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Maurizio Usai
most recent 14 JUL 21 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 14 JUL 21 by raingreen
Hi Maurizio,

What are the earliest blooming David Austins in your conditions?? Thanks, Nate
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most recent 22 AUG 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 24 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
I'm pretty convinced that this rose is in fact 'Maman Cochet'.
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Reply #1 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by billy teabag
From the photos I've seen of this rose, I agree with you.
Is there any reason it cannot be Maman Cochet?
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Reply #2 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hi Billy, John Hook told me that "Bryan Freidel P.T." should be 'Auguste Comte', and you can see on HMF what I think about this one. Apart from personal observations, I think that it's easier that, being BFPT a USA found Rose, it's likely to be a variety pretty common in cultivation like 'Maman Cochet', than a variety unknown in cultivation like A.C.
Note that true 'Maman Cochet' is not in commerce (except than in John's Roseraie du Désert) in Europe, as every nurseryman grows under this name (but not this only one) the Rose I've posted in the 'Auguste Comte' page.

I've made a comparison of BFPT in my garden, using both 'White Maman Cochet' and 'Clg. White Maman Cochet*' and every detail of these Roses seems to be identical to 'Bryan Freidel'.
* I have to remark that this Rose came to me as 'Chromathella' - 'Cloth of Gold'.

Ciao!
Maurizio
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Reply #3 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by billy teabag
These things happen! Was it a simple case of an error in labelling or misidentification?
“The rose thought to be Auguste Comte” over here can sometimes look so much like ‘Maman Cochet’. At other times, the differences are very marked.
(In Oz it's been found in a number of places and has the study names "Not Mme Hoste", "Hay Valley Red Tea", "Nantawarra Pink" and there are probably more. Now that we know it better, we are recognising it in more and more places. It seems to be one of the more common surviving roses in cemeteries and the sites of old gardens.) It makes sense that the two roses should be similar – both roses are the result of ‘Marie van Houtte’ x ‘Mme Lambard’.

If I list the similarities and differences noticed in my garden will you check whether they match what you have seen in your plants?

Pedicel – ‘Maman Cochet’ has a basically smooth pedicel - the undercarriage of the bloom has a clean, smooth appearance. "The rose thought to be Auguste Comte" can have a smooth pedicel but it is more often glandular - sometimes very glandular.

Bloom colour - both roses range in colour and at times they are hard to tell apart, but when "?Auguste Comte" produces the darker coloured blooms with striking, intense carmine-red on the outer petals and the petal edges, they are not like anything seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (At the moment, our plants are producing very dark flowers – from a distance they look dark carmine – I cannot see any cream).

Foliage – Tea foliage can vary so much depending on climate, season and conditions and one always has to be careful saying anything is 'typical' but...... ‘Maman Cochet’ often has leaves that look 'quilted' because of the impressed veins and "?Auguste Comte" tends to have darker leaves with less impressed veins, often a denser appearance and a more pronounced point to the leaflet.

At certain times of the year "?Auguste Comte" will appear to set hips - some of them quite large - but if they are cut open, to date there have been no seeds - they are like the 'hips' formed by ‘Rosette Delizy’ - just full of fibrous material. I haven't seen these 'hips' forming on ‘Maman Cochet’.

One of the photos of “Bryan Freidel Pink Tea” on HMF shows a bud with a fresh green square-based receptacle and this is one of the things so often (but not always! – sometimes they have rounded bases) seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (Noelene Drage says it reminds her of a ‘saucepan on a stick’ – an association that sticks in my mind.)

Do these obs. mirror what you have found?

I hope it can be sorted out and that the correct 'Maman Cochet' will find its way into mainstream commerce over there. It is such a beautiful rose and incredibly hard working in hot climates.
It’s not easy deciding what’s what, especially when plants are young and capricious. “Nantawarra Pink” came to us as a matchstick with roots and as it slowly grew I thought it was ‘Maman Cochet’ and we were going to change the study name to “Nantawarra Cochet”. Then it grew some more and we realised that it was doing things that ‘Maman Cochet’ didn’t do and that it was in fact the same as “Not Mme Hoste” and was probably ‘Auguste Comte’.
All good fun.

