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'Rosa indica var. ochroleuca Lindley' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 68-747
most recent 10 JUN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 13 DEC 12 by Patricia Routley
Re the Note:
"According to Mr. George Gordon (1806-1879), Superintendent of the Gardens of the Horticultural Society at Chiswick near London, 'Rosa indica ochroleuca' was extinct before 1842."

Was the 1842 reference that of an Arboretum's listing of plants, or did they mean it was extinct everywhere by that date. The 1846, 1848, 1851 and 1856 references seem to indicate that it was still out there by those dates at least.

"Extinct by 1882" is the date given by the 1884 and 1978 refs.
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Reply #1 of 31 posted 13 DEC 12 by jedmar
I have been wondering about the Old Yellow Tea for a long time, too. My hypothesis is:

- Park's Yellow (ochroleuca) was extinct before 1842
- A different yellow rose (flavescens) survived and got labeled as flavescens and/or ochroleuca. This would explain the later references to ochroleuca.
- Flavescens is the seedling of Rosa odorata, bred by Knight in 1823. It was distributed widely and is actually the real ancestor of all teas.

I would love to read the original records of the London Horticultural Society.
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Reply #2 of 31 posted 13 DEC 12 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Jedmar. I am sure these original records will surface in time. We have a whole world of people on holidays in London who get tired of looking at cathedrals etc. Perhaps someone could advise us how one goes about getting permission to examine these very early records.
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Reply #3 of 31 posted 7 FEB 13 by Rockhill
Interesting hypothesis, Jedmar.

I can only find two references for Knight's Rosa indica sulphurea, neither of which has a date for when the rose was bred. One is in Henry Andrews' Monograph of Roses etc, Vol. 2, published in 1828, although plates were said to be issued in parts before this, and the other is in the rose section of the 1988 revised edition of W J Bean's Trees and Shrubs Hardy in the British Isles, where 1826 seems to refer to a publication date, not that of the rose.

Were you able to find an additional reference giving 1823 as the date?
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Reply #4 of 31 posted 8 FEB 13 by jedmar
Yes. Have a look at the references under 'Flavescens' (tea, Knight, 1823). The date of 1823 is specifically mentioned by
- Sweet's Hortus Britannicus (1827)
- Hortus Woburnensis (1833)
Please also see the reference from 1842, which makes a distinction between Park's Yellow (ochroleuca) and Knight's Yellow China (flavescens).
The other references probably also pertain to Knight's rose, if we follow this hypothesis.
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Reply #5 of 31 posted 8 FEB 13 by Rockhill
Thank you for your reply, Jedmar.

I have looked at the 1830 2nd edition Sweet's Hortus Britannicus, which deals primarily with genera and species of plants. The entry on page 180 refers to a subspecies of Indica odorata - flavescens, a Yellow China, from China, 1823. Further down on page 181, there is an entry for the Banksia rose lutea which is also dated 1823. Both these roses were collected by Parks in 1823 in China and sent back to England where they arrived in 1824. They were not put into commerce until 1825. Sweet has used their collection date to identify them.

Parks' rose had many different popular names in English and French, as well as sub-specific ones in Latin or Greek, and I think this led to much confusion in later years.

There is no mention of Knight's rose in Sweet, even among the Indica garden varieties at the end of the relevant section. He did not call his rose flavescens, but Rosa indica sulphurea.
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Reply #6 of 31 posted 9 FEB 13 by jedmar
Thank you for your comments. What do you think of the statement in Loudon's Encyclopedia of 1842, where he diffentiates between R. indica ochroleuca (Park's - being lost by 1842), and R. indica flavescens, which according to the Superintendent of the gardens of the London Horticultural society, is the "true tea-scented yellow China Rose"? I interpret the latter as as having descended from Rosa odorata.
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Reply #7 of 31 posted 12 FEB 13 by Rockhill
This is a confusing entry, isn’t it? Rosa indica flavescens (Sweet) and R. indica ochroleuca (Lindley) were two early names for Parks’ tea-scented yellow China – they were not two separate roses. Parks’ rose itself was not lost by 1842. Four years earlier in 1838, Loudon says in his Arboretum, under the ochroleuca name, that it: “has rapidly become a great favourite, in pots and ornamental flower-gardens.”.

