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'Bengale Neuman' rose Reviews & Comments
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I'm puzzled by the synonym on the description page for 'Gloire de France' (bourbon, Hardy, 1822).
I don't see a reference to support this nomenclature. I do see an 1838 reference saying that Hardy received seeds of 'Rose Edouard' in 1822, but am having trouble locating any non-American references to a Bourbon called 'Gloire'(or Gloria) de France'. What am I missing?
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#1 of 4 posted
25 AUG by
 jedmar
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Buist and several others were stating that 'Gloire de France' is a synonym of 'Mme Neumann' resp. 'Dubreuil'
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Buist was ahead of his time with his efforts to 'streamline' nomenclature by declaring many similar roses as synonyms.
To be fair, though, the roses sent to him in the U.S. may have been more likely to be mislabeled than roses sent out within Europe and the UK.
But back to my question, we aren't saying that 'Rose Edouard'- by any name- was sent out by Hardy in 1822, are we?
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#3 of 4 posted
27 AUG by
jedmar
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Hardy's own catalogue of 1837 equates his Bengale Centfeuilles of 1821 with Bengale Dubreuil (1822) and Bengale Neumann. The first rose would be the source of Buist's statement that Hardy introduced Rose Edouard in 1822. However, some of these seem to have been seeds of Rose Edouard, not the original plant.
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I guess I agree with Buist about this one, and am inclined to think 'Dubreuil', 'Neumann' and 'Centfeuilles' are probably the same. I don't know where 'Edward'/ 'Edouard'/ 'Île de France' fits in, but it seems to have been less double than 'Dubreuil'/ 'Neumann', etc.
Was there one clone or variety commonly found on Île de France (now Mauritius), and another, related rose found on Île de Bourbon (now Réunion)? Or were they found in one location or the other or both?
Either way, I think India is probably the source of both these proto-Bourbon roses, and it's suggestive that at least two governors of Pondichery went on to become governors of Île de Bourbon/ La Réunion, probably bringing along some plants and/or gardeners with them.
The name 'Edouard' was not one of the earliest names in the references, and I would love to know why the cultivators in Île de France called it 'Edward', as reported by Prevost. Do we have any idea of who Edward (or Edwards) was?
I think Rivers heard about 'Rose Edwards', and automatically assumed that the name had been anglicized, and should be 'Edouard', but there were examples of people from the British Isles finding religious or political refuge- and attaining high positions- in both the royal and Republican governments of France.
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Speede, Indian Handbook of Gardening (1840) wrote:
In Europe they number from a thousand to fifteen hundred varieties; of the rose in India, the cultivated sorts are limited to the Madras rose, the rose Edward, the sweet scented Bussorah rose, (red and white) the Persian rose, the sweet briar, the many‑flowered rose, (a climber,) the China rose, (red and damask,) and the dog rose (growing wild); the moss rose may be found to exist, but has not, it is believed, been yet known to blossom in India.
In his 1848 revised edition he identified the Madras Rose as Rosa centifolia, which would be the Monthly Rose (Damask). His Rosa damascena is called the China Damask.
He identified the very double but scentless Persian Rose as Rosa collina. I don't know why.
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According to Fusée Aublet (vol 2, 1775), the first specimen of Rosa bifera was imported to Mauritius (l'Isle-de-France) from Brazil by M. Kerguelin "a few years ago." Aublet was able to propagate this rose. "I had, in the space of eighteen months or two years, palisades, hedges of this Rosebush which gave me enough flowers for various medicines, needed by the Hospital de l'Isle and the Company's vessels."
Aublet arrived on the island in 1752. He left in 1762 and in the same year went to French Guiana.
In vol 1, Aublet noted that the rose was transported from Para to Caïenne. [Pará is a State of Brazil]
I had never imagined such a round-about route.
And on this general theme, the earliest mention I have found of 'Parsons' Pink China' was as R. bengalensis in the catalogue of J. J. Saint Germaine (1784). This raises the possibility that 'Old Blush' reached France from China by way of India, and then through either Reunion or Mauritius.
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I'm curious about the given parentage of this rose - is there any reference that specifically states Quatre Saison x Old Blush rather than Old Blush x Quatre Saison? I would have thought just from casually looking at the way that Quatre Saison is fairly reluctant to set seed (in the much differing climes of England - maybe that is different on Reunion?), or at least not with as much readiness or quantity, compared to the ease with which Old Blush can be pollinated, that it was more likely to be the later. I've seen both ways round mentioned in various books, so is it based on any DNA data that I have somehow missed or something? It puzzles me how we "know" when so much of the origin of this rose is lost, or at least hidden, in the mists of time. Can anyone shed any light on it please?
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#1 of 11 posted
26 OCT 20 by
jedmar
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You are quite right in being sceptical. There has been a recent (2019) DNA investigation of 'Rose Edouard' which found alleles corresponding to both 'Quatre Saisons' and 'Old Blush'; however, this analysis cannot determine which one is the seed parent. Also, this crossing would normally result in a triploid rose, but 'Rose Edouard' is tetraploid. So the parentage might be more complicated, involving several steps.
I have always doubted Bréon's story of how he found 'Rose Edouard' in a mixed hedge of 'Quatre Saisons' and 'Old Blush' on the Island of Réunion (Ile Bourbon). The climate of that island is tropical and would not have been at all condusive to growth and seeding of R. damascena, as it would not have the winter chill needed.
