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'Rosa triphylla Roxb. synonym' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 97-481
most recent 8 MAY SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 12 FEB 17 by JasonSims1984
I wonder why this rose hasn't been used in hybridizing very much. Those glossy leaves clearly offer some potential. Rugosa x laevigata ought to be a no brainer for a disease resistant and climate adapted line.
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Reply #1 of 12 posted 15 FEB 17 by Salix
People have tried! It does not cross easily.
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Reply #2 of 12 posted 16 FEB 17 by JasonSims1984
I see. Do its descendents have the same problem? Is it being used in tet crosses or dip? I kind of feel like creating a diploid line of roses could be a very profitable venture. Reinvent the hybrid tea as a diploid.

Hollandica looks kind of promising as a starting point.

(Moschata x Chinensis) x Rugosa.

Gigantea and chinensis are dip. It just needs the appropriate tea to get the right flower form. If no one else has done it, I certainly will.
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Reply #3 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
American Rose Annual, 16: 45-51 (1931)
Breeding Better Roses
Rev. George M. A. Schoener, Santa Barbara, Calif.

Eliminating mildew seems also possible through a new strain of hybrid Laevigata roses. Heretofore, it was claimed that R. laevigata, better known as Cherokee, does not make seed, and that other species and types would not take its pollen. Such is not the case, as hundreds of combinations were made with Laevigata as seed-bearer, using pollen from Hybrid Teas, Teas, Hybrid Perpetuals, and Pernetianas. Pollen of Laevigata used on Gigantea has proved that even the Gigantea foliage can be improved, making it much more rigid and glossy, a sure preventive of mildew. In the face of such success it is surely deplorable that the continuation of this experiment is most doubtful. Without further support, these far-reaching experiments are doomed, the more so as it is unlikely that Dr. Crocker will be able to take care of the germination work for the second generation, if nobody else finds it worth while to help push the work to a completion where it would be possible to write out reliable, mathematically correct findings to become the basis for others to carry on systematic rose-breeding.
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Reply #4 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
Rural New Yorker, Volume 67: 788 (Oct 10, 1908)
Walter Van Fleet (1908)
AUTHENTIC CHEROKEE HYBRIDS.—Notwithstanding the vigorous growth of the Cherokee rose under favorable conditions it appears difficult to produce artificial hybrids of sufficient vitality to grow to flowering size. We have made many crossings on the Rural Grounds, using a typical plant for the seed parent, and fertilizing with pollen from many desirable garden roses and rose species. There is little difficulty in growing the resulting hybrid seedlings for a season or two, but even with the most careful glasshouse treatment they decline and die before the blooming age is reached. We have propagated some of the most promising by cuttings, and have even budded them on the parent Cherokee but without success, all perishing without bloom, though canes six feet long have been produced. The only exceptions are two plants of Cherokee x Frau Karl Druschki, a white Hybrid Perpetual, that are now entering their third year with some promise of continued growth. A very striking common feature of the hundred or more Cherokee hybrids we have grown is the entire disappearance of the characteristics of the mother plant. In no instance were the hooked prickles and narrow glossy foliage of Cherokee reproduced. The general type even when pollen from the most diverse sorts was used, is dwarf and bushy, with slender straight thorns or spines and foliage of the character of the pollen parent. One exception was produced by pollen of Marshal Niel, the well-known climbing yellow rose of northern greenhouses. This hybrid had hooked spines and intermediate foliage. Several propagations of it were made and buds inserted in various stocks, some growing strongly for a season or two, but all died without producing a flower, though one of the best plants was sent to a careful California grower for trial.
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Reply #5 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
Burbank's 1918 offering of twentieth century: fruits, flowers and various economic plants p. 16

Cathay: Cherokee and Crimson Rambler cross. Extra strong grower and profuse bloomer. Single flowers deep rose-pink, in clusters, each blossom 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Does not fade and does not mildew. Field grown plant, each, $1.