Mr Gordon is in some ways stating the obvious that flavescens was the original rose. Although he describes ochroleuca he does not do this for flavescens so we can’t see whether there is any difference between the two.

When ‘Hume’s Blush’ arrived in England in 1810, it was considered to be somewhat different from the other roses from that country that had been included in Rosa indica, so botanists gave it the name of R.indica subspecies odorata. The yellow rose that Parks collected in China in 1823 seemed to be similar in style to ‘Hume’s Blush’, so it was called R. indica odorata variety flavescens. That is how Sweet listed it in his Hortus Britannicus of 1826 and 1830. It later came to be known just as R. indica flavescens. This rose was also called by other varietal names meaning yellow, including ochroleuca. Nomenclature was not as cut and dried then as it is now!
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Reply #8 of 31 posted 4 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Arboretum et fruticetum Britannicum (1838)
John Claudius Loudon

p. 771
R. i. 11 ochroleuca Bot. Reg., the yellow China Rose, has large cream-coloured flowers, deepening almost into yellow in the centre. It was inroduced by Mr. Parks, in 1824, and has rapidly become a great favourite, in pots and ornamenal flower-gardens.

p. 2560
R. indica. 771., add to "Varieties:"
R. i. 12 flavescens Hort. -- This, Mr. Gordon assures us, is the true tea-scented yellow China rose, and not the preceding variety, which is generally confounded with it."

Note 5/28/17: The "Bot. Reg." reference is incorrect. Lindley assigned the name "ochroleuca" to Parks' Tea-scented rose in Trans. Hort. Soc. London (1826). The error can be traced to George Don (1832) whose confused description of Rosa indica var. ochroleuca included details properly belonging to R. banksiae var. lutea, including the illustration of the latter in Bot. Reg. vol. 13, t. 1105 (1827).
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Reply #10 of 31 posted 5 AUG 13 by Rockhill
In reply to this and your other post, I do not think that there is any evidence that the yellow rose raised by Joseph Knight from 'Hume's Blush' (R. odorata) is the rose depicted as R, sulphurea in Redouté. Knight's rose was featured in Henry Andrews' Roses in 1828 with no indication of when it was raised. Dates of 1823 and 1826 have been suggested but neither has been proven. If it had been bred in 1823, surely it would have made a sensation as yellow was a colour that had not been seen before in roses from China. 'Parks Yellow was collected in China in 1823, and arrived in England in 1824, where it was hailed as something completely new.

I have subsequently found out that Joseph Knight, who was not basically a rose breeder but an introducer of novelties from China, was a bitter and very public critic of the Royal Horticultural Society and the way that it distributed plants from China for propagation in England. He was not one of the nurserymen chosen to propagate 'Parks' Yellow' and he seems to resented this. Loddiges and Lee & Kennedy were among the chosen and we know that J-A Hardy acquired his plants of 'Parks' Yellow' from Loddiges in 1825 and took them back to the Jardin de Luxembourg, and that this yellow rose soon became very popular in Paris and elsewhere..
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Reply #11 of 31 posted 5 AUG 13 by CybeRose
I agree that Redoute's Indica Sulphurea was almost certainly the one Parks brought from China. Here, as elsewhere, it is easy to get tangled in synonyms, especially when new introductions are fertile and gardeners are willing to raise seedlings.

I am curious about 'Flavescens', mentioned by Loudon in 1838. Is it the same variety mentioned earlier in Ghent?

Salon d'été: XLIIIième exposition publique de la société royale d'Agriculture et Botanique de la Ville de Gand (1830)
M. F. Van Damme
Cultivateur, fleuriste, pépiniériste, avenue de la maison de détention.
932 Rosa flavescens, Odeur de thé.

