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'Madame Bérard' rose Reviews & Comments
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Initial post
1 MAR 09 by
cree
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Today on an Oz rose list someone asked about Mme Berard. Wanted to know if it was good rose and so forth.
In Australia the rose usually sold as Mme Berard is the rose E. Veyrat Hermoanos on HMF. So anyone answering his questions would have been talking about E. Veyrat Hermoanos.
However I asked him where he had been researching this rose. His information was coming from HMF and another US web site. So he was talking about the rose on HMF called Mme Berard. It is very likely that this fact, that he was not talking about the same rose would not have come to light. He also had used HMF to locate a nursery, where he could have bought the "wrong" rose, not the rose he was looking at on HMF.
There is nothing on the Mme Berard page to warn readers from Australia that this is not the same rose sold under that name in Australia. This could make HMF, in the case of this rose, very misleading to Australian readers.
Can a sentence be added to the page for Mme Berard stateing the rose in Australia called Mme Berard likely not the same rose shown and that they might want to look at E. Veyrat Hermoanos?
I am not sure, but I think the rose he is really looking for would be most similar to the rose called Adam in Australia, but others who know more would have to verify this (and should also verify the above).
Please note I am not questioning, nor want any comments about the true identity of any of these roses. I would just like clarification on HMF about the names they are sold under in Australia so the readers are aware.
Thanks Deb
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It would be very helpful to have this sort of practical information added to the notes.
I can confirm that the rose currently in commerce in Australia under the name Mme Berard is E. Veyrat Hermanos.
If the person is looking for the rose pictured on the Mme Berard entry of HMF, they will, as Cree suggests, find it under the name Adam in Australian nurseries (and also in most rose nurseries around the world.) The same rose can be seen pictured in both the Mme Berard entry and the Adam entry.
If in doubt, it's worth checking the stems for prickles. Mme Berard / the rose sold as Adam has a tendency to many thornless canes, while E. Veyrat Hermanos is reasonably well armed. Mme Berard / the rose sold as Adam sets many hips if not dead-headed while E. Veyrat Hermanos does not.
Billy
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#2 of 21 posted
1 MAR 09 by
 jedmar
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There is only one nursery listed for Australia under 'Mme Bérard'. Is it not possible to get them change their naming? I think it might also help to delete the nursery from the Mme Bérard listing and to add it to E. Veyrath Hermanos. For that, definite and clear statements from rosarians in Australia are needed.
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#3 of 21 posted
1 MAR 09 by
cree
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Hi Jedmar,
There may be only one nursery listed on HMF for this rose, but many nurseries in Australia use this name for the rose. My opinion is, it would be very difficult to get nurseries in Australia to change the name of their roses so that they conform with a listing on HMF.
It also seem unreasonable for HMF to expect their Australian readers/ members to fix all the wows of Australian roses, just so they can have Australian roses clearly represented on HMF. After all, roses in the USA and Europe are not always named correctly or conflict with another rose under the same name, yet they are represented on HMF in their incorrect state.
This is how I am understanding what you are saying
for any rose...
1. Sold in Australian (has nursery listed on HMF),
2. that has the same name as a different rose listed on HMF
3. HMF wants the nurseries in Australia to change the name of the rose
4. HMF will not make a statement in the notes that a rose sold in Australia is a different rose to the rose shown on HMF.
5. Nor will HMF list a rose on a separate page (such as Mme Berard-Australia).
Do I understand the HMF policy regarding Australian roses?
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I'd guess that things are evolving, rather than HMF having a policy as such on these matters.
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#5 of 21 posted
1 MAR 09 by
cree
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Yes I agree, policy is too strong a word and not really what I meant. Sorry just slipped back into work talk.
Deb
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I think it could become very unpractical very quickly.
To bounce back on your Mme Berard example.
In New Zealand, Adam is Mme Berard-not E. Veyrath Hermanos not Mme Berard-Australia...
It could mean we end up with x entries for Mme Berard.
