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'Petite Lisette' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 125-101
most recent 19 JAN 21 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 18 JAN 21 by Kathy Strong
Available now in North America through Palatine Roses
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 19 JAN 21 by Palustris
'Petit Lisette' has been a reliable healthy rose with a tendency to sucker slightly for me in the last 15 years or so. It makes a nice 4' bush in zone 6 and its tendency to sucker means I have several plants around the yard. Mine came from Vintage Gardens.
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Discussion id : 94-253
most recent 6 JAN 20 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 3 AUG 16 by Hardy
This rose has been subject to two rounds of DNA testing that I know of, with interesting results. The 2006 paper, 'Characterization and Genetic Relationships of Wild Species and Old Garden Roses Based on Microsatellite Analysis,' placed it in a cluster with Centifolias, rather than Albas or Damasks. The dataset used for a 2016 paper, 'Nineteenth century French rose (Rosa sp.) germplasm shows a shift over time from a European to an Asian genetic background,' found that it had genetic markers in common with a group comprised almost entirely of rubiginosa hybrids, bred by Dupont, Vibert and Lord Penzance. Thus, it may not be a Damask with canina influence through an Alba cross, as traditionally supposed, but rather a centifolia with some (section canina) eglantine mixed in.

I had always wondered about Petite Lisette's distinctive foliage, with leaflets which are not very characteristic of any of the early garden rose classes, being relatively small, unusually shaped, and strangely shiny, yet with a release date that would seem to preclude most foreign imports. Now, looking at it and my eglantine, it makes complete sense, and I'm aghast that I never contemplated such an obvious possibility. I suppose if there's a moral to this, it might be that old roses are often more complex hybrids than we give them credit for, and that when something looks odd, like unexpectedly shiny foliage, or a peculiar lack of thorns, we might want to consider European species roses, which were everywhere, and as well loved by bees as any garden rose.
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Reply #1 of 9 posted 3 AUG 16 by Patricia Routley
In Western Australia I am growing two bushes which time has proved to be the same rose. I have recorded them as being 'Petite de Hollande' (and noted that someone suggested 'Spong' at one time). They both came to me as cuttings in 2001 - one from Carol Mansfield came as 'Petite de Hollande'; and the other from Donna Broun came as 'Petite Lisette'. I have never really done any research on them, but will see what photographs I have later in the day.
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Reply #2 of 9 posted 3 AUG 16 by Hardy
Hedgerow Rose posted a good shot of the foliage here, showing the shape, coloration, and size of leaflets, but not their sheen, at http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.245438 Maybe that will help you figure out which one you have.
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Reply #3 of 9 posted 4 AUG 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you Hardy. This is the rose that came as 'Petite Lisette'. Nothing at all shiny about the leaf at all. Quite matte from my photos it seems. Checking both this rose and and R. eglantine today, not even the hint of a rose leaf in sight.
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Reply #4 of 9 posted 4 AUG 16 by Hardy
Your rose does look a lot like a normal centifolia.

Here's one I just took of my Petite Lisette's foliage, for purposes of showing the sheen, and the light (un-Alba) coloration.
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Reply #5 of 9 posted 5 AUG 16 by Patricia Routley
I would hazard a guess and say that neither your rose, nor mine, might be the original 'Petite Lisette'. The 1829 reference says acuminate (narrowing to a sharp point) leaflets. Your leaflets appear to be oblong, oval, and a couple are quite orbicular.
The reference goes on to say the ovary (receptacle?) is glabrous (smooth) and glaucous (white) at the top, and the blooms age almost to white.
My blooms are small, pink, and I have never noted them fading to white.
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Reply #6 of 9 posted 5 AUG 16 by Hardy
I think this may be a case of uncertain translation. Brent Dickerson (The Old Rose Adventurer, p. 157) translated 'pointues' as 'pointed,' which would distinguish it from Damasks and Centifolias which have quite blunt foliage, but isn't as clearly specific as 'acuminate.' My knowledge of early 19th century botanical French is negligible, so I can't present a well informed argument for either possibility.

My alleged Petite Lisette conforms to the rest of the description.
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Reply #7 of 9 posted 5 AUG 16 by Patricia Routley
Or could that have meant the folioles are pointed? I have adjusted that reference as best I can but my knowledge of ANY other language is negligible too - a matter of much regret for me at this stage of my life,
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Reply #8 of 9 posted 6 AUG 16 by Hardy
To try and help resolve this, I went through Prevost's catalogue looking at how he described leaf shape. I noticed that he never used technical terms for the tips of the leaves, such as acuminate (in modern French, 'acuminé'), though he used a full range of botanical adjectives for their overall shape. He used 'pointues' 14 times, always referring to the tips of leaflets, several of which were otherwise elliptical, oblong or ovate. (He did not use it with lanceolate leaflets, where the point would be implied by the leaflet shape.) He said that some had leaflets which were acute or 'pointues,' and that others might be obtuse or 'pointues.'

I was left with an impression that when he says leaflets are 'pointues,' it encompassed what we would now call acuminate, apiculate, caudate, cuspidate and mucronate, which terms may not have existed in 1829. I'm liking Dickerson's use of 'pointed,' which has the benefit of being the translation in ordinary, non-technical French, because there is no single technical term which covers those five sorts of leaflet tips, so 'pointed' may be as close as one can get. None of Prevost's other descriptions of roses with 'pointues' leaflets have been entered and translated on HMF, so I'm happy to say that there are no other entries where this translation question might apply.
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Reply #9 of 9 posted 6 JAN 20 by jedmar
I have added a number of additional references to 'Petite Lisette', as I suspect the rose in commerce today is not the original alba-damask hybrid of Vibert. There is no evidence that 'Petite Lisette' was actually in commerce or gardens from late 1830s to 1955, when Graham Stuart Thomas mentions it again. Was this one of the roses which were "identified" by Arthur Wyatt? Gravereaux did not have it in l'Haÿ in 1902, which usually is a sign that it was not available at the time. It was also not in Sangerhausen in 1936.
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