And by William Paul in The Rose Garden (Section 2) 1848 p. 170
Rosa indica
... ochroleuca, with large double cream-coloured scentless flowers; flavescens, the true tea-scented yellow China Rose.

George Don also commented on the absence of perfume in Parks' Yellow China:
A General History of the Dichlamydeous Plants, Volume 2 p. 582 (1832)
Rosa indica var. ochroleuca; flowers double, large, cream-coloured, without any scent. This variety was introduced from China in 1824 by Mr. Parks, and is figured in the thirteenth volume of the Botanical Register. It is commonly called the yellow Chinese rose.

[I checked the 13th volume of Bot. Reg. The only rose in that volume is the double yellow Rosa banksiae.]
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Reply #12 of 31 posted 6 AUG 13 by Rockhill
flavescens seems to be the first subspecies name given to 'Parks' Yellow'.

1826. 1st edition of Sweet’s Hortus Britannicus, or, A Catalogue of Plants, indigenous, or cultivated in gardens of Great Britain etc. lists on page 178 lists 115 Rosa indica odorata β flavescens (st) yellow China China 1823 Further down the Yellow Banksia is listed as also dating from 1823. Both these roses were collected by Parks in 1823 and arrived in England in 1824, Sweet presumably had access to the Royal Horticultural Society, which would have been informed in 1823 that a yellow China rose and a yellow Banksia rose had been acquired – hence the given date of 1823. This has no connection with Knight’s rose which is not mentioned in Sweet’s list of cultivated Indica varieties, nor is there any mention of a rose with sulphurea in its name.

LIndley and others soon after called it by the Greek name for yellow, ochroleuca, but it is clear that this name refers to Parks' rose. There seems to have been some confusion between these two names later on eg in Loudon, 1842, and for all I know, there may have been similar seedlings which added to the confusion. It was sometimes also referred to as the Sulphur Rose or lutescens, another name for yellow.

Most of the early references to 'Parks' Yellow' - under all its names - say it was fragrant.

Nomenclature was not as cut and dried at this time, as it is now. Botanists were trying to give species and subspecies names to roses which were actually garden hybrids and there were experiments with R.indica, R. chinensis, R. bengalensis, R.odorata etc as holding species for some of the new roses to come from China.

I would say that the Ghent rose is probably Parks rose also. I have compiled a comprehensive document about 'Parks' Yellow, and all the references to it that I can find.. Thank you for the Ghent reference which I had not seen before.

I have posted a photograph of the relevant entry in Sweet,1826, in the entry for 'Parks' Yellow'.
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Reply #13 of 31 posted 6 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Le Bon Jardinier pour l'année 1826
A. Poiteau, rédacteur principal

p. xxxiij
Nous avons vu en fleurs, chez M. Cels, ce qu'on appelle Bengale jaune. C'est une sous-variété de la rose-thê, plus petite jaune serin pâle et presque semi-double. Elle conserve une faible odeur de la rose thé.

[We saw flowers, M. Cels, called yellow Bengal. This is a sub-variety of tea rose, smaller pale canary yellow and almost semi-double. It retains a faint smell of tea rose.]

On page lij, we learn that M. Noisette was selling a Bengale jaune in 1825.

[Compare with Pirolle's statement in Redoute that Hardy received the variety from Loddiges in England in 1825 or 1826.]
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Reply #14 of 31 posted 6 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Yet another obscure reference:

J. C. Hasskarl: Catalogus plantarum in horto botanico Bogoriensis cultarum alter. (1844).

R. flavescens Hrt. (1) hybrida Std. Nom.) S.

(1) Suffruticosa humilis, aculeis rameis raris sparsis recurvis, petiolis aculeatis, stipulis adnatis angustis apice patentibus, foliolis 3-5 ovatis s. ovato-oblongis coriaceis glabris acutis crenulato-serratis subtus glaucescentibus, floribus terminalibus solitariis, pedunculo & calyce muriculato-puberulis, calycis tubo subgloboso, limbo reflexo tubum plus 3-plum longo, laciniis integerrimis, petalis sat magnis flavescentibus plurimis. -- Affin. R. pygmaea Bieb. DC. Prdr. II. 604. 32 videtur.

