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jedmar
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Initial post 8 days ago by jedmar
If you check the photos of hips of Rosa virginiana on this page, you will see that some of the pictures show smooth hips, while others prickly hips. In Roessig's 1801 drawing, he differentiates between Rosa lucida (prickly hips) and Rosa virginiana (smooth hips). So, is the synonym incorrect?
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Reply #1 of 11 posted 7 days ago by Patricia Routley
Jedmar, I have no time right now to do more than say, I found your question so interesting. We have some rain coming up in the next day or so and I really look forward to hunkering down then to look closer at the references and comments. (I only wish I could read those French references).
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Reply #2 of 11 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
Patricia, I have added the translations from French, but mind that I am no botanist!
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Reply #3 of 11 posted 4 days ago by Patricia Routley
You are very kind. Thank you for doing that Jedmar.
The complexity of the various references brings home to me that none of us are botanists. Me especially - I am just an old lady gardener.

I recall once, was it Karl? who said that a bush can produce prickles at will, and I have certainly seen this type of behaviour on the odd rose or two in my own garden. Simplifying the names here, I am wondering if R. virginiana / R. lucida also does this from time to time. I didn’t note the hip prickles on my bush for many years until I photographed it, but perhaps I didn’t look closely enough in the early years.

I note that Rossig’s 1801 illustrations show
R. virginiana: a smooth (a little pointed towards the base) hip
R. lucida: a prickly (globular) hip.
Yet in his text he writes of
R. virginiana: “Ovary almost globular, slightly bristly”.
R. lucida: “a Globular, flattened ovary”. (No mention of bristles)

The 1817 reference is a little confusing to me as Thory has written of R. lucida having “Receptacles and pedicels armed with reddish glandular hairs” and “heps depressed globose red”. I can discern the hairs on the top bud in the illustration, but only with a magnifying glass. Knowing that the receptacle is the early stage, from which the hip is formed much later, I can only note that Redoute has drawn a very smooth hip.

In the 1817 reference Thory mentions that the R. lucida blooms do not last for more than several hours. In my 2013 reference I had noted “They seem to have come and gone before I can get the camera out.” I am going to add to my own records the possibility that my rose may be R. Lucida. But I really do not have the knowledge to do more than that. I do notice you pouring in the early references for this rose, and I thank you for your dedication and sharing.
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Reply #4 of 11 posted 4 days ago by jedmar
I have added Rössig's 1799 descriptions in German. Translations will follow. An important difference seems to me that R. virginiana is stated to have matte foliage, while R. lucida has glossy ones.
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Reply #5 of 11 posted 3 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
The rose I bought five years ago from David Austin has smooth hips and shiny leaves. The flowers in the picture are lighter pink in reality.

https://www.davidaustinroses.co.uk/r-virginiana
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Reply #6 of 11 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
Andrew, It would be good to have a close-up photo of the mid-term and ripe hips.
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Reply #7 of 11 posted 2 days ago by jedmar
I think one of the issues is that different botanists named distinct roses R. virginiana. The references are not consistent in their synonms. Furthermore, there is some mix-up of R. carolina and R. palustris, too. You can see totally different hip forms in the photos of R. palustris, for example.
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Reply #8 of 11 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Is it possible that lucida could be a subspecies of Rosa carolina?
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Reply #9 of 11 posted yesterday by jedmar
Andrew, I do not know; I am not a botanist. But looking at the references, there seems to be quite some confusion. For the moment, I will be adding relevant references to the North American wild roses, especially also the first descriptions. Comparing these may lead to some conclusions.
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Reply #10 of 11 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Hillier's Manual of Trees and Shrubs, which is usually very accurate, lists lucida as a synonym of virginiana. Graham Stuart Thomas says the fruits of virginiana are bristly. He says 'Alba' has has shiny leaves. The double form 'Rose d'Amour', looks to be a hybrid or even a different rose.
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Reply #11 of 11 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
William Robinson, The English Flower Garden. 5th edition 1896. Pub. John Murray , Albemarle Street, London.

p.768-9.
R.LUCIDA (Glossy Rose). -- One of the best Wild Roses has leaves of a shining green colour, and just when our native and other early single Roses are passing away this come into bloom in July and goes on for several weeks. Its flowers are large, opening flat, clear rosey-pink, sweet-scented, in clusters of from five to eight, but succeed one another, so that there is not usually more than one flower open at a time in a cluster. The heps are about as large as a Hazel-nut, deep red, and make a bright effect with the fading leaves, which assume autumn tints. The heps hang all the winter, the leafless wood becomes red, and through the dullest time of the year large groups of this Rose are pretty to see. A few plants soon spread into a thick mass as it runs freely underground, and it is so easily increased by its suckers, and that it offers every facility for free planting.

[The spelling of hips and capitals are Robinson's not mine]
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most recent 3 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
I'm not seeing yellow edges on any of the photos. Does anyone have one with yellow edges or petal base, and which grows like a China?
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Nope, no yellow whatsoever. I just assumed it's the wrong rose, but what a glorious rose it is. Mine rarely repeats.
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
The Rosenzeitung says it's a good forcing rose and cut rose, which doesn't really match either.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 4 days ago by jedmar
It should be yellow undertones (onglet jaune)
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
Sounds like a file should be set up for "L'Ouche - in commerce as", and all the photos transferred across.
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
Although, if there is no other 'L'Ouche' alternative, why bother? Maybe just make a note in the description page that it might not be the real deal?
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Reply #6 of 6 posted 3 days ago by jedmar
Done
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most recent 5 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 6 days ago by Byrnes, Robert L.
Where does this rose get its hardiness to zone 2b from??
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
Difficult to imagine from the parentage stated in Modern Roses 10, isn't it? However, if we modify the pollen parent from 'Von Scharnhorst' to 'open-pollinated seedling of Von Scharnhorst' (as stated in the note) then it is quite possible that a very hardy nearby rose in the Experimantal Station played a role.
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 5 days ago by Byrnes, Robert L.
That would make sense. Thank you Jedmar.
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most recent 5 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 6 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Sad, but looks about right.

Trying to get some width on those petals is going to dilute the species component considerably.
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Reply #1 of 4 posted 6 days ago by Plazbo
Wouldn't that be a case where self/sibling cross could probably be of use? Granted may be difficult if its a difficult breeder like bracteat. Just seems like a path thats often over looked and we see species crosses with flaws not in either parent used in further wide crossing before fixing flaws at the first species cross.
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Reply #2 of 4 posted 5 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
That's likely the most productive way forward. I've produced many bracteata derivatives. Most don't carry forward resistances. There are no guarantees when breeding roses. It takes luck and work and a lot of time to make progress.
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Reply #3 of 4 posted 5 days ago by jedmar
I believe the petals are narrow on these photos as Burgundy has been experiencing severe drought since April. Rosa bracteata x chinensis has wider petals (see my pics).
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Reply #4 of 4 posted 5 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Those narrow petals do vary somewhat with weather conditions.

Here's a case in point wherein the narrow petals carried into the second generation whilst staying diploid.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.141963


When integrating into triploid and tetra genomes no doubt the effect would be less pronounced.
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