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'Marquise Boccella' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 139-019
most recent 22 FEB 23 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 22 FEB 23 by odinthor
The dating of the reference to C. Verdier offering 'Jacques Cartier' as unforced grafts, referring the quote to Revue-Horticole of May 16, 1889, is incorrect. The correct reference is to Revue-Horticole of May 16, 1869 (in other words, 1869, not 1889), and the page reference should be 181-182, not just 182.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 22 FEB 23 by jedmar
Thank you, corrected!
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Discussion id : 130-127
most recent 9 JAN 22 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 14 DEC 21 by BethJ
Available from - Palatine Roses
https://palatineroses.com/product/jacques-cartier/?v=8d32a16ae306
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 9 JAN 22 by ColleeninMhd
I got one, now where do I plant it?
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 9 JAN 22 by Lee H.
Based on my first-year experience, I wouldn’t be too afraid of a shady position. Mine did exceptionally well in Z6, despite perhaps only 6 hours of sun at mid-summer.
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Discussion id : 105-734
most recent 1 JUL 21 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 27 SEP 17 by Andrew from Dolton
So, is this rose 'Jacques Cartier' or 'Marchesa Boccella'?
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 12 MAR 21 by pvaz
That's what I've been asking myself... I wish I could tell them apart too.

I have four plants labeled as Jacques Cartier/ Marchesa Bocella (interchangeably) from two different nurseries. The one from nursery #1 only blooms once a year. The other three from nursery #2, were in constant bloom last summer.

They look exactly the same: same growth pattern, leaf shape and color, bloom size, fragrance and appearance. But they behave differently... I wonder if one is Marchesa Boccela and the other is Jacques Cartier?
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 29 JUN 21 by myd
The roses you got from nursery #2 that are blooming constantly- I would love to know which nursery you got them from.

I have read that this rose does well in my area (Maryland) and that it blooms constantly here. I would like to buy it, but I am hesitant because I have read that some versions of this bush are only blooming once. I think if I knew someone had bought it at a certain place and it was a repeat bloomer, I would feel confidant that the rose I buy from the same place would also be a repeat bloomer.

Also - If anyone else out there is growing this rose near Maryland 7a I'd love to hear your experience with this rose.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 1 JUL 21 by Nastarana
I bought a Marchesa Bocella from Connie Hilkins when her nursery was still open. What I have does repeat but not continuously. It is a lighter pink than that shown in the picture. I don't recall quite such extravagant sepals; I will have to check for that when the next bloom cycle occurs.
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Discussion id : 73-937
most recent 17 DEC 20 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 5 SEP 13 by Tessie
I have a rose purchased as Marquesa Boccellla from the Antique Rose Emporium in Texas. It is a very small grower, really like a dwarf (2 1/2 feet afer almost 3 years, and arriving already as a big plant in a 2 gallon container) but very healthy and with plenty of clean foliage. Flowers are very fragrant and flat. The flowers do not fit the description of Jacques Cartier as they are pale pink all over, not darker in the center at all, nor could they be described as "deep pink" (per "Le Rose", 1890 page 149) no matter in which month they've been blooming in my garden. The early descriptions (note HMF references from the 1800s) describe the flowers as globular and the growth as vigorous. According to "The Ultimate Rose Book" (1993, an HMF-listed reference) Jacques Cartier is said to be the offspring of Baronne Prevost, and that rose is very, very tall around here, and with a similar growth habit.

The problem here is that HMF has the 2 roses, Marquesa Boccella and Jacques Cartier, listed as synonyms of one another, as if to say they are the same rose. Certainly there may be roses in commerce mistakenly sold as the other, but how does it help matters to say 2 different roses, bred more than 20 years apart by 2 different breeders (Bred by Jean Desprez (France, 1842). Bred by Robert and Moreau (France, 1868.), are one and the same? Even if many of the roses in commerce as Jacques Cartier are really Marqusa Boccella, what happens if someone has the real Jacques Cartier? Must they list it on HMF as Marquesa Boccella and extend another id problem into the future?

I really have to wonder if they don't have the correct Jacques Cartier in some places in Europe. Whether they do or not, the real Marquesa Boccellas should not be called by the wrong name, especially knowingly. Perhaps HMF could just put a note at the bottom of the Jacques Cartier description page and note that many in commerce *in the US* are incorrectly being sold as Jacques Cartier.