Bogor (formerly Buitenzorg) is a city on the island of Java.

He lists flavescens separately from the Chinas and Teas.

I'm puzzled about the "Affin. R. pygmaea Bieb.", since De Candolle thought pygmaea was a variety of R. gallica.

Regel (Tentamen Rosarum Monographiae, 1878) also listed this species, paraphrased Hasskarl's description, and added "Crescit in insula Java."

I have read that Hasskarl sent his mss. to the Netherlands long before it was published in 1844. I don't know yet just how long.
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Reply #15 of 31 posted 6 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Another yellow Bengal.

Le Bon jardinier: almanach pour l'anneé 1821

p. 809
Cette année le docteur Cartier a obtenu dans ses semis de la rose dite bengale, une rose jaune double, qui M. Noisette, boucoup d'autres amateur et moi avons vu avec bien de l'intérét. J'attendrai à l'année prochaine, pour en donner une description plus détaillée.

p. 816
Ces tentatives ne sont cependant pas les seuls moyens d'obtenir la rose double capucine. D’autres rosiers que celui dont on l'espère, peuvent aussi la donner; puisque les roses dites Bengales ont donné par le semis cette année, une rose jaune à peu près de cette couleur. On pourrait dire qu’elle est due aux causes que je viens d'expliquer; non seulement il n‘y avait point d'églantiers-capucine dans le voisinage des plantes mères de la nouvelle Bengale jaune, mais encore la floraison des différentes roses aveu lieu separément. Il ne faut donc pas douter qu’à force de culture, on n'obtienne des couleurs et des variétés très-rares, la rose double capucine, comme d’autres qui ne seraient pas moins précieuses. C'est ainsi qu’un amateur peut espérer de se monter une collection d'une beauté toute particulière, s'il ne peut se contenter des plantes charmantes que déjà les autres amateurs possèdent.
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Reply #16 of 31 posted 6 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Essai sur les Roses (1824)
Vibert

p. 33
Chez l'étranger aussi, les roses ont le privilége d'exalter l'imagination et de troubler la vue, je n'oserais même affirmer s'ils n'ont pas plus que nous encore l'art de rendre souvent intéressant ce qui ne l'est guère. J'ai vu cultiver en serre, à Paris, et j'ai moi-même acheté l'arvensis, que les Anglais nous avaient vendu pour le bengale jaune. Heureux pays! où les roses, en changeant de nom, augmentent souvent d'une guinée, et nous reviennent quelquefois plus tard avec cette petite augmentation.

[This statement suggests that Cartier's yellow China was already being sold in England - perhaps the "true tea-scented yellow China rose" mentioned by Gordon.]

pp. 56-57
Un bengale jaune, double, est announcé en 1821: plusieurs personnes, dit-on, l'ont vu jaune et double chez M. Cartier, qui l'aurait trouvé de semence.
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Reply #17 of 31 posted 7 AUG 13 by Rockhill
All very interesting quotes. Will have a good look at them in the next few days and get back to you with my comments.
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Reply #19 of 31 posted 7 AUG 13 by jedmar
The quotes relating to Cartier's Bengale jaune of 1821 are very interesting. I have added these as references to 'Bengale jaune', whose synonyms may or may not be the same yellow china, or a family. In any case this proves that (light) yellow-coloured china seedlings have originated before Parks brought ochroleuca to England. We might therefore have:
- yellow chinas since 1821
- a yellow seedling of Hume's Blush (Knight, 1823)
- a yellow Tea (Park's Yellow, 1824)
The differentiation may be lighter/darker colours, resp. absence or presence of fragrance.
Compare also with 'Bengale d'Automne' by Cartier, another china seedling of 1822.
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Reply #21 of 31 posted 14 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Reading (translating) further in Vibert's Essai sur les Roses (1824) I learned that Cartier's double bengale jaune was a non-starter:

1) It died
2) It was not yellow, merely dull white (blanc terne)
3) It was not a Bengal

For whatever reason, the French referred to Rosa arvensis as the bengale jaune, according to Vibert.