Garland: Cherokee and Crimson Rambler cross. Strong grower, fine foliage, does not mildew. Flowers of a light shell-pink color in enormous clusters; each cluster a perfect bouquet which lasts, without fading, for a long time. Field grown plant, each, $1.

Burbank (New Creations, 1893) reported a hybrid of Rosa rugosa x R. sinica [laevigata]. No description.
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Reply #6 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
The Garden 49: 488-489 (June 27, 1896)
PROGRESS IN THE HYBRIDISING OF ROSES.*
*A paper by the Rt. Hon. Lord Penzance in "The Rosarian's Year-Book," 1895.
"Another experiment must be recorded which up to the present time has not met with success. The beautiful glossy foliage of the Rosa camelliaefolia [laevigata] is very inviting to the eye of the hybridiser, and if I could only transfer this foliage to some of our Hybrid Perpetuals, I should consider it a useful triumph. But I could not get the camelliaefolia to flower. From what I have read in the gardening publications I conclude that other people have met with the same difficulty. At last my opportunity came. The splendid sunny season of 1893 ripened the wood of my plant so thoroughly, that in 1894 it gave me twenty flowers. Two of these I treated with the pollen of other plants, but obtained no hips. The remaining eighteen I reserved for pollen, with which I fertilised the blooms of numerous Hybrid Perpetuals. I had a good crop of seed, and I have, perhaps, a hundred plants. In vain have I looked for a shiny leaf. Many of the seedlings have a foliage inclining that way, and certainly different from that of the seed parent, but none (unless as they grow up they put on a more glossy appearance) carry the true Camellia-like leaf which was the object of my quest."
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Reply #7 of 12 posted 7 MAY by JasonSims1984
Fascinating. What about Pink Cherokee? Is that a useful direction to go? Something like Mermaid x Pink Cherokee. That way you're getting bracteata and laevigata glossy leaves and excellent rebloom from the tea parents.
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Reply #8 of 12 posted 8 MAY by CybeRose
Jason,
That seems like a stretch, considering that neither Mermaid nor Anemone is quite fertile. It might be more useful to back cross each to the parent species. (Bracteata x Mermaid) and (Laevigata x Anemone or Ramona). At least that way there would be a better chance of restoring fertility before going the long distance between Bracteata and Laevigata.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/LewisBasye1961/LewisBasye1961.html
Karl
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Reply #9 of 12 posted 8 MAY by JasonSims1984
That was a fascinating article, thank you.

I wonder though. Both Mermaid and Anemone have tea ancestry too. Kordes developed x Kordesii from 2 highly incompatible species: rugosa and wichurana, which yielded an infertile once blooming hybrid called Max Graft, which when selfed produced a tetraploid that is remontant, fertile, and compatible with modern roses.

It's also highly disease resistant and basically every rose growing in zone 4 and lower pretty much is derived from Kordesii. So I have to imagine that these kinds of far reaching crosses would be a game changer for hybrid vigor.

I wonder if Pearl Drift or Pink Surprise could be used as bridge plants. I think Kim Rupert likes to use Orangeade for crosses that have low fertility. It basically is fertile with everything.

It's all very fascinating. Combining the leathery foliage of bracteata with the glossy foliage of laevigata would basically give roses Camellia foliage. Imagine having rugosa texture as well. Rugosa has been crossed succesfully with bracteata, and all three of these species have succesfully crossed with teas and chinas. I think that the right parents could combine the best traits and still be fertile.

If need be, they could be converted to tetraploids.

Thank you for the scientific literature!
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Reply #10 of 12 posted 8 MAY by CybeRose
Jason,
Twice now I've tried to post a reply, but apparently timed out. Then I have to start over. This time I'll post the parts.

The following account makes it apparent that Kordesii resulted from an unreduced ovum and visited by pollen from some other variety - presumably a double red rebloomer. G12, on the other hand, is closer to being a tetraploid 'Max Graf'.

