HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Margaret Furness
most recent 4 OCT HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 OCT by AquaEyes
Has anyone compared this rose to "Schmidt's Smooth Yellow"?

I know there's a feeling that rose may be 'Eugenie Lamesch' but old depictions of that rose show prickles. Pictures of 'George Elger' seem to indicate a "smooth" rose. And the buds and blooms are very similar.

Something to think about.


Reply #1 of 3 posted 4 OCT by Margaret Furness
Both have the square-topped buds, and fade to cream. Can't help much, because as far as I can see they're not grown on the same continent.
The plant at Renmark came from Trewallyn Nursery, but it isn't on their current list.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 4 OCT by AquaEyes
Well, one thing to ask -- does your GE have prickles? The foundling in the US is so-named because it lacks prickles.

There is another possible way to confirm if SSY = GE, and that would be to do a DNA test of SSY as a possible mother of 'Sunshine', whose seed-parent was listed as being GE.


Reply #3 of 3 posted 4 OCT by Margaret Furness
I'll check next time I'm in Renmark, which probably won't be till late November. And take cuttings.
most recent 3 OCT HIDE POSTS
Initial post 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
The reference from 1938 is worth noting.
Reply #1 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Rubiginosa is the same, nothing for two years then up they come like mustard and cress.
Reply #3 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
Hi, Andrew! I'm wondering if the seeds need multiple stratification: warm-cold-warm-cold? I've germinated most of my seeds with just the cold stratification. Usually I get a bazillion seedlings. I'll post my progress as I go along.
Reply #2 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
I'll check the reference you mentioned, Margaret! Thanks so much! It's interesting to note how many of these (I assume) R. canina plants pop up in the hedge rows around here. I know that in general, the rows have been purposely planted, so I'm likely finding selections of R. canina. That said, there's quite a bit of variation in the quantity of hips per plant, and the manner in which the hips are presented, ie: clusters of hips vs. single hips. I've been harvesting from plants bearing the most hips, especially those in clusters, hoping for the most floriferous seedlings..
Reply #4 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Jeffrey,
I sowed the seeds in autumn of 2015, kept them on the kitchen window sill but nothing grew. They were kept cool and shaded through the following summer then taken inside in February of this year. They started germinating after just a week.
Reply #6 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
I put my seeds in damp vermiculite, store them in the refrigerator for 30 to 90 days, sometimes the seeds sprout while in the bag, so I have to watch closely. If I see root tips developing, I sow the seedlings in community trays. I almost always get great germination in a week or two. The temperature has to be below 40ºF and above 32ºF. The narrow range deactivates the chemical that inhibits germination. Freezing can kill the embryo, and warmer temps, temps we'd be comfortable, aren't cold enough. It's an interesting mechanism, I think.
Reply #7 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Just be aware that in some parts of your country these introduced species are invasive weeds.
Reply #8 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
I just triple checked the r. canina situation in California. It is in fact loose out west, but the USDA listing has it as "present" in certain counties. I'll look at this more closely. We have so many invasives: scotch broom, acacia, blackberry, etc... I definitely don't want to worsen the situation. Thanks for the reminder.
Reply #9 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
You can always do what Patricia Routley does and remove the hips before they become soft and birds (in her case parrots) eat them and distribute the seeds.
In your climate it will probably require plenty of water and protection from the mid-day sun.
Reply #10 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
I have parrots, too. So far they only get into my neighbor's cotoneaster. I will be growing these in Petaluma, farther north, but to strip a big bush, or in fact several big bushes might be too much to deal with. I will be contain the hips when I make crosses, if I do this, but still, the problem could get out of hand. I'll check with my county agent when I get back. If it's an invasive then I'll rethink this.

I so appreciate your input. I wish I had time to visit your garden, if you permit such a thing. Alas, I'm an impoverished senior student at university.
Reply #11 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
I checked the USDA list of introduced, invasive, and noxious plants for California more thoroughly, and R. canina is not on it. Neither is R. glauca, the other hips I found. R. canina does show as being in the state, however. To be safe, I'll send a note to the Agent to be sure.
Reply #12 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
If they are not on any invasive list would you like me to send you seeds of Rosa arvensis and Rosa dumalis?
Reply #13 of 17 posted 2 OCT by Jeffrey
Wow! That'd be swell. R. arvensis for sure. I have some R. dumalis chilling in my fridge in San Francisco right now, but if yours are open pollinated, and there's a chance of an interesting bee-assisted cross, send 'em on! I think to San Francisco, not here. I'm not sure I can even take the ones I have through customs. To declare or not to declare, that is the question.

