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'Lee's Crimson Perpetual' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 85-708
most recent 7 JUN 15 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 5 JUN 15 by CybeRose
Les Roses (1873)
Cette rose a été obtenue en 1819 par M. Souchet, jardinier du fleuriste de Sèvres, et n'a été livrée au commerce que quelques années plus tard. A cette époque M. le comte Lelieur était directeur des jardins royaux, et comme le fleuriste de Sèvres y était employé, on lui a attribué par erreur l'honneur d'avoir obtenu cette magnifique variété.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 6 JUN 15 by Patricia Routley
Whose / which Les Roses? - and what Volume and page number please?
Les Roses (Redoute & Thory) Vol. I (1817), Vol. II (1821), Vol. III (1824)
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 6 JUN 15 by CybeRose
Sorry!

Les Roses: Histoire – Culture – Description (2nd edition 1873)
by Hippolyte Jamain and Eugene Forney
T. 58, p. 254.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 7 JUN 15 by Patricia Routley
Thank you Karl. Reference added.
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Discussion id : 4-236
most recent 12 APR 11 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 25 FEB 04 by Anonymous-797
The thumbnails of Rose du Roi feature two early painting and two photos; the photos, supposedly of the same rose are completely different.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 12 APR 11 by Hardy
I only noticed one old painting of the rose, Redoute's, in the thumbnails, but if you look at the thorns in that painting, something doesn't fit. Either the painting's off, or the thorny RdR of 1823 has been replaced by something a little different. Two of its color sports have supposedly survived, and both are thornier, but the identity of both of those are also disputed.

Rose du Roi of commerce is a fine rose, though, whatever its identity.

<update, five years later>

I noticed that the thorny rose painted by Redoute was labelled Quatre Saisons Lelieur originally, but then marked as Crimson Perpetual before being uploaded by an anonymous poster here. Quatre Saisons Lelieur is a synonym for La Moderne, which is quite similar to Autumn Damask, and unrelated to Rose du Roi, aside from both being Damask Perpetuals associated with the Comte de Lelieur. This same confusion seems to have crept into descriptions of the rose as early as 1837. My own "Rose du Roi of commerce" is now in bloom, and of six flowers I examined, two had five sepals, three had six, and one had seven! Buist's 'The Rose Manual' (1844) and Cranston's 'Cultural Directions for the Rose' (1877) said Rose du Roi was a very good producer of seed, and mine has very large, oblong, purple-tinged hips on it (1.25" long and 3/4" across), and they still have a couple of months to grow before they'll be ripe. By Damask standards, they're enormous. Like the 1873 description, it has no prickles under the petioles, which is unusual.

I believe the "of commerce" label probably dates from Philip Robinson's 2007 article in Rosa Mundi, where he said that the rose in commerce in America was obtained from Kordes circa 1954, and that he'd "grown this rose for a number of years and had no reason to suspect that it was not the true variety." Then he obtained a rose identified as Panachee de Lyon, which did not appear identical (aside from bloom color) to what he grew as Rose du Roi, and concluded that the Panachee was authentic and the Rose du Roi was not. The alleged Panachee eventually produced a red sport, which Vintage Gardens sold as "Rose du Roi, original." Like him, I've grown the rose of commerce for years, and had no reason to doubt that it was either Rose du Roi or Mogador. I've yet to see his Panachee or its redder sport, but until such a time as I do, I'm unready to discount the idea that the rose in commerce is, if not Rose du Roi or Mogador, perhaps Louis Philippe, a seedling of Rose du Roi. Six sepals is just too unusual, and some of Rose du Roi's seedlings inherited it, as some did its prolific seed production.
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Discussion id : 40-621
most recent 20 NOV 09 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 19 NOV 09 by Bernhard
maybe this should be added to the references site of 'rose du roi':

"The Beginnings of Hybridization

lt is likely that the early rosarians knew nothing of these scientific
works, they relied upon a system developed from their own experience. The first hybridizers were French, all from the area arouncl Paris and much influenced by the demands made of them by the Empress Josephine. lt is believed that the ‘Rose du Roi‘. often referred to as the archetype of the Portland Roses, was the first verifiable intentionally-created hybrid.Comte Lelieur, in charge of the Imperial Gardens, including the Luxembourg in Paris, was very interested in roses. He had made some crosses between the Port land Rose (which was certainly available at the Du pont Nurseries in Paris by 1809) and what was probably R. gallica officinalis. The resulting seedling he called ‘Rose Lelieur‘, hut the name only Iasted a short time. When Napoleon was exiled to Elba in 1814, Louis XVIII ascended the throne and the Count entered bis service. The King expressed the desire to have the rose renamed ‘Rose du Roi‘ in his honor, and this was done. Then, suddenly, Napoleon came back from Elba for the famous 100 days until his final defeat at Waterloo. For this short time the rose had to once more be rechristened, and was known as ‘Rose-de l‘Empereur‘. After Napo leon‘s departure to St. Helena it reverted to ‘Rose du Roi‘. During all this time it had been growing only in the Royal Park at S near Paris, and it was not until 1815 that Souchet made it available commercially. In England it became known as ‘Lee‘s Crimson Per petual‘."

Source: Gerd Krüssmann, The complete Book of Roses, Timber Press 1981

cheers
Bernhard
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 20 NOV 09 by Cass
Thanks!
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