Euphytica 26(3): 703-708 (1977)
Breeding for improvement of flowering attributes of winterhardy Rosa kordesii Wulff hybrids
Felicitas Svejda
"G12 was obtained from open pollination of 'Max Graf' and a cytological examination by Dr D. R. Sampson, of this Station, found it to be tetraploid (2n = 4x = 28). G12 differs from R. kordesii in that it is very hardy at Ottawa where it shows little or no winterkill. It flowers non-recurrently and produces fewer flowers. It has single, pink flowers like 'Max Graf'. R. kordesii is regularly killed to the snow-line at Ottawa, it flowers recurrently and is more floriferous than G12. Unlike 'Max Graf, R. kordesii has double flowers."
bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/SvejdaKordesii1977.html

I seem to recall some controversy regarding 'Pearl Drift'. I have recorded 'New Dawn' as the seed parent, but don't recall the source for that information. The HMF pictures don't show me anything that could not have come from 'New Dawn' without outside help.

More colchicine tetraploids:
bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/breeding/basye/Tetraploids1992.html

Orangeade:
bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Rose_Pictures/O/Orangeade.html
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Reply #11 of 12 posted 8 MAY by JasonSims1984
I sent Bill LeGrice an email asking about Pearl Drift. He seems like a nice guy, so I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him.

"Hi
Thanks for your enquiry
Pearl Drift was bred by my father E B LeGrice from New Dawn and Mermaid. The parentage caused some controversy as people such as the late Jack Harkness said that Mermaid was sterile and not capable of being a
parent. From memory we had a small batch of seedlings from that cross so consider it a hybrid rather than a self pollinated seedling. The size of the flower plus the repeat flowering nature and almost evergreen foliage would also suggest a distinct cross
Pearl Drift has proved to be extremely tough and disease resistant, and flowers from late May until the frosts. foliage is shiny and in a sheltered spot a virtual evergreen. When grown in places such as Monaco and California it tends to be classified as a climber because of its vigour. The 'climbing ' form was considered a sport in California and accepted by the ARS as such but I personally think climate dictated the vigour
When the shrub rose was introduced in the '80's we planted a bed of Pearl Drift in the local church yard, along with two other varieties. The other rose beds were replaced twice and then had shrubs planted in their place. The Pearl Drift is still flowering and growing well.
Generally the new range of repeat flowering ramblers such as Perennial Blue, Super Fairy and Rambling Rosie are proving excellent free flowering plants as too the Noake range of repeat flowering shrub roses including Pink Flower Carpet
I wish you success in your endeavours
Kind regards
Bill LeGrice"
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Reply #12 of 12 posted 8 MAY by CybeRose
"From memory we had a small batch of seedlings from that cross so consider it a hybrid rather than a self pollinated seedling. The size of the flower plus the repeat flowering nature and almost evergreen foliage would also suggest a distinct cross"

It seems to me that this makes 'New Dawn' the probable seed parent. Otherwise, the "repeat flowering nature and almost evergreen foliage" would not be an issue. 'Mermaid' is both.

'New Dawn' was a sport from 'Dr. W. Van Fleet' [(R. wichuraiana x Safrano) x Souvenir du Président Carnot]. In the U.S. it reblooms, but I've read that it does not do so in Europe.
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Discussion id : 94-326
most recent 9 AUG 16 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 9 AUG 16 by CybeRose
The Southern Agriculturist and Register of Rural Affairs 4(12): 617-622 (Dec 1831)

Art. I.—Some observations on the culture of the Cherokee or Nondescript Rose, as a hedge plant:
selected from the unpublished manuscripts of the late Stephen Elliott. June 8th, 1814.