Also, Vibert did not blame Cartier for the confusion, attributing it to "l'imagination un peu vive du rédacteur."
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Reply #22 of 31 posted 16 AUG 13 by billy teabag
Could you direct me to the reference that tells us Knight's seedling was bred or introduced in 1823 please?
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Reply #23 of 31 posted 17 AUG 13 by jedmar
This is based on Sweet's Hortus Britannicus of 1827, which gives a date of 1823 for flavescens. After that it seems to become a matter of faith: One line of thought places references to all early yellow Chinas as synonyms of R. indica ochroleuca (Park's Yellow), while the other, also sees other yellowish descendants of R. odorata in parallel. A strong support for the second line of thought is the reference of 1842, in which Gordon, Superintendent of the Chiswick Royal Horticultural Gardens apparently states that R. indica flavescens is distinct from R. indica ochroleuca.
The Yellow China is repeatedly mentioned together with the White China, which Andrews also described in 1828 when speaking of Knight's rose.
Parks arrived in England on May 13, 1824. I wonder how it would have been possible for his rose to be widely distributed and blooming at various places already in 1825. (Please see entry on John Damper Parks for details of his travel schedule in 1823/24 - Parks stayed in Canton for less than 5 months and was greatly assisted by John Reeves).
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Reply #24 of 31 posted 18 AUG 13 by billy teabag
Jedmar - I have not seen Sweet1827, but do have access to Sweet's Hortus Britannicus of 1826 and 1830 and both list R. Odorata flavescens as a native of China.
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Reply #25 of 31 posted 18 AUG 13 by jedmar
Vol. I of Sweet's Hortus Britannicus is dated 1826. The Version I have on file has a second cover dated 1827. I think it mus have been reissued in 1827 complete with Vol. I and II. In this 1827 Version, there is no origin listed for R. odorata flavescens, only in the 1820 Edition.

Let us look at another aspect: We have to assume that Lindley's description of R. odorata ochroleuca (Parks' Yellow) is correct. He says in 1826: the branches when young are covered with many small glands....leaf-stalks covered with glands....flower-stalk is glandular...The flowers are...solitary....very fragrant...
Andrews' description of Knight's Yellow China Rose: ....smooth peduncles....stem smooth...
Thory's description of Indica sulfurea (Bengale Jaune-Soufre): ...écorce glabre (smooth bark).......pétioles à stipules assez larges (petioles with quite large stipules)....fleurs terminales souvent en ombelles de trois et plus (terminal blooms often in clusters of three or more)...

Hasskarl in 1844 describes R. flavescens:...narrow adnate stipules....solitary terminal bloom....

We have two different groups of descriptions:
- glandular stalks, narrow stipules, solitary blooms, fragrant (Parks' Yellow)
- smooth stalks, broad stipules, clustered flowers, less fragrant (Redouté & Thory's rose = Knight's Yellow China?)

In later years, R. flavescens / R. odorata ochroleuca / Thea lutea / R. lutescens get more and more mixed up in commerce and authors cannot agree it the rose has strong or less fragrance; e.g. Paul in 1848 says ochroleuca is scentless, while flavescens is the true Tea-scented China rose.
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Reply #26 of 31 posted 19 AUG 13 by billy teabag
I agree that it is almost impossible for us to know which rose later writers were referring to when they used these names for yellow or yellowish Chinas/Teas but I did just want to go back to Sweet and the origin of the rose listed there as R. odorata flavescens. Sweet uses the long dash as an abbreviation for 'as above' indicating that the rose is a native of China. So although there are so many things we can't be sure of, I think we can be sure that Sweet's Odorata flavescens was a rose from China and not Knight's seedling.
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Reply #27 of 31 posted 4 SEP 13 by CybeRose
Jedmar,
I would not rely on Hasskarl. He thought the rose he described was akin to R. pygmaea. De Candolle thought that rose was a variety of Gallica, and the original author (Bieberstein) saw it as akin to R. alpina.

