HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Patricia Routley
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Initial post 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
What are the differences between sepal and calyx?
Reply #1 of 2 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
Mr. Collins (dictionary - my teacher on all things botanical) tells us:
Sepal: any of the separate parts of the calyx of a flower.
Calyx: The sepals of a flower collectively, forming the outer floral envelope that protects the developing flower bud.
Corolla: the petals of a flower collectively, forming an inner floral envelope,
Reply #2 of 2 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
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Initial post 2 days ago by Diana B
The entry for 'Henry Fonda' says parents are 'Baron Girod de l'Ain' x 'Sunbright,' although there's then a note underneath that says "The seed parent of 'Baron Girod de l'Ain' is doubtful. Refer Patent and comments."

I'm a volunteer at the Huntington Library's Rose Garden, so I asked Tom Carruth about this (because he knows I love 'Baron Girod de l'Ain'). He says he was Jack Christensen's assistant at the time this rose was developed and that Jack never used 'Baron Girod de l'Ain' as a parent. As the patent says, the parentage is seedling x seedling. Feel free to verify this with Tom at

Anyway, I thought you might like to know so that you can correct the entry for 'Henry Fonda'
Reply #1 of 1 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you for your trouble Diana. Parentage corrected.
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Initial post 14 days ago by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung, Sep 1913, pg 111

"The Best New Roses for the Years 1910, 1911 and 1912.
TEAS: Mad. G. Serrurier, Mrs. Harold Silberrad, Alice de Rothschild, Lady Hillingdon, Mrs. Foley Hobbs, Mrs. Herbert Stevens, Recuerdo de Antonio Peluffo, Alexander Hill Gray, Charles Dingee."

I've included this quote here because it indicates that William R Smith was imported into and was known in Germany as Charles Dingee. Presumably Sangerhausen's specimen called Charles Dingee (if it hasn't been mixed up) would be William R Smith.
I'm keen to see a mature plant of 'Charles Dingee' from Sangerhausen to compare it to other William R Smiths.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 14 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
These following two references are of interest in that they quote different parentages - and years. Sorry, I haven't done any research on 'Charles Dingee' but am sure there will be more to be found.

1911, May 20 The Garden, p243
Charles Dingee... Tea, D. and Conard, 1910, (Hermosa x White Maman Cochet)

1911, Aug 19. The Garden, p404
William R. Smith Hybrid Tea, Smith, 1908, (Kaiserin Augusta Victoria x Maman Cochet)
Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Dingee's 1918 catalogue lists both Charles Dingee and William R. Smith, so they must be two separate roses.
They emphatically claimed that they were the originators of Charles Dingee (as Hermosa x White Maman Cochet) and promote it as the 'best bush rose in the world'. They also warn of others roses being passed off fraudulently as Charles Dingee.

Despite the confusion over the early distribution and naming of the original William R Smith, it looks very likely that Charles Dingee is a distinctly separate variety and that William R Smith has at some point been passed off as Charles Dingee, hence its existence as a synonym.

There's even a very good photo of "William R Smith" in this 1918 catalogue (besides photos of 'Charles Dingee")
Reply #3 of 4 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
"Charles Dingee" The Most Wonderful Bush Rose in the World (See the Colored Photographic Illustration on opposite page.)
The Charles Dingee Rose is the result of cross-breeding between Hermosa, that grand old hardy pink variety, and White Maman Cochet, perhaps the greatest of all white garden Roses - a superb parentage, which insures its offspring every point of excellence. With the hardy, vigorous constitution of a Hybrid Perpetual, growing to perfection in almost any soil or situation, it has the most magnificent foliage, absolutely free from disease, that we have ever seen in any Rose.
It is a tremendous grower, the best in our entire list of over 800 varieties. If you have a place where other Roses have failed in that spot, Charles Dingee will flourish and will produce its gorgeous flowers with wonderful profusion. We have had it growing and blooming in all its glory in a temperature very little above freezing. Growing to a height of 2 to 3 feet, Charles Dingee blooms continuously, producing immense, deep, double, grandly formed flowers on long, stiff, erect stems; both in bud and bloom their beauty is nothing short of superb, practically impossible to describe because of the delicate blending of colors - rose tints in the center of flower, gradually shading off into pale blush creamy white, a color effect both entirely new and distinct.
CAUTION We are the originators and sole owners of the Charles Dingee Rose. Imitations and so called duplicates of it are intended to deceive.

From the "Dingee Guide to Rose Culture", 1918, page 3.

Very interesting that it is only 2-3 feet high.
Do you think that HMF should have separate entries for 'Charles Dingee' and 'William R. Smith'?
Reply #4 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I've added the 1918 references.
I don't think we should have separate entries at the moment. Perhaps others in the future will come up with more evidence to prove they were separate roses.
PhotoDiscussion id : 109-356
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Initial post 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
An interesting photo. I don't think we are seeing such creamy yellow tones in Australia.
Reply #1 of 9 posted 8 days ago by Vesfl
This photo was taken last fall and there was some discussion on Gardenweb about its identity. I didn't want to post it until the curator confirmed that it's "Mme de Watteville". When I was there again this March, some blooms had pinkish undertones and a few buds were also slightly pink, but unfortunately it was about to rain and I didn't take a photo. Last fall, however, all blooms were solid creamy yellow and we were told that this is one of the teas that slightly changes colors seasonally, at least on some blooms. Quite a beautiful rose.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 4 days ago by billy teabag
This is 'Etoile de Lyon' which has been sold under the name 'Mme de Watteville'
Reply #3 of 9 posted 4 days ago by Vesfl
There is one other person on gardenweb who also suggested that it could be 'Etoile de Lyon' (though another GW member was of a different opinion) but these are not my roses and this rose was marked as 'Mme de Wateville' in this beautiful public rose garden in New Orleans and also confirmed to us by the curator. There are about 100 antique roses planted there, if not even more, and I posted the photos of about 35 of them from a couple of my visits to New Orleans. My intent was to share my love of roses with those who enjoy visiting distant rose gardens, even if only virtually. Thank you for your input, though.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 4 days ago by billy teabag
You're welcome.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 4 days ago by Patricia Routley
I have moved the photo to 'Etoile de Lyon'.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 3 days ago by billy teabag
I also had the great pleasure of being shown these roses by Leo in 2010. They were beautifully grown and had been planted with generous spaces between the roses so that they had room to achieve their potential. They clearly loved the climate in New Orleans as well as the care and must be even more magnificent eight years on.
I'll contact Leo re the labelling of that rose.
This is what 'Mme de Watteville' should look like.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 3 days ago by Vesfl
Thank you very much. Before seeing your last comment, I had already removed the photo for now because I wasn't sure if it would be right to keep it since this rose's identity/labelling is questioned. It's not my rose but from this lovely public garden and if, on the second thought, Leo concurs that it's 'Etoile de Lyon' then I would ask Patricia to let me reupload it under 'Etoile de Lyon'. I'm trying to honor both your kind discussion about its identity and the hard work in this public garden to label their roses correctly. That's a beautiful picture from 'The Garden' magazine and thank you for sharing it.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
One of the problems with public gardens is that there are visitors who think it witty and original to move labels.
Reply #9 of 9 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
Go for it. You don't need my permission, but check what is in the 'Etoile de Lyon' file first as I have moved some photos to there.
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