Melissa
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Reply #1 of 14 posted 6 SEP 13 by jedmar
I agree that the current solution is unsatisfactory. The reason seems to have been that ARS has decided that all Jacques Cartier are actually Marchese Boccella. In Europe, this rose is sold mostly as Jacques Cartier. We also have indications that there are different clones in commerce, some more compact, some sturdy-growers.
For historic clarity, the two roses should be separated on HMF. The negative aspect will be that assigning photos, gardens, nurseries to one or the other will be a mess and will indicate a differentiation which is impossible to make without seeing the roses in situ.
Other comments on this subject are very welcome.
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Reply #2 of 14 posted 6 SEP 13 by Kim Rupert
That will likely be the problem here, too, Jedmar. I first became aware of this confusion somewhere around 1984-85. As with many other confused rose identification issues, there were those who were positive theirs was the one, true "real one". However, I've never encountered a rose sold as either name which wasn't the SAME rose. Whether they are actually one or the other, who can ever really know? But, the same rose has always been supplied as both names in commerce here in the US, except when the one supplied has been an obvious mistake, such as the once flowering type distributed as the "continual flowering" plant. Otherwise, what we have in commerce in the US is all the same. I wish someone could discover the "real" version of each, but after all these decades, I seriously doubt it will happen.
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Reply #3 of 14 posted 7 MAR 15 by flodur
1. The ARS is not god
2. The rose was bred in France, so the name has to be 'Marquise Boccella', allthough the correct name of the Marquis is Marchese Cesare Boccella.
3. 'Marquise Boccella' and 'Jacques Cartier' are two different roses, you just have to look at them and compare ALL DETAILS!
4. I didn't know. that HMF is now an organisation working for the rose nurseries and no longer dedicated to roses, as it was said on your page in the very beginning.
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Reply #4 of 14 posted 7 MAR 15 by Kim Rupert
HMF is not working for the ARS, rose nurseries or anyone else. It is a database which provides historic, "official" information from published references AND the personal experience of those generous enough to share it. What has been experienced here in the US has been shared. What would be wonderful, should you have the ability and desire to do it, since you appear to have access to what may be the original Marchese, is for you to write an article with accompanying photographs of the details, comparing what should be the original and the impostor for the HMF EZine.
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Reply #5 of 14 posted 7 MAR 15 by flodur
If that is the case - and I am happy about it - than you should make two roses out of it: 'Marquise Boccella' with the synonyme 'Marchesa Boccella' and 'Jacques Cartier'. It is not necessary to write an article about it. What grows in some gardens in USA is different from what is growing in some gardens in Germany and that is already documented.
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Reply #6 of 14 posted 7 MAR 15 by HMF Admin
"HMF is an organization working for rose nurseries" ? And you arrived at this ridiculous and insulting statement based on what exactly?

HMF has been a labor of love for more than a decade with many wonderful people freely giving of their time and energy to help maintain it.
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Reply #9 of 14 posted 8 MAR 15 by flodur
Honi soit qui mal y pense!
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Reply #7 of 14 posted 7 MAR 15 by Nastarana
It was my understanding, I do not at the moment remember from where, that one of the two had been lost from commerce, and its' name applied to the other.

It would seem that one rose is using both names in North America. If you or someone else in Europe grows or has access to both cultivars, perhaps someone could post pictures of each and give details of provenance?
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Reply #10 of 14 posted 1 MAR 16 by true-blue
L'Haÿ (Val de Marne) lists 4 different varieties of Jacques Cartier and one "MARQUISE BOCCELLA".
If you do a search with Jacques Cartier and then click on images you can see all 4.
I'll add a screen capture.
http://www.roseraieduvaldemarne.fr/roseraie/?page=65
For MB check for MARQUISE BOCCELLA.

Difference between the two according to them:
JC: Bush size medium, strong fragrance, blooms in flushes, very floriferous
MB-Bush size: big, medium fragrance, always in flower,medium floriferousness
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Reply #11 of 14 posted 16 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
So, I've just planted a 'Jacques Cartier' grown by David Austin, do you think it will actually be this rose or 'Marquesa Boccellla'?
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Reply #12 of 14 posted 16 MAR 17 by true-blue
It depends where they sourced it.
And it will take several years in order for you to be able establish, which is which, i.e. assuming that the "descriptions" correspond, and i.e. if the descriptions are accurate :-)

Bottom line, what matters most is that you enjoy the rose, regardless its name.
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Reply #13 of 14 posted 16 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Yes that is so very true, they both are beautiful roses and I will post some pictures in a few months when it is in flower. It was grown by David Austin, Austin roses are quite ubiquitous in most garden centres
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Reply #14 of 14 posted 17 DEC 20 by Duchesse
I know it's been awhile since your post, but this David Austin question has been on my mind. I see they sell alot of damask looking roses. They are getting a name as David Austin roses. But that company is merely selling some old roses and some of their own new breeding. Jacques Cartier is a very old rose, well before David Austin's time......sheesh.
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Reply #15 of 14 posted 17 DEC 20 by Margaret Furness
I think that's a misinterpretation - the Auston nursery/ies sell old and new roses, but don't claim to have bred the old ones.
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