Flora Taurico-Caucasica (1808)
Friedrich August Marschall von Bieberstein
Rosa pygmaea
R. alpina. Pall. ind. taur.
R. non spinosa, fructu turbinato. Gmel. fig. 3. p. 177. n. 15. (excel. synon. Bauh.)?
Habitat in Tauriae herbidis campestribus: in collibus circa Bosphorum frequens. Floret cum praecedente. [R. pumila]

Please note that Bieberstein only stated that the *flowers* of R. pygmaea resembled those of R. pumila, which has sometimes been regarded as a form of R. gallica. That could explain why De Candolle regarded R. pygmaea as a variety of R. gallica.

Karl
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Reply #29 of 31 posted 28 MAY by CybeRose
Jedmar,
I wonder whether Knight imported Cartier's 'Bengale Jaune'. The report that Knight himself raised it from seed might have been a misunderstanding. Such things happen.

For example, was Hume's Blush imported or raised from seed?

Botanical Register 10: 804 (1824)
This is the sweet-scented China Rose of the gardens, which was originally raised from seed by Sir Abraham Hume, and by him distributed to the public.

H. C. Andrews: Roses II (1828)
This elegant plant was imported from the East Indies in 1809 by Sir A. Hume, Bart. and is a great acquisition to the British gardens;
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Reply #18 of 31 posted 7 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Roses cultivees en France: au nomber de 2562 especes ou varietes (1829)
By Narcisse-Henri-François Desportes

p. 102
2309 - jaune. - Thé soufre. - ochroleuca. Lindl. in Reg. Bot. - R. Chinensis, Thea sulphurea. Baum. Cat.

p. 115.
2. Variétés dont la place est incertaine.

2524 toison d'or (Lux. Hardy, 1825). Fl. jaune-clair.
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Reply #20 of 31 posted 9 AUG 13 by CybeRose
The Florist, Fruitist, and Garden Miscellany, Volume 5: 284-285 (1855)
JOSEPH KNIGHT, ESQ., LATE OF THE EXOTIC NURSERY, CHELSEA.—It is with much regret we have this month to record the decease of this venerable gentleman, which took place on July 20th, at Bitham House, Avon Dassett, Oxfordshire, the residence of his nephew, T. A. Perry, Esq., where he had principally resided since he relinquished the Exotic Nursery. Mr. Knight’s name is no doubt familiar to all our readers as one of the most respected, as he was also one of the most successful, horticulturists of the present century. Mr. Knight was the founder of the Exotic Nursery, and his uprightness and urbanity during the 50 years that he carried on that extensive establishment, had secured for him the esteem of all with whom he came in contact. There was, in fact, a peculiar suavity of manner and kindness of heart about Mr. Knight which, independent of his high professional character, endeared him to a widely extended circle, and we cannot name a single private individual who enjoyed so large a share of the confidence and respect of the aristocracy as did Mr. Knight. Numbers of the nobility were among his personal friends, and their late Majesties King William and Queen Adelaide were much attached to him, and paid him frequent visits. Besides the above, the Exotic Nursery was a great school for young men from the country to finish off their professional education and prepare for higher duties. Mr. Knight’s connection with the higher classes made him looked up to on both sides, and we believe we are quite correct when we say no one was ever the means of placing so many gardeners in situations as Mr. Knight, and a mutual confidence and respect for each other were thus founded between Mr. Knight and a large body of practical men—spread over nearly every part of the globe, which has ceased only with his death. Mr. Knight was an ardent lover of plants, to which circumstance, and to his enterprising spirit, we owe many of the most beautiful of our garden favourites. Among others, which he was mainly instrumental in introducing, we may note the tree Rhododendrons from Nepal, a vast number of New Holland and Chinese plants, including the lovely Chinese Azaleas, Lateritia, variegata, &c., and many others too numerous to particularise. Mr. K. was as well especially fond of coniferous plants. Since he relinquished business, two years ago, he devoted much of his leisure time to improving the estates in the county in which he had retired, and in planting exotic trees of recent introduction. Mr. Knight was born in September, 1778, and began his professional life as gardener to the then Duke of Bedford. He was afterwards gardener to George Hibbert, Esq., of Clapham, to whose considerate encouragement he attributed in a great measure the success which attended his commencement in business as a nurseryman. Mr. Knight connected himself in marriage with the ancient family of Lorymer. Mrs. Knight died a few years ago without leaving a family. Upright, persevering, of simple habits and unassuming manners, Mr. Knight affords a pattern worthy of our imitation. His application to business was rewarded by a large fortune, a considerable portion of which was spent in deeds of charity and benevolence. A Catholic by creed these acts show the earnestness of the principles he professed, while his kindness of heart was shared in by all. J. S.

