HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Margaret Furness
most recent today HIDE POSTS
Initial post yesterday by HubertG
This looks so different from the photos of my Dr Grill that I've just posted. Is this always so evenly pink?
Reply #1 of 6 posted yesterday by Vesfl
It does indeed look different from the photo of your 'Dr. Grill'. The shrub was in full sun when I was taking this photo and I took this closeup of the blooms on the shady side of the shrub. The blooms are not always solid pink but have shades of light to darker pink and I hope that this can be seen, albeit from a distance, on another photo of the entire shrub I posted.

After reading your comment, I've looked up "Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens", a book written by the Australian authors, and they say that the original 'Dr. Grill' is not in commerce in Australia. On their profile of the 'William R. Smith' rose, which looks closer to yours judging from their photos, they write that it has been sold in Australia as 'Dr. Grill' and sometimes as 'Amelia Anderson'. I am not a rosarian, but hope this info helps. Either way, your rose looks absolutely stunning.
Reply #2 of 6 posted yesterday by HubertG
Thank you Vesfl. Yes, there does seem to be some confusion over Dr Grill here (and elsewhere). I'm pretty certain my bush isn't W R Smith or Amelia Anderson, as mine sets hips and doesn't ball.
Reply #3 of 6 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
And see the description page of Dr Grill: the rose grown under that name in the US is not the original Dr Grill.
Reply #4 of 6 posted today by Patricia Routley
HubertG - would you like us to make a "study file" for your rose in question? Since you are not positive about the provenance, I suggest a study name something like "HubertG's possible Dr. Grill", but you might come up with something more appropriate. You could then move your photos out of the 'Dr. Grill' file and this may help to lessen the confusion over 'Dr. Grill'.
We could link your account with this "rose file" and you could add as much information as you like on this rose over the years. Unfortunately we are unable to move the Comments relating to your foundling, so they would have to stop where they are.
Reply #5 of 6 posted today by HubertG
Patricia, no, I actually think that my rose is most likely to be the real Dr. Grill. It wasn't a foundling. I did purchase it as Dr Grill from Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery, it's just that we don't seem to know where they sourced their stock. It isn't the Dr Grill that appears to be William R Smith or Amelia Anderson, judging by appearances and fertility, balling etc.
Regarding why I think it is likely to be the original (no evidence of course, just considered speculation) boils to down to a number of factors. Firstly, it matches the descriptions of being variably coppery yellow to fawn pink, which mine is. I do believe it has similarities most with the Moon illustration particularly in the colouring and the commentary say that the colours are faithfully represented, but also in the formation of the flowers. The growth habit matches the early descriptions being angular/awkward. It always opens well, at least I never remember seeing it ball. Secondly, when I look at the parents of Dr Grill, particularly Souvenir de Victor Hugo, I can see strong similarities with my rose, particularly with the incurving central petals, the high centred form and the coppery colour. When I look at the picture of Parsefal which has Dr Grill as a parent, I can easily see my rose in it. I do believe that the early breeders must have seen something special in Dr Grill to use it in crossing with the early Hybrid Teas. When I look at some of the other European Dr Grill's here, although the colours seem correct on some, some of them are somewhat insubstantial in form and I wonder if a breeder back then would have used such a rose to create roses like Antoine Rivoire, Mme Abel Chatenay etc. Thirdly is the scent which isn't strong but is distinctly hay scented. Not too many roses claim to have such a scent. I know you can't smell it, you'll just have to take my word.
Lastly, Dr Grill was available at least in Sydney to at least WWII and possibly later, it certainly isn't inconceivable that bushes survived and cuttings were passed around. I speculated in another post that Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery might have sourced it from a local nursery that had some rare old HT's. I mentioned Columbia. I now remember Korovo was another of the old HT's being sold there that I don't think was in the catalogues of the time. This is purely speculation on my part but maybe they sourced my Dr Grill from there and it came from a old known local plant.

Anyway, as I said previously I don't know that my rose is the correct Dr Grill, but that could probably be said about any of the photos of Dr Grill here, so it would be a pity to give it a separate listing, especially as the case for it being correct is reasonably strong in my opinion.