Do you grow the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet'? Once established it is one of the most beautiful roses I know.
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Reply #4 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hello Billy,
the Rose in commerce in Europe as 'Chromathella' IS, in fact, the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet', and I have it -still young- in my garden.
I guess John has now the rightly named 'Chromatella', and I hope to have it soon in my garden :o)

I've checked your list for similarities, and I have to agree with every point of your list.
I have to add the following, using 'White Maman Cochet' to compare:

Bloom: '?Auguste Comte' have smaller flowers than 'White Maman Cochet', much more "globular" at the base, near the receptacle (I don't know how to correctly explain this in english, sorry). The bud is also less elongated, and petals have a different way to roll at the edges. In my climate, blooms on "?Auguste Comte" are easily scorched* by the sun, even in Spring: this never happens to "Bryan Friedel PT" or 'White Maman Cochet', even in August. (* unfortunately, many Teas, like 'Archiduc Joseph-Monsieur Tillier', are easily burnt in my climate).

I'm going to add some new pictures, both for 'Bryan Friedel Pink Tea" and "?Auguste Comte" - I hope they would be helpful.
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Reply #5 of 14 posted 29 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Maurizio - your description of the differences in bloom form are very clear and they match the roses we have here.
"?Auguste Comte" has produced a lot of blooms with unusually large receptacles this spring - some are so large they have split. Does this ever happen with yours? Spring has been milder than usual, with cooler spells and some cold nights so the swelling and splitting may have happened because the blooms have been developing more slowly than usual.
I planted the climbing form of Maman Cochet the other day. It's just a small cutting-grown plant at the moment so looking forward to seeing it grow up. I saw a well established one the other day - it had made its way high into some trees and those gorgeous nodding blooms were looking so good.
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Reply #14 of 14 posted 22 AUG 18 by Nastarana
Hardy to zone 4? A tea rose? If that is the case, I want one now.
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Reply #6 of 14 posted 16 JUN 13 by John Hook
Helen Good???
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Reply #7 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Maman Cochet is evergreen in zone 9b. Helen Good has been promising for "Bishop's Lodge Jane Isabella Linton" but "BL JIL" is deciduous in zone 9b. Would someone check the Bryan Friedel rose in winter please.
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Reply #8 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by John Hook
"BL JIL" , Bryan Friedel and Maman Cochet aren't synonymous in my opinion as we are growing all three
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Reply #9 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Thank you: we knew Maman Cochet was different from "BL JIL" but don't have "Bryan Friedel" here.
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Reply #10 of 14 posted 21 AUG 18 by HubertG
Just from reading descriptions and comments, and looking at all the photos here, I think 'Helen Good' is probably the most likely candidate for this rose, in my humble opinion.
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Reply #11 of 14 posted 21 AUG 18 by John Hook
We have this rose on our website as Helen Good with description
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Reply #12 of 14 posted 21 AUG 18 by Margaret Furness
I'd hoped that whether or not a rose was deciduous would help identification, but losing leaves in winter has turned out to be inconsistent across different gardens in similar weather zones.
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Reply #13 of 14 posted 21 AUG 18 by HubertG
Ah good, John! Reading a lot of the early catalogues it was pretty popular.
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most recent 26 MAR 18 SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 24 JUN 08 by Jocelyn Janon
In 1914 the breeders of this rose sent the following description to the 'Journal des Roses':

"Arbuste très florifère et vigoureux, fleur de jolie forme, rose violace clair; bouton allongé d'un superbe coloris nankin-rougeâtre luisant; pétales extérieurs nuancés de rose violace à onglet jaune safran."
i.e.
A purplish light pink flower, elongated bud of a superb nankin-red colour, shiny; outside petals purplish pink with a saffron yellow base.

In my opinion this is challenging the 'Clementina Carbonieri' as we know it today, which is, I think, probably wrongly identified.
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Reply #1 of 5 posted 29 JUN 08 by Unregistered Guest
In our climate C.C . is a mix of colors--pink, red, orange and yellow. No hint even of purple. Our plant, incidentally , is from Italy, where it was bred. If what we have is an impostor, wonder what it could be?
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Reply #2 of 5 posted 22 OCT 08 by Maurizio Usai
I wonder if our "Clementina" could be, in fact, the same rose we know as 'Isabelle Nabonnand', a rose largely grown in the Riviera as "Nonna Censy"...

