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"Agnes Smith" rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 50-528
most recent 14 DEC 10 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 12 DEC 10 by IanM
Agnes Smith is probably not the same rose as Rosa Indica fragrans (Redoute, 1817) as the flowers of Agnes Smith are a little flatter and too evenly pink throughout. It is clearly very closely related. Hume's Blush was afterall presumed to be a cultivar of Rosa x odorata, of which there are many cultivars and possibly some wild forms.

However nobody today can be certain if the rose Empress Josephine imported to Malmaison was one of the ancient Chinese "Indica" cultivars that Hume imported, or a seedling that Hume is said to have raised. We would assume that the rose at Malmaison was correctly labelled by Thory and Redoute, which begs the question, if it really was Hume's Blush then why was it not labelled as such. Instead the rose is labelled Rosa Indica fragrans, with no mention of Hume. And this was not an isolated case...

As any scientist will tell you, in order for a cultivar name to be valid, a direct link needs to be established in the published literature between it and a scientific name. This link is unfortunately absent. It is not until the geneticist and author Dr C. C. Hurst, writing in 1941, that a link was made between the names, supposedly through informed logic. Yet Hurst believed 'Hume's Blush' to be extinct, therefore he had no specimen on which to base his assumption. In any case, by that time too many years had passed to form a legitimate scientific link between Redoute's painting and the actual Rosa x odorata cultivar known as Hume's Blush.

The sad reality of the matter is that the identity of the cultivar known as Hume's Blush will never be known, due to discrepancies that began in the literature within a decade of the rose's release.

The early literature also contradicts itself (the great botanist Lindley informs us that Hume raised a seedling, but in other texts we are told that Hume imported an early Chinese cultivar and named it "Hume's Blush"). Even the naming is a matter of speculation as nobody knows for sure who was the first to actually coin the name for the rose. The contemporary literature neglects to state this, and I cannot find any early contemporary mention of "Hume's Blush" in print.

So from a scientific standpoint, the big problem with establishing the identity of Hume's Blush is that the early illustrations widely accepted as depicting this rose were never called that. They were called Rosa indica fragrans Thory (1817), Rosa odorata (hort. ex Andrews) Sweet (1818) [in Hort. Suburb. Lond. 119, 1818], Rosa indica odoratissima Lindley (in Edwards, 1824), and Rosa indica odorata Andrews (1828), and Rosa odoratissima (Loudon, 1830). The common names used were “Sweet-scented China Rose” (by Lindley in Edwards), "Sweet-scented Indian Rose" (by Andrews), "Sweetest Scented Rose" (by Loudon), and "Scented Rose of India" (by Redoute), but not "Hume's Blush". Colville also grew and sold an Indica (i.e. Rosa x odorata) cultivar at the famous nursery in the UK, but according to Lindley apparently called it "Tea-scented rose".

In Sweet's Hortus Britannicus of 1826, p. 138, we find R. odorata is listed with synonyms R. indica odorata (Andrews) and Rosa Indica fragrans (Redoute). In Loudon's Hortus Britannicus of 1830, the only plant by name of "Hume's Blush" is a cultivar of Camellia flavescens, however on page 208-215 he lists an enormous number of wild and cultivated roses, including a number of so-called "Blush" roses. "Hume's Blush" is not among them, but he does list the Rosa odoratissima "Sweetest-Scented Rose" of Edwards Botanical Register Plate 804 and a few roses with Bengale in their name. This is the case right up to 1850.

If Hume had raised a seedling from the imported "Indica" cultivars from China (as Lindley tells us he did in Edwards' Botanical Register of 1824), Hume's Blush may therefore have looked similar to Rosa Indica fragrans, but with more of the tea-like characteristics that we recognize today. In which case, Agnes Smith may be a contender. However, given the reasons already stated above, this is highly speculative.

