describe anything that was pink, so didn't plan to perpetuate the confusion?

I had no idea that 'Minnie' had made it to NZ; I figured her distribution was limited to the southern U.S. Is it likely that a rose might get imported to NZ, but not to Australia?

If you can upload the photo, I look forward to seeing it.

Thanks,
Virginia

Reply #9 of 10 posted 9 MAR 18 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

.....Is it likely that a rose might get imported to NZ, but not to Australia?

Yes. it is possible. Griffiths exchanged wood with Ross Roses in Australia but I haven't read of 'Minnie Francis' in Australia and I haven't indexed Ross' old catalogues. Billy Teabag might be able to help you further on any sign of it in Australia. Margaret Furness once found something ("Hackney workman's cottage") that reminded her of Griffiths' photo, but I don't think that one survived some tenants non-care.

Daphne Whitfort-Smith, from New Zealand, wrote in the Heritage Roses in Australia journal 30-2-19 in her article on Trevor Griffiths:
In 1968 there was a month-long nurseryman's tour of California
In 1972 the first batch of budwood arrived from the Thomasville Nursery in Georgia, USA.
In 1974 Tillotson's Roses in California, later known as Roses of Yesterday and Today, sent budwood in 1974.
(I have just quickly looked through most of the Roses of Yesterday and Today that I have from that period and cannot see it listed)

Reply #10 of 10 posted 9 MAR 18 by HMF supporting member

scvirginia

Thanks, Patricia. That rose was certainly under my radar until recently, but it stayed in commerce for quite a long stretch, which does make me think there are probably still some plants around. Of course, 1968 was 50 years ago... how time does fly.

Thanks so much for uploading the photo. It looks very much like my foundling with the strongly veined deep pink petals, and buds with sepals just like the bud in the bottom right corner...

Virginia