[In 1853 Knight sold his nursery to James Veitch & Son, who changed the name to the ROYAL Exotic Nursery.]
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Reply #28 of 31 posted 28 MAY by CybeRose
Jedmar,
Forbes (Hortus Woburnensis, 1833) apparently copied from Sweet (1826). Both also gave 1823 (rather than 1824) as the date of introduction for Rosa banksiae var lutea.
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Reply #9 of 31 posted 4 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Roses; Or, A Monograph of the Genus Rosa - Volume 2 (1828)
Henry Charles Andrews

The rosa sulphurea, known by the appellation of the Yellow China Rose, was raised at the Nursery of Mr. Knight, from seed of the R. odorata. We have seen it paler, but never deeper in colour than we have represented it.
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Reply #31 of 31 posted 10 JUN by CybeRose
Jedmar,
There is extinct, and then there's "extinct". A rose may fall out of commerce and popularity, yet still remain in garden here and there.

And here's something I learned last evening on Wikipedia. Loudon began work on his Arboretum et Fruticetum Britannicum in 1830. It was issued as 63 installments from Jan. 1835 to July 1838. Thus, the 1838 date of publication refers to the completion of the work. The parts relevant to this discussion were distributed earlier.

I don't know the exact schedule, but the comment that ochroleuca "has rapidly become a great favourite, in pots and ornamental flower-gardens," may have been written as early as 1830, but was almost certainly sent out by late 1835 or early 1836.

The flavescens bit in the supplement to vol. 4 presumably appeared in 1837 or earlier -- there were still four more volumes to come out before the end of July 1838.

And so, Loudon's report of Gordon's comment would have been printed and distributed in time for Rivers (1837) to confuse 'flavescens' with Parkes' [sic] rose.

According to Loudon, George Gordon was Superintendent of the Arboretum in the Horticultural Society's Garden. He was a conifer specialist. I have not been able to find anything he published that was not conifer-related. His ambiguous assurance, that flavescens was the "true" tea-scented yellow China rose, must have been made by letter or in person. Rivers then jumped to the conclusion that flavescens was the rose that Parks (or Parkes) brought back from China.

In 1842, Loudon reaffirmed that Ochroleuca was the rose collected by Parks, but Rivers continued to repeat the error that Flavescens was Parkes' [sic] rose.

Further note: the English winter of 1837-8 was devastating. John Lindley read a paper on the subject before the Hort. Soc. of London on Dec. 4, 1838. It was printed in The Gardener's Magazine and Register of Rural and Domestic Improvement, Volume 6 (Sept 1840) starting on page 475. Roses were discussed on page 487.

"The white and yellow China Rose, the sweet-scented hybrid, Hamon, and Blairii, were entirely destroyed even in Hampshire; but the latter was injured on a south wall at Dropmore."

Karl
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Reply #30 of 31 posted 3 JUN by CybeRose
The story turns out to be a little more complex than I had thought. I recently learned of two more yellow China roses that were sent from China to Belgium.