I am not too keen on that one...
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#7 of 21 posted
1 MAR 09 by
cree
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Hi Rosarosam,
I do not think a statment in the notes on the MB page saying that the rose in Australia is not the same as the one shown is confusing at all.
Otherwise readers from Australia think they are reading about/buying a different rose that what they will get in this country and this is confusing.
Deb
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A note should not be a problem.
Jocelen.
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#9 of 21 posted
1 MAR 09 by
cree
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Thanks for that!
I would also like to take this conversation a step further however.
In this case the rose in Australia is listed on HMF under another name EV, so the reader can be directed in the notes to that rose for information.
However, where there is not a rose on HMF that is the same as the rose sold in Australia, what them? Souv d'un Ami might be an example?? It means the rose in Australian is not represented on HMF anywhere. I would like for them to be represented so I and other readers can learn about them. One example where this has already happened on HMF is Menetti in Australia. I don't find this listing confusing at all.
Again true identity is not the issue, it is making HMF friendly and informative to Australian readers.
Thanks Deb
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#10 of 21 posted
2 MAR 09 by
Cass
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Deb, thanks for your suggestions. While we may have inadvertently given you the impression that anything can happen instantly with a few keystrokes, certain matters involving the integrity of the data in the HMF database must be carefully considered. The suggestion to handle these Teas the same as "Manetti in Australia" sounds the best off the top of my head. Please give us at HMF a few days to consider how best to handle this issue. We want to consistent and intelligent, considering all ramifications. The first decision is not always the wisest. In a word, patience, please.
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#11 of 21 posted
2 MAR 09 by
cree
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Hi Cass,
Please do not think I am being negative about HMF, on the contrary I think the world HMFand all those involved and know they go above and beyond!
I know I am being pushy and I apologies if that came across as anything other than motivated. Thank you so much for taking the matter into consideration with the hope of finding some solutions!
This is terrific!
Deb
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Hi Deb and others... Doesn't this facility already exist in the references section? I'm assuming this information is quoted somewhere and if so could be referenced with each variety (though I don't know how references are added here on HMF). One often sees notes added to various varieties saying there are differeing opinions regarding the parentage of such-and-such a rose... see the references for more details. There are notes to say, for instance, that the Parks Yellow Tea (http://helpmefind.com/plant/pl.php?n=4660) in commerce is not the original one and a different listing has been made for the one in commerce. Would it not be a simialr situation with conflicting IDs such as this to just make a note somewhere by adding a comment to the variety's listing so that it can be added when convenient. I've done that in the past with other varieties and the HMF staff have been right on it making the changes within a very short time. As you say Deb, roses are incorrectly IDed all over the world. It is frustrating though for people just starting to learn about Teas (for example) in Australia like me who has a tub full of cuttings including some 20 different Teas to read that there is such confusion.
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#13 of 21 posted
2 MAR 09 by
cree
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Hi Simon
I think is important to not confuse two different problems.
One is the issue I am discussing, being a rose that has a different name in one country than it has in another country. I am confident that HMF will solve this problem.
The other is roses that are incorrectly ID'd. This is totally a different problem, and not what I am addressing in this discussion.
Wow 20 new teas..!!! You have gone in head over heels! Let us know how they go for you.
Deb
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OK... what spiked my interest is that one of my Tea cuttings is labelled MME Berard and another is labelled Souv d'un Ami... both of which get mentioned here as being roses sold under different names. Under what circumstances are these roses called different things to what they really are? A lot of roses have multiple names like 'Top Gear' here is known as 'Little Artist' in the U.S. ... so is this a simple matter of adding synonyms then??? I'm getting a little confused LOL
Yep 18 anyway (including gigantea in the Teas list but I know it's a species... just seems fitting to speak of it in the same group) and with the two I already had will bring me up to 20. All the cuttings look pretty good so far and there are multiples of each one so I'll be passing them around if I get multiple takes. Isobella Sprunt is the only one that doesn't look like it will take.