I'll send a personal note with my address.
Reply #14 of 17 posted 2 OCT by Margaret Furness
I'm being a party-spoiler again... The fines for both sender and recipient of quarantine-banned items are massive, even if one party is innocent. And it's not worth it, given how much a country suffers from pest species.
For interest, and off at a tangent, have a look at
Reply #15 of 17 posted 2 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
I never realised it was illegal to send seeds. We have our own introduced problems in the old world too. I am just seeing the first effects on ash saplings in front of my cottage of Chalara, or ash die back disease, is as potentially damaging as Dutch elm disease was fifty years ago.
Reply #16 of 17 posted 2 OCT by Margaret Furness
Sending seeds isn't something I've gone into in detail. Some are OK, those that have a risk of becoming invasive are frowned upon. Always ask first, is the answer.
Reply #17 of 17 posted 3 OCT by Jeffrey
I love this lively exchange, I really do, but I had no idea it was so complicated. I can check on R. arvensis seeds as to invasiveness, and if I need a permit to bring them back with me. I assume the Floribunda seeds I have are OK, but I won't take a chance. The company that bred that rose is here near Chester. Their company ships overseas, so I may order a plant or two for my own hips.

So... Andrew... Have you done any crosses with R. arvensis?
Reply #5 of 17 posted 1 OCT by Jeffrey
Margaret, I just looked at the reference you so kindly mentioned. Thank-you again. The two-year period before germination, and Andrew's note makes me think these seeds require two cycles of warm/cold stratification. I've had success by going 30 days moist warm, thirty days moist cold, then repeat. It shortens the period for germination by a lot.
most recent 2 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 AUG by Nastarana
Rose Listing Omission

La Virginale alba Dumont de Courset 1802

That information comes from the caption to the photo taken at L'Hay des Roses by ValerieF23. Unfortunately the photo has been filed under the HP 'Virginale' .

Trevor Griffiths, in My World of Old Roses, has a photo and an entry for an alba named 'La Virginale'. The photo is on page 60 of that book. It shows what looks to be the same rose as appears in the photo by ValerieF23. It shows a white very double flower which does not, to me, resemble 'Great Maiden's Blush'. The flower in both pictures shows green at the center of the bloom, just as do Mme. Hardy and Mme. Plantier.

I hope it is allowed and legal to quote Griffiths' entry.

"La Virginale. A rose which is not very well known. It is pure white and fragrant and very double. The flowers are about 50mm across and are prolific on a 1.5 meter plant with bright green foliage. 'La Virginale' reminds me of another Alba rose, 'Mme. Plantier'."

Photos of that rose and well as of GMB are shown on the facing page 61 in My World of Old Roses, for easy comparison. Griffiths' and ValerieF23's LV is clearly not GMB.

Vintage Gardens was at one time growing a Damask called 'La Virginale' , which, the proprietors told me, was probably the same rose as Griffiths had.

Whether LV is best thought of as an alba or Damask I cannot say, never having seen it, but I think it was or is if it still lives at L'Hay not the same rose as GMB.
Reply #1 of 10 posted 11 AUG by Patricia Routley
Member Valerie F23 appears not to have been on HelpMeFind for over a year.

I wonder if it is possible that her photo is that of 'Mme. Plantier' mislabelled.
Trevor Griffiths said the rose he had as 'La Virginale' reminded him of 'Mme Plantier' and his photo has the same receptacle and folioles as I see in member Mashamlc's photo of 'Mme. Plantier' taken at San Jose in April 2010.