Extraits de divers rapports faits à la Société Royale d'Agriculture et de Botanique de Gand (1826)
Plantes envoyées à la Société royale d'Agriculture et de Botanique de Gand, par M. Th. Beale, de Macao, le 18 Janvier 1826, remises à bord du bâtiment Cornelia Henrica, capitaine Sipkes, en retour de Batavia pour Amsterdam.
Caisse No. 4.
75 Rosa sinensis (yellow rose)
-----------------------
Expositions publiques de la Société d'Agriculture et de Botanique de la Ville de Gand, 25 Jan 1830
Il est encore résolu, qu'en témoignage de reconnaissance, la Société exposera des plantes pour M. Th. Beale (*), négociant à Macao, province de Canton en Chine;

(*) Liste des Plantas envoyées le 18 Janvier 1829, Par M. TH. BEALE, de Macao, et que M. le docteur Moke, à son retour en Europe à bord du bátiment Raymond, avait bien voulu se charger de remettre à la Société.

5. Rosa chinensis, jaune. Pas encore introduce en Europe
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It is further resolved, that in a token of gratitude, the Society shall exhibit plants for Mr. Th. Beale (*), a merchant in Macau, Province of Canton in China;

(*) List of Plants sent on January 18, 1829, by M. TH. BEALE, of Macao, and which Dr. Moke, on his return to Europe aboard the ship Raymond, had been kind enough to undertake to hand over to the Society.

5. Rosa chinensis, jaune. Not yet introduced in Europe
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Thomas Beale assisted Parks in acquiring the famous Tea-scented rose. Surely he (Beale) would have known which rose Parks had. The statement that the one sent in 1829 had not yet been introduced to Europe is significant.

Years earlier, Beale also assisted James Main (gardener to Gilbert Slater).

Beale also sent various garden forms of Hibiscus. I mention this to show that he could distinguish a rose from hibiscus.
REPLY
Discussion id : 76-072
most recent 16 JAN 14 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 16 JAN 14 by CybeRose
Gardeners' Chronicle vol. 1. no. 19. p. 600. (May 9, 1874)
By-the-by, I have had a Tea Rose in blossom in the vinery—of a sort I rarely see, and of which I really do not know the proper name. It used to grow over a cottage in Herefordshire, which I knew many years ago, and the Herefordshire nurseryman from whom I got my standard calls it "the old yellow China." Is this the right name, and is the Rose more common than I imagine? Its petals are loose and thin, and of pale primrose colour, and before it is fully out it is at its best. Its leaves are large and handsome, and of glossy green. Its blossom has a certain half-bitter scent of Tea about it, to which the scent of no other Tea Rose can at all compare—it is so strong and aromatic.
H.
[This passage is also in 'A Year in a Lancashire Garden' (1879) by Henry Arthur Bright]

Gardeners' Chronicle vol. 1. no. 21. p. 673. (May 23, 1874)
The Old Tea China, or Jaune of the French.
In answer to "H.," p. 600, I reply that the above is the proper name of what is commonly called the "Old Tea China." It is a long Magnolia-shaped flower, good only in bud. "H.'s" description of it is correct. It is not common now. There was one in the Blandford Nurseries a few years ago, and I believe it is there now; it was offered as a present to me, but I did not accept it.
W. F. Radclyffe.
REPLY
Discussion id : 73-550
most recent 14 AUG 13 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 14 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Annalen der Blumisterei volume 3 (1827)

Rosa indica flavescens, die blaß schwefelgelbe neue Theerose; sie ist weit größer wie die ordinaire Theerose, und hat einen ganz eigenthümlichen, starken Geruch. Preis im 24 fl. Fuß 5 fl.

Rosa indica flavescens, the pale sulfur-yellow new Theerose, it is far larger than the Theerose ordinaire, and has a very peculiar, strong smell.
REPLY
Discussion id : 73-524
most recent 13 AUG 13 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 13 AUG 13 by CybeRose
The Rose Amateur's Guide (1861) Page 139
Thomas RIVERS (Nurseryman.)
The Old Yellow Tea Rose bears seed abundantly; but it has been found, from repeated experiments, that a good or even a mediocre rose is seldom or never produced from it; but fertilised with the Yellow Briar, something original may be realised.
REPLY
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