I can certainly stop spamming the Dr Grill section with my photos if you like, but because it is so variable and beautiful, there always seems to be another shot to post.
Reply #6 of 6 posted today by HubertG
Patricia, on second thought it might be better to move it to a new listing. Whatever it is, as long as anyone looking up Dr Grill's page can find a link to it that's OK with me. That way I can photo-spam all I like lol.
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 days ago by HubertG
Possibly a contender for the Nantawarra Pink?
Reply #1 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
Can't say it would have occurred to me to call my "Nantawarra Pink" violet-shaded. Its colour is very variable, but I haven't seen any sporting as such. Mme Cusin seems to have been unstable with unstable sports.
Interesting that a couple of references say Mme Cusin is vigorous, whereas Dr H Thomas says it isn't a strong grower. Not in his garden, perhaps.
The 1903 reference says "the thorns are somewhat poisonous." I wonder what that meant?
Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
I imagine "poisonous" in this context could refer to the thorns being a huge drawback to its salabilty in the cut flower trade. Only guessing though.
I haven't grown Nantawarra pink. I had just posted a description of Mme Badin which said it was reminiscent of Mme Cusin, so just throwing that thought out there. as they both have that crimson pink shading.
Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
You are re-inventing the wheel. Have you had a close look at the page for 'Nantawarra Pink Tea"?
Reply #4 of 4 posted yesterday by HubertG
You are saying Nantawarra pink isn't thorny? I wouldn't know, I was only going off the colour similarities.

It would be better to have separate entries on HMF for renamed old roses and historical named varieties if they haven't been proven to be the same yet, in my humble opinion. A link could be provided to the other roses in any particular entry if the roses are suspected to be the same.
most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 days ago by Vesfl
A few days ago I was again on a brief visit to New Orleans and visited this garden. I've met the curator and would ask you to please add his name to the information about this public garden:
Mr. Leo Watermeier, the curator of the Louis Armstrong Park Rose Garden, New Orleans
I'm not sure if you need the reference, but in case you do, he is affiliated with the New Orleans Old Garden Rose Society.

Also, if you kindly please add a few more roses to the plants grown in this park:
Comtesse Riza du Parc (tea, 1876)
Gloire de Dijon ((tea-noisette, 1850)
Madame Laurette Messimy (china, 1887)
Maréchal Niel (tea-noisette, 1864)
Rêve d'Or (tea-noisette, 1869)
Souvenir d’un Ami (tea, 1846)

I've posted the photos of most of these as well as others from my last trip this month. Thank you in advance.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Aha - I recall meeting Mr. Watermeier at the 2010 Heritage Roses in Australia conference in Brisbane and there is a rather nice photograph of him in the HelpMeFind file for "Carlsruhe Cemetery Maria Bruhn".

His name is now added as Curator, and I have added those roses.
Many thanks Vesfi
Reply #2 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
Also in the Devoniensis file, another photo taken at Carlsruhe cemetery.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Vesfl
Patricia, when I met Mr. Watermeier earlier this month, he spoke very fondly about his fellow Australian rosarians and also highly recommended an Australian book about tea roses. He is a wonderful and generous gentleman with an amazing knowledge about roses.
most recent 4 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 FEB by Margaret Furness
Tea IDs are often messy. I'm told that the rose sold as Dr Grill in Australia is usually William R Smith, and the true Dr Grill may be the rose sold in Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc.
Elsewhere it is also complicated: see the description page. "'Dr. Grill' in USA is not the original rose. 'Mme Lombard' is sold in Europe sometimes as 'Dr. Grill'."
Reply #1 of 29 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
Reply #2 of 29 posted 22 FEB by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
Reply #3 of 29 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
Reply #4 of 29 posted 22 FEB by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
Reply #5 of 29 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
Reply #6 of 29 posted 23 FEB by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
Reply #7 of 29 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
Reply #8 of 29 posted 24 FEB by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
Reply #9 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I've just posted a few more photos of my Dr Grill from 2016 which show a more coppery yellow predominating. They are all from my one bush.
Reply #10 of 29 posted 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
Blooms of many tea roses are quite changeable in their colour. Take a look at Billy Teabag's photo of ' William R. Smith' at Araluen Botanic Park, near Perth, Western Australia, Spring 2011. You need to photograph your whole bush, showing the skeleton of it if you can.
Reply #11 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Even if William R Smith comes yellowy at times, my Dr Grill is never white or creamy white flushed pink, so I still can't see it as being W R Smith.
Billy's WRSmith has rather brownish red flower stems like in the George C Thomas 1914 photo, mine are always green. This could just be a cultivation thing - I don't know. I don't think it's your Amelia Anderson either because mine doesn't ball. Some of the photos here of WRSmith certainly look as if they are different roses. There seems to be a lot of confusion around.
It's interesting that Jedmar has posted a Charles Dingee from Sangerhausen and the Rumsey's imported a Dr Grill from Sangerhausen as well. At least this suggests they had two separate roses.
Reply #12 of 29 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
And Margaret's pink ones!!!
That plant at Araluen is magnificent! There are two really strong and healthy plants at Araluen - one came to them as "BL Amelia Anderson" and the other as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]".
The two plants in my garden are not as pleasing. One came from the same source as Araluen's "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and the other was propagated from a very old plant of 'W.R. Smith' in a garden in Guildford. They produce absolutely beautiful blooms at times but have been slow to build up their skeletons and they look very ungainly and lop-sided compared with the bushes at Araluen. They seem to be heavy feeders and are one of the first roses in the garden to tell me I'm late with their food.
I usually either cut the blooms or deadhead them, so will leave the next ones on to see whether they make any hips here.
Reply #13 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
My Dr Grill is never THAT pink!
Billy, do you have any photos of the flowers of the old plant from Guildford of W R Smith?