My hypothesis is that this rose was brought from southern India to the island - there are many links of families on Ile Bourbon and the former French colonies at Pondichéry, India. Once you are in India, then the actual crossing would certainly have happened in Northern India where the climate is appropriate and you find both R. damascena and R.chinensis. Such a good rose for perfume and ceremonies would then have expanded southward over the continent, possibly in conjunction with the expansion of the Mogul Empire. This would also be an explanation why 'Rose Edouard' is so widespread today in India and nowhere else. Difficult to prove, as there are no records (or couldn't find them yet) prior to European interest in rose breeding.
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What a fantastic answer! And I think that is a very plausible and interesting hypothesis you have come up with that would answer a lot of points. Thank you very much.
Please excuse my ignorance regarding the first part of your answer, but when you say the DNA investigation "found alleles corresponding to both 'Quatre Saison' and 'Old Blush' ", does that mean that they have been identified as being the parents, or as being and/or related to the parents? - I hope you follow me, I haven't explained what I mean very well! Sorry! I haven't come across the word "alleles" before.
Just as an aside, I have tried recreating this cross myself this year, and while I had a 50% success rate re hip set with O.B. x Q. S. ( I should point out that was 1 out of 2!!), I had no success with Q.S. x O.B.
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#3 of 11 posted
27 OCT 20 by
jedmar
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I am not a geneticist, but as I understand, the genes on a certain position in the chromosome can have different variants. These variants are called alleles. It is the difference in alleles which determines whether a rose is e.g. pink or white, even when we are talking about the same colour-determining gene.
You can see from the excerpt we quoted from the 2019 study of Pascal Heitzler that he speaks of finding "at least 50% allele identity at each locus" between Rose Edouard and 'Four Seasons'. The "locus" he refers to is the postion on the chromosome I mentioned above. He means that at least 50% of the gene variants (alleles) of Rose Edouard were contributed by Quatre Saisons. All the rest of the allelles apparently correspond to 'Old Blush'. I understand his text so that the share of Quatre Saisons is more than 50%, and inferring from that we might have had several steps of crossings, like (Old Blush x Quatre Saisons) x Quatre Saisons. I will ask his opinion about this next time I see him.
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Ah, I think I understand now. That is very interesting, and would make a lot of sense in that it successfully answers questions about certain things such as the ploidity of Rose Edouard. It might also explain how Rose Edouard has chinensis style rebloom, as I understand that the first time cross (at least theoretically - who knows in the real world!) would not be repeat flowering due to incompatible rebloom genes with 'Quatre Saison', but multiple steps might bring about such a result. Hmmm, this is intriguing!
Thank you, that would be very helpful to hear his opinion.
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An update - from the one hip on Old Blush that I pollinated with Quatre Saison and that ripened, it contained 11 seeds, of which 9 were fertile.
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Have you got any plants from the seeds yet? Should be an interesting comparison.
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No, I haven't as yet I'm afraid, but I will post on here and let you know if they come to anything. Probably about 2/3rds of my crosses have had some sort of germination to some extent by now, so hopefully they will do something soon if they are going to. None of my Old Blush seeds have germinated thus far.
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While I agree that there might indeed be substance to your hypothesis (I am from India and for some weird reason R.Edouard is like you said, widespread here). I would like to point out that Reunion/Ile de Bourbon does have a high altitude variant of Cfb climate (the climate of the British Isles). This is the same climate where Viru Viraraghavan does his rose breeding in the South of India (he is at Kodaikanal ~2300m above sea level, Subtropical Highland Climate). The highland climate does seem to have 'winter chill' for many roses to bloom and set hips, infact, if I recall correctly, Rxfortuniana is ever flowering in San Francisco and other Csc climates, and it might be the case that Quatre Saisons might be everflowering in such an altitude. Although as you said, a random cross from hedge plantings seems implausible.
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#9 of 11 posted
8 MAY 21 by
jedmar
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The plantation of Edouard Périchon was in the Saint-Benoit area in eastern Réunion. This is a region with about 200-300 m altitude, utmost 400-500m. In the high altitude volcanic areas of Piton des Neiges and Piton de la Fournaise there would be no plantations. Still today they seem to be covered with forests. Of course, I have not been there, but pondered maps of the 18th century and today, as well as Google Earth. My conclusion was that Bréon made up a story to earn some botanists' fame as a discoverer.
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Do we know when 'Quatre Saisons' arrived in India?
I think there is a story or legend about rose oil being discovered in a rose petal bath somewhere, sometime in India. Any ideas what rose or roses would have gone into the bath?
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#11 of 11 posted
9 MAY 21 by
jedmar
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The story is that Rose attar was discovered by Nur Jahan (1577-1645), the wife of the Moghul emperor Jahangir. The discoverer may have actually been her mother Asmat Begum. Their family was of Persian origin but had emigrated to India.
Historically Northern India and Persia have been intricately linked. Following the Arab conquest of the Sassanid Empire of Persia in 642-651, many Persian Zoroastrians emigrated to India. Their descendants are called Parsi today. The area was in the Turco-Persian cultural sphere for many centuries until the British. So, it is safe to assume that 'Quatre Saisons' has been known in northern India practically for over a thousand years.
Rosa centifolia, Rosa damascena and Rose Edouard are still grown extensively in the region, e.g. in Uttar Pradesh.
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