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'Princeps' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 117-546
most recent 21 MAR 20 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 13 JUL 19 by HubertG
The parentage of seedling no. 4141 (confirmed in the 1955 reference to be 'Princeps') is given as a cross between 'Hadley' and R. gigantea in the 1938 and 1939 newspaper articles. This confirms the references, at the time of its introduction as 'Princeps', that it is a Hybrid Gigantea.

My observations from growing 'Princeps' is that apart from the large, elegant semi-double flower and climbing tendency there isn't much in its appearance of R.gigantea itself. Neither does the foliage shape show much Gigantea influence. However, in other respects this cross makes perfect sense. My 'Princeps' doesn't set hips, and this strongly suggests that it is a triploid which is what one would expect from crossing R. gigantea with a Hybrid Tea. Also, the velvety crimson colour and the beautiful, strong damask scent can be explained by 'Hadley' being one parent, and its spring-only flowering characteristic can be explained by having R. gigantea as the other parent.

It isn't very clear from the two newspaper references whether the cross is ('Hadley' x R. gigantea) or (R.gigantea x 'Hadley') but if I had to take an educated guess I would say 'Hadley' was the seed parent, simply because from a practical point of view it would have been easier to pollinate 'Hadley' with the pollen of Gigantea, rather than vice versa. Also the 1938 reference appears to have come from Clark himself, and the 1939 reference is a bit more vague.

I'd also add that Clark's description of it as 'straggling' is right on the mark for me although I don't give mine anything to climb on. It is a beautiful flower and perfume though and despite it only flowering once a year, I wouldn't want to be without it.
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 14 JUL 19 by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Valuable research as always. I have added the 1938 parentage, with a qualifying Note.
‘Hadley’ was also said to be a spindly rose, and my last plant of ‘Hadley’ has always been so.
Your observation that ‘Princeps’ doesn’t set hips is backed up by no descendants. Would its pollen have been fertile I wonder?

I have a very vague memory of a photo of Alister’s R. gigantea covered with little white bags after pollination, but I might be confusing myself.
(Later edit. I certainly was. The photo was of ‘Gustave Grunerwald’ from 1928, page 21.:
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 14 JUL 19 by HubertG
I used the pollen of 'Princeps' on a few crosses last spring which did take. One ('Lorraine Lee' x 'Princeps') contained 19 seeds, so presumably the pollen is good. None have germinated yet. I made this cross not realising at the time that R. gigantea was a parent of 'Princeps', so should anything result from this cross it will have Gigantea on both sides.
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 1 AUG 19 by HubertG
Just a follow-up note: for what it's worth, two seedlings from my ('Lorraine Lee' x 'Princeps') cross popped up today, so I presume 'Princeps' pollen is good.
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 2 AUG 19 by Jay-Jay
Possibly You mean Gustav Grünewald, Patricia?
https://books.google.nl/books?id=qPTEeJmZ5CQC&pg=PA163&lpg=PA163&dq=gustav+gr%C3%BCnewald+rose&source=bl&ots=QHrb4eQSNA&sig=ACfU3U1Jr3S-eTi5uwO62ddQitzkTIbgFg&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjC442M3-PjAhWNsaQKHVOhBoUQ6AEwD3oECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=gustav%20gr%C3%BCnewald%20rose&f=false
Or maybe Grünerwald?
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 2 AUG 19 by jedmar
Gustav Grünerwald it is. English and French language literature have their problems with the German Umlauts.
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 18 MAR 20 by HubertG
Just a follow-up on my 'Lorraine Lee' x 'Princeps' seedlings:- this is the first one to set a bud, which is long and pointed like 'Lorraine Lee' but the colour I think will be closer to 'Princeps'. The sepals are leafy and there are only four of them. I don't know if this isn't uncommon on young seedlings, or perhaps it might have to do with this potentially having a strange ploidy, being a diploid x probable triploid?
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 21 MAR 20 by HubertG
With an elegant bud, it ended up only having four main petals too. It will be interesting to see if it stays that way. It was velvety and crimson as well, with a scent like 'Lorraine Lee' with some added damask fragrance. I can see why Clark would want to use the pollen of 'Princeps' on 'Crimson Glory' as mentioned in the references.
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 21 MAR 20 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
It will likely end up with five petals and the odd petaloid.

They love to default to their ancestral form. The key is growing out many offspring and selecting accordingly.

Nice work!
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 21 MAR 20 by HubertG
Thanks, Robert! However it eventually turns out, I'm rather pleased with 'unintentionally' creating a Hybrid Gigantea!
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Discussion id : 120-560
most recent 21 MAR 20 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 17 MAR 20 by HubertG
I was wondering if anyone might have access to the 1944 Australian Rose Annual to upload the black and white photo of 'Princeps' on page 23 (as described in the references here)? I'd be very interested in seeing it.
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 21 MAR 20 by Patricia Routley
Photo added. It is fairly blurry.
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 21 MAR 20 by HubertG
Many thanks, Patricia. I think it's actually a good photo. It's interesting that two years after its introduction it's recorded as a Hybrid Gigantea (which we now know it is). Good detail of the foliage too. Thank you.
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