So your photo of William R Smith (photo ID 184609) is Dr Grill from Sangerhausen?
Reply #14 of 29 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I haven't seen them that pink on mine either (yet) but Teas are full of surprises and as soon as you say 'never', they are likely to do something bizarre. Most Teas vary in colour and form with the seasons but the really odd variations often happen a few weeks after extreme fluctuations in temperature or extreme weather events.
I have slides of the old plant in Guildford but haven't had them digitised. You can take my word for it that it's the same as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson".
I'll have a look through my photo files to see if there are any photos of the plant propagated from it.

(Yes - the provenance of 'W.R. Smith' photographed at Araluen can be traced back to the rose Heather Rumsey received from Sangerhausen as Dr Grill.)
Reply #15 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Thanks. An old known specimen of W R Smith would be very interesting to view.
When I search for Bishop's Lodge Amelia Anderson it just takes me to William R Smith. They are definitely the same rose?
Reply #16 of 29 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
Yes. David Ruston grew them for many years and so it was possible to compare the established plants over the seasons in his garden. By chance, plants of "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson" and "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" were positioned side by side in Melville's nursery near Perth, and we were able to study them closer to home as well.
Reply #17 of 29 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
It's a survivor in old gardens in at least three states. We have as synonyms "Edna Stapleton's Tea" (SA - that's where mine came from, via Pat) and "East Nanango Forestry Tea" (Qld).
Reply #18 of 29 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I just uploaded a couple of old catalogue photos of "Charles Dingee". The photos that Billy Teabag just posted of the Guildford WR Smith bears a striking resemblance (and Billy's tea is creamy white and pink - and very beautiful).
Now I want to grow this Guildford W R Smith.
Reply #19 of 29 posted 27 FEB by HubertG
Billy Teabag's W R Smith from Guildford looks most like Jean Harrison's photos of her W R Smith.