As far as I can find, the only rose that Dumont de Courset bred was a musk 'Muscade Semi-Double Rose' before 1820.
When looking for 'La Virginale' Brent Dickerson (Old Roses: The Master List 2nd. Ed., p338) refers me on to two pink roses.
There was no 'La Virginale' listed at L'Hay in their 1900 list.
Reply #2 of 10 posted 30 SEP by Nastarana
I have found two more references to 'La Virginale'.

Phillips and Rix, The Quest for the Rose, p. 16. has both a photo and description of an alba they name 'La Virginale'

"La Virginale. an alba. More double than Semi-plena, less double than Maxima. Raised by Moreau-Robert in France, launched in 1840."

The Illustrated Encyclopedia of Roses, ed. Mary Moody, cons. ed. Peter Harkness, 1992, has an entry for 'La Virginale' in the section on albas, p.59. "Origin unknown" this source claims. no photo

Could we possibly have a separate entry for 'La Virginale'? The picture from Martin and Rix does not look like MP or GMB at all. If the M & R photo had not been labeled, I would have said it was alba suavolens.
Reply #3 of 10 posted 30 SEP by jedmar
All these references are from after 1980. Before we create a new entry for 'La Virginale' we need to see if this name existed in the 19th century, or was it just added to a found rose by Trevor Griffiths. I do not see that 'La Virginale' is mentioned as a synonym for 'Great Maiden's Blush' earlier than 1984 either. This needs some more research.
Reply #4 of 10 posted 30 SEP by jedmar
There actually seems to have been an Alba 'Virginale', bred by the Pépinière de St Cloud, before 1824. However this had semi-double, cluster-flowered blooms.
Reply #5 of 10 posted 30 SEP by Nastarana
Foolish me, here I thought that recent sources meant that the plant actually must be growing somewhere.
Reply #6 of 10 posted 1 OCT by jedmar
Well, there seems to be a rose named 'La Virginale' whose photos have been shown in some publications; however this is most probably not the Alba from St.Cloud. There is history that this alba survived the 19th century. Someone mus have, as usual, "identified" this as 'La Virgianle'. It may be the same as Alba suaveolens, as you thought.
Reply #7 of 10 posted 1 OCT by Nastarana
I only know of Trevor Griffiths through his two books, which I like very much. Was he known for off the top of his head identifications? Would you happen to know if his gardens and rose plantings survived his death?
Reply #8 of 10 posted 2 OCT by jedmar
Patricia, I think you would know better the going-ons in Down Under.
Reply #9 of 10 posted 2 OCT by Margaret Furness
TG said something like: The worst mistake you can make is to assume that your plant is the correct one.
The Trevor Griffiths Rose Garden is worth looking up.
Reply #10 of 10 posted 2 OCT by Patricia Routley
I am 3000 miles from New Zealand, and have few N.Z. references.
Trevor spent his life gardening and travelled widely, so I believe he knew his roses. During my 2006 visit to the Trevor Griffiths garden in Timaru as far as I could see, the actual roses in the garden did not correspond exactly with the permanent signage there - and this is quite logical when you think of the changing nature of a garden.
Being on the sidelines of a 2006 conversation in New Zealand, I overheard a discussion wherein the Heritage group were trying to get budwood of any roses from Trevor’s private garden, but there were difficulties.
I have sent a private message to Daphne Whitfort-Smith to see if she can help further.
most recent 21 SEP HIDE POSTS
Initial post 21 SEP by mamabotanica
Any advice for a zone 10 gardener? I have two one year old budded Wollerton bushes in the front and they are sending out long octopus arms. I wonder if I used a 7 ft trellis or obelisk if they would quickly overwhelm it or if it makes sense to tame them with something structural? Do I need one per rose or could I combine both of them on one structure? Or am I foolish in expecting that anything will tame a rose that wants to grow long tall canes that flop over neighboring plants?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 21 SEP by Andrew from Dolton
If you pegged these long shoots down would they flower all the way along their length?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 21 SEP by mamabotanica
That would be lovely! Hoping someone with experience will weigh in
Reply #3 of 3 posted 21 SEP by Margaret Furness
Pegging down doesn't work well in my zone 9b climate (South Australia) unless you mulch very heavily underneath, because the grass/weeds keep growing all winter. We generally go for the espalier / training on a trellis option. I haven't tried an obelisk so can't comment on that.
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