Monsieur Tillier
Souvenir de MME Leonie Viennot
MME Berkeley
Devoniensis
Rosette Delizy
Mrs Herbert Stevens
Mrs Dudley Cross
Souvenir d'un Ami
Fortune's Double Yellow
MME Berard
Reve d'or
Isabella Sprunt
Montrosa
Unknown Tea (with any luck this one will take so I can post pics of it)
Hugo Roller
MME Driout
Lady Hillingdon
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Rosa Gigantea (Species)
Then I'm going to have to sit down with the Tea book to read about each more more fully.
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#15 of 21 posted
2 MAR 09 by
cree
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Hi Simon, maybe Billy or others can chime in on this.
But there are many ways a roses gets a different name in one country than another. I think some of ours were imported and the rose they sent held onto the name it was given. Some just get ID'd by someone and they made a mistake, but the name sticks. it is not the same as with modern roses where different vendors patent the same rose with a different name. There are no patents to chase down on these roses.
Anyway,
Mme Berard - (in Australia) will likely be E. V which you can look up on HMF.
Souv d'un Ami -(in Australia) is not on HMF. Tea Book is the only place I know to find information on it.
Mons Tillier...hum, for the darker pink warm toned rose look at Archiduc Joseph and Mon Tillier, but for the red-pink climbing MT look at Marie Nabonnand. (this changes daily so anyone feel free to correct this).
Montrosa is Montrose. This is a study name, Reliable sells it , cream I think and I can not recall anything else. Billy?
Mme Driout is an early HT, don't know if it is Id correctly here in OZ, Billy?
Reve d'or is a tea/noisette.
You should get the Tea book, all of this is covered...that's how I pretend to know this stuff....LOL
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Where did your unknown Tea come from, Simon? It really needs an identifying name ("... Tea ROR"), preferably given by the person who collected it, and ideally based on where it was found. Otherwise it could get confused with the various other foundling Teas.
And of course, if we haven't got it already, I'll want it for the Tea Collection at Renmark...
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Hi Margaret,
I think the unknown tea is only unknown because the person who supplied the cuttings has forgotten the name, received it unknown herself, or has mislaid the tag. I don't think it's unknown in the 'found rose' sense. I shall ask some questions for you about it though.
I have recently ordered the Tea book and am awaiting it's arrival :)
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Thank you.
While you're waiting for the Tea Rose book to come, you can find some info on what various Teas (or roses sold as Teas) in Australia might be, on the HRiAI website. wwww.heritage.rose.org.au, click on Resources, then on Tea-Noisette-China Collection, then on Plant List. The "Montrose Tea ROR" isn't there yet, but we'll probably plant one near Lady Alice Stanley and Mme Abel Chatenay, as those possibilities have been suggested for its ID. It's a lot easier to compare roses when you don't have to walk far between them.
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Thanks Margaret,
I have just received the Ruston's catalogue too and Anne has included a new list of their available Teas so I've been sitting down with this list as well trying to find information on each. I'm really interested in ones that appear to be very fertile seed parents actually and am hoping I'll be able to learn more about this side of Teas when the Tea book arrives. We have been discussing (online) with Deb and others the chances of Teas doing well in Tasmania and am also hoping the book will discuss some of these issues as well.
Cheers,
Simon
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Hi Simon
When your book arrives, just check Appendix IV.
Information about identities, misnamings and duplications we were able to confirm is summarised in the right hand column of that Appendix.
Billy
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Thankyou Billy,
I can't wait till it arrives :) I've just (today) received an email form my local library alerting me that the Tea book I reserved has just arrived and is waiting for me to collect so I'll be able to start reading before my copy arrives :)
Simon
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This is a wonderfully healthy rose in my organic garden here in Richmond VA, USA. It's mother on the other hand, Gloire de Dijon turned black its first year, defoliated and promptly died. As much as everyone raves about that one, I will not try her again, she has too many wonderful daughters out there that grow just fine.
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