Does anyone have any opinion about....?
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Reply #3 of 5 posted 18 NOV 08 by kai-eric
hello maurizio.

clementina carbonieri, isabelle nabonnand and even souvenir de gilbert nabonnand are very similar, indeed.
i received them from different sources: cc/beales, in/ loubert, sdgn/frenchtearoses. they showed same bloomcolours all over the season, getting darker and of a more vivid red shading in hotter times.
the leaves also shared the same characteristics: elongated elliptical, prominent tip, coarse and wide serrations, margins slightly ondulated, impressed second veins, of medium stoutness.
contemporary descriptions told the blossoms being semidouble which surely doesn't match the plants in question.
so what...? no idea which of the three it is.
for further observations, especially for bud, receptacle and pedicel, i must attend new season.
best wishes
kai-eric schwarz
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Reply #4 of 5 posted 26 APR 12 by Organic Roses-Honeybee Garden
Hmmm, what I think happened is a translation subtlety. Violace can actually mean an intense mauve pink and it could also refer to how Clementina starts out as an open bud. Indeed mine is a very hot neon mauve violet-pink if this makes sense. Mine is not red, but hot mauve.

My Clementina Carbonieri is very young but I noticed all the photos of it on HMF show a very short, stubby plant. HMF photos and my specific plant also show a far more sparse and outwardly branching habit (like the forking of a tree branch) Isabelle Nabonnand on the other hand, show a much taller, far more bushier plant on HMF. However, both have the same snaking bloom neck, same leaf shape, so perhaps they must somehow be related. Often this seems to happen with a lot of hybridizers when their rose picks up the same characteristics of the dominant parent and they are working within the same strain of plant.... Example, there are countless pink and cream striped roses constantly being developed that it's sometimes hard to tell one from another....

Finally I noticed that HMF photos consistently show Clementina as having very small flowers, whereas with Isabelle, often the blooms are significantly larger by comparison.

The final clue, I took a look at Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand and I'm thinking noooo way! Souvenir de Gilbert Nabonnand is MASSIVE from the photos on HMF. (Ref link: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.141868 ) The base of the rose is like tree trunks lol! and the canes exceptionally stout. The flowers are even more enlarged in size...Maybe what happened is the originating plant was Clementina, then others started to refine it for a larger bush size to Isabelle and finally Souvenir d.G. Nabonnand was bred so that it would serve better as large hedge or "shrub" rose.....???? Again these are just wild guesses on my part. But IMHO, Souvenire de Gilbert Nabonnand's is unlike both Clementina Carbonieri and Isabelle Nabonnand in terms of just the size and the growth habit.
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Reply #5 of 5 posted 26 MAR 18 by WarGar
My Clementina Carbonieri sprawls quite a bit and throws longish canes. I thought that was due to it being planted on the east side of my house (morning sun only) and for several years shaded additionally by a large hydrangea, since removed. I have avoiding pruning it severely due to my understanding that Teas dislike hard pruning. Perhaps it is time to attempt to tame it! My General Gallieni, nearby, is being swamped by the older (in terms of when it was planted in my garden) Clementina Carbonieri. Flowers of CC look as portrayed most commonly in photos, so either it's CC or something similar.
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most recent 23 OCT 17 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 22 OCT 17 by Maurizio Usai
Are you sure this is Manipur Magic? It looks more like 'Evergreen Gene' to me :) - just another wonderful rose.
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 22 OCT 17 by Izzy Garden
That's what the tag said from the vendor. I don't know if Evergreen Gene is available here in the US;)
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 23 OCT 17 by Maurizio Usai
It could be possible that they received budwood of EG rather than MMagic. Have a look at the pictures of EG and compare them with your rose :)
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 23 OCT 17 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Maurizio,

I supplied material for both these varieties to U.S. nurseries.

They are both wonderful. I'm not sure myself but you could be correct.

Best wishes, Robert
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 23 OCT 17 by Maurizio Usai
Thank you Robert! Just looking at Manipur Magic pictures because I want to plant it in my garden, and noticed that the rose in two of the pictures looked familiar :)
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 23 OCT 17 by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Yes, they are similar. Manipur Magic tend to be more double, more quartered. I think if we could get a better look at the buds up close it might be easier to make a determination. Of course we could ask Viru.
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 23 OCT 17 by Maurizio Usai
I saw the second, close-up picture and noticed that the outer petals have a coppery/pink shade which is typical of EG. The leaves of EG are not tipically Gigantea, much rounded in shape and coarser in texture.
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Reply #7 of 7 posted 23 OCT 17 by Izzy Garden
Well either way is still a great rose in my garden;)
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