The history of this plant is obscure. It was cultivated before the revolution by the late Nathaniel Hall, Esq. at his plantation, near Savannah river, and having been obtained from thence and propagated as an ornamental plant in the garden of Mr. Telfair, and the Mr. Gibbons' of Sharon and Beach Hill, under the name of the "Cherokee Rose," it is probable that it was originally brought down from our mountains by some of the Indian traders. Michaux met with it in the gardens in Georgia, and perceiving that it was an undescribed plant, he introduced it into the gardens near Charleston as an Nondescript Rose. Hence it has obtained in that neighbourhood the popular but absurd name of the "Nondescript." In Georgia, it has always retained the name of Cherokee Rose.

In the year 1796, I obtained a few of these plants and placed them accidentally at no great distance from each other on a straight border of my garden. About two years afterwards the garden was destroyed and thrown into pasture and the plants entirely exposed. I afterwards removed from the plantation, and for a few years it was uncultivated. In 1802, the plants had already formed a substantial hedge, their long flexible branches falling to the ground and taking root extended themselves on every side. They soon met, and intermingling their thorny limbs formed a barrier which no quadruped could break, and which I believe no bird can penetrate.

† Rosa Sepiaria? Caule aculeato, decumbente foliolis ternatis, (rarissime quinatis) foliolis lanceolatis, acutis, serratis, coriaceis, glaber, dimis, lucidis, perennantibus, floribus solitariis albis calyce hispido, laciuiis, lanceolatis longe acuminalis inequalibus duobus apice foliaceis serretis.

[Elliott did not mention the family connections in the early distribution of this rose. The "Gibbons' of Sharon and Beach Hill" were William and Barrack. Their sister, Ann (or Nancy) was married to Hall. And William's daughter, Sarah, was the wife of Gov. Edward Telfair. In addition, Telfair owned the principal commercial houses in Georgia dealing largely in European and East Indian goods.

Edward Telfair moved to Georgia because his brother, William, was established there as a merchant by 1766.]
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Discussion id : 94-324
most recent 9 AUG 16 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 9 AUG 16 by CybeRose
A sketch of the botany of South Carolina and Georgia, vol. 1, pp. 566-567 (1821)

Stephen Elliott

8 LAEVIGATA. Mich.
R. fructibus oblongis, hispidis; follis perennantibus, ternatis; foliolis lanceolatis, serratis, coriaceis, lucidis; floribus solitariis, terminalibus. E

Fruit oblong, hispid; leaves perennial, ternate; leaflets lanceolate, serrate, coriaceous, lucid; flowers solitary, terminal.

Mich. 1. p. 295. Pursh, 1. p. 345.

A shrub, with long flexible branches, which may be trained to 10, 15 or 20 feet high, but when left unsupported fall to the earth and take root; branches glabrous, and armed with very strong recurved prickles. Leaves very glossy and smooth, prickly along the under side of the midrib, very rarely quinate. Flowers on small lateral branches. Segments of the calyx unequal, all acuminate, leaflike at the summit, serrate. Petals white, obovate, obtuse, with a point irregularly crenulate.

This plant in its habit and appearance has very little resemblance to its congeners. It has been cultivated in the gardens in Georgia for upwards of 40 years, under the name of the "Cherokee Rose," but its origin is still obscure.

In our rural economy this plant will one day become very important. For the purpose of forming hedges, there is perhaps no plant which unites so many advantages. For quickness of growth, facility of culture, strength, durability and beauty, it has perhaps no rival.

Grows in moist soils, preferring close, rich loam.

Flowers April, principally, but occasionally through the summer.
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Discussion id : 94-323
most recent 9 AUG 16 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 9 AUG 16 by CybeRose
Flora Americae Septentrionalis, pp. 345-346 (1814)

Frederick Pursh

laevigata 10. R. germinibus ovatis promisse hispidissimis, calycis laciniis integris, aculeis geminatis recurvis, petiolis subaculeatis, foliolis (3-5) lanceolato-ovalibus subenervilbus laevigatis, stipulis angustis subulato-mucronatis.
-- Mich. fl. amer. 1 . p. 295.
In shady woods of Georgia. ♄. v. v. s. fl. An evergreen climbing to a great height.
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