In this century we are left with about 4 old paintings and illustrations that depict Rosa x odorata cultivars, which, although placed in synonymy by many authors, contain a number of discrepancies. They appear to be depicting several distinct roses. It is interesting that none of the contemporary sources of the illustrations ever refer to the rose as Hume's Blush. Only Edwards associates one of the illustrated roses with Hume [the lithograph by J. Watts of the rose grown at Colville's Nursery], but this is not published until 1824.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 4 posted 12 DEC 10 by jedmar
Very interesting, Ian. Clearly, Hume's Blush is a modern name. Distribution of roses by seeds in the early 19th century is mentioned in various sources. I think the same confusion also haunts 'Park's Yellow', which is found in literature under diverse names. We should probably regard these as a group of kins.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 13 DEC 10 by IanM
Thank you for your comments. I have just been going back through the original literature and am surprised to find that there is absolutely no mention of the rose being remontant. I am sure I have not missed this. If anyone else can find this stated in the early literature, by which I mean the early to mid 1800s, please let me know.

I was thinking of correcting the helpmefind entry where it says "once flowering in spring". But now I wonder if this might be the case. It is probably more correct to say that the rose was not recorded as being remontant or once flowering!

We can only assume that it would not have been much use in the breeding of early tea roses if it had not been remontant.
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 13 DEC 10 by billy teabag
Re remontancy, the earliest reference to the rose said to have been imported by Hume that I know of is that of Andrews, writing of the rose he calls 'ROSA Indica odorata, Sweet-scented Indian Rose' in 1810. In the entry, Andrews includes 'often flowering' among the Specific Characters and refers to this rose being one of the 'ever-blooming species'. I think it is safe to accept the term 'ever-blooming' as an indication that the rose repeated its bloom.

The full entry and description is in HMF refs but I'll copy the descriptive text here:

"THIS elegant plant was imported from the East Indies in 1809 by Sir A. Hume, Bart, and is a great acquisition to the British gardens ; being one of the ever-blooming species, with the addition of an agreeable scent, which very few China roses possess; it is nearest allied to the Rosa lndica, but still of a paler colour when in full bloom, and sometimes nearly white: yet the under side of the outer petals is strongly marked with a deep purply red, which gives it, in the bud state, an appearance of being a high-coloured rose. We believe it has not as yet ripened its seed with us, but may be increased by cuttings.
Our figure was drawn from a fine plant in the nursery of Messrs. Colville."

The Rose Andrews refers to as Rosa Indica here is the rose we know as 'Old Blush', 'Parsons Pink' etc.
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 14 DEC 10 by IanM
Thank you for the comments. I missed the bit about "ever blooming" sorry.

The painting of the cultivar in Andrews differs in many respects to that of the cultivar painted by Redoute, but we do at least have a link between Hume and Colvilles Nursery established there.

Nobody can be certain today if the Andrews illustration depicts one of the parent plants that Hume imported or a seedling that he raised from them. Therefore nobody can say with any certainty that this rose is "Hume's Blush". All we can say is that Hume Blush probably looked like this rose.

Andrews illustration appears closer to the Watts lithograph in Edwards Botanical Register, but it is impossible to say if they are one and the same rose.

However Pemberton adapted Andrews illustration for another drawing published in 1920, which is so different from the Redoute and Watts illustrations that it can only be a different rose altogether. It depicts a very ruffled flower, with curved, narrow petals. Some of the roses that are labelled "Hume's Blush" today are possibly this rose.
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Discussion id : 50-491
most recent 11 DEC 10 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 11 DEC 10
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 0 posted 11 DEC 10 by Margaret Furness
I gather Redoute renamed some roses he painted after his pupils (although presumably not this one). So we can't assume that the name he wrote is the one the rose arrived with. Likewise Willmott & Baker renamed Rosa Godefroyae, Mme Godefroy's rose, as Nastarana, even though that name was already in use (research on this one was by Ivan Louette). Just to confuse us a century or so later...
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Discussion id : 35-122
most recent 28 MAR 09 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 28 MAR 09 by Cass
This is a fascinating found rose. I'd love to see more of the habit and the foliage.
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