Do you know if this particular Guildford specimen is in commerce as I'd like to grow it? Also, it would be fabulous to upload those 2 photos under William R Smith, since they only appear under Q & C.
Reply #20 of 29 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
My specimen of Dr Grill was in fact purchased from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002, not 8-9 years ago as I mentioned earlier. I found an old dated photo.
Reply #21 of 29 posted 13 days ago by HubertG
Just thinking about the possible origin of my Dr Grill. I bought mine from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002. Once I also visited another nursery which was nearby to Honeysuckle either at Richmond or Windsor (I can't remember it's name either). It was run by a very elderly gent. Basically it existed of his house surrounded by a paddock full of potted roses. He had the roses I enquired about ready for me when I arrived (Jessie Clark was one). Looking around I remember he had some unusual early Hybrid Tea varieties I hadn't seen in any other nursery. There was a beautiful Columbia that I wish I had purchased at the time, and others I can't remember the names of now. I always had the impression that he had grown these old HT's for years or had sourced them locally. I don't remember him having Dr Grill specifically but I do wonder whether he had this from an old local bush and if Honeysuckle Cottage had purchased some of their stock including their Dr Grill from him because he was so close to them.
This is speculation of course, but I just can't see my Dr Grill being William R Smith; they look too different.
My bush currently has about 10 hips on it, and about the same non-developing or withered hips which doesn't add up if W R Smith is not meant to set hips. Plus my Dr Grill doesn't ball.
Reply #22 of 29 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
Some of the photos of Ah Mow look very much like my Dr Grill, although those petals look a bit more delicate and the foliage looks different.
Reply #23 of 29 posted 5 days ago by HubertG
Just an update on the question of hips. This is the hip from my Dr, Grill that I posted above on 24 Feb (the first photo). There were 10 normal looking seeds inside. I'll plant them and see if there is a good germination rate. There are about 9 other hips on my bush right now that aren't ripe yet.
Reply #24 of 29 posted 5 days ago by billy teabag
HubertG, how does your Dr Grill compare to "Comtesse Riza du Parc [in commerce as]"?
Are the receptacles always the semi-globular shape seen on your bud photo, or are they sometimes more globular like those in the old portraits?
Reply #25 of 29 posted 5 days ago by HubertG
Billy, they aren't the same rose judging from the photos. Mine always has that semi-globular receptacle and perfectly smooth glandless stems, whereas (as you note) the NotCRdP has that distinctive oval receptacle. Also, my Dr Grill flowers are usually solitary (maybe a cluster of 3-4 on a water shoot) whereas 3- 4 flowers per shoot appears to be the norm on the photos of NotCRdP.
Look at the photo by David Elliott (ID176376) of the Dr Grill growing in the Parc de la Tete d'Or. Even though that photo was posted on its side (lol) that looks like my Dr Grill and gives you an idea of the awkward habit that I imagine comes from the Noisette parent. The flowers in the background look the same as mine too. You can also see a few hips if you zoom in. If the NotCRdP sets hips on just about every flower that doesn't sound like the description of Dr Grill in the Rosen-Zeitung that describes an enthusiast being excited over 4-5 ripe hips on their Dr Grill.
How does the NotCRdP smell? My Dr Grill does have that unusual hay scent. I could never quite place what it smelt like until I read the hay reference. Then it was an 'Aha!' moment. I hadn't smelt hay in years and just couldn't put my finger on it.
Reply #26 of 29 posted 5 days ago by Margaret Furness
Well, if you feel inclined to send a few cuttings this way... Who knows, a miracle might happen, and after 4 years of rumours of "imminent purchase of Ruston's" it might just happen. And the air would be full of flying pigs.
Reply #27 of 29 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Margaret, sure I'll send cuttings to you ladies but it'll have to wait till I collect the hips because I want to try and germinate them. In fact, using the last flush I made a few crosses using Lorraine Lee pollen and a few others. I've become intrigued with my Dr Grill because I didn't know it was so in doubt.
Reply #28 of 29 posted 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thank you - when the time comes, contact me via private message for my address. Good luck with the crosses!
Reply #29 of 29 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Sure Margaret, no worries. Thanks!

Billy, I didn't answer your enquiry about the old portraits.
The receptacles are depicted differently in all three pictures. My Dr. Grill receptacle is closest to the Journal des Roses depiction, but I think my flower form is closest to the Moon painting with the outer "shell like" petals falling away displaying the centre well . The Rosen Zeitung bud receptacle is rather narrow and odd. To be honest I don't think these can be used as any sort of real botanical proof of receptacles, but they are interesting. The accurate depiction of a bud receptacle probably wasn't the greatest priority for the artist whose main purpose was to depict the flower form and colour. That Moon bud could have just been painted in for artistic balance after the main flowers were finished. The Rosen-Zeitung portrait is the hardest from which to make any sort of botanical sense. Also, I think the medium the artist used could make a big difference to the final result. The Moon painting looks like a gouache, but I really don't know how these pictures were technically reproduced back then. Maybe you could look at some of Moon's other paintings of confirmed roses to see how accurately he paints those bud details in them.
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