HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Margaret Furness
most recent 4 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 8 days ago by HubertG
I'm hoping one of the tea ladies can help with this rose. It is planted in the Barbara May Rose Garden at Rookwood Cemetery in Sydney, Australia, so I assume it's a foundling that has been renamed, but I'd like to know what name it has been given so I can look at more photos of it. It appears to be an intermediate between a Tea and a China, bright dark red, and velvety (my photographs don't pick this quality up that well). I've been looking at my photos and the early photos and illustrations of 'Princesse de Sagan' and seeing similarities, I am wondering if they could be the same.
Reply #1 of 14 posted 8 days ago by Jay-Jay
Maybe better photographing it in the morning- or evening light or on a cloudy day. Better red colors and less UV.
Reply #2 of 14 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
I agree. It fact I hadn't planned a visit here at all and was just nearby and decided to drop in and it was about noon. I was using my phone to photograph the rose, and dark or bright reds are always difficult to capture accurately with it. None of the roses were labelled. I'm really curious about this one. This photo captures the velvet a bit better but is out of focus.
Reply #3 of 14 posted 8 days ago by Jay-Jay
It looks (as if) without prickles.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
It did have thorns, but wasn't overly thorny. You can see a couple on the branch at the top right here.
Reply #5 of 14 posted 8 days ago by Margaret Furness
Billy Teabag is off air for while.
The garden is looked after by the Sydney branch of Heritage Roses in Australia. I'll send a contact email address via pm.
I don't know if they planted "Camnethan Cherry-red" there. The plant given the study name was collected in Victoria.
To quote (from memory) the Indian Rose Journal: Plants in public gardens should be labelled, as the public like to know what they're stealing.
Reply #6 of 14 posted 8 days ago by Jay-Jay
Reply #7 of 14 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
I have grown "Camnethan Cherry Red" before and my impression was they weren't the same rose.
And I can't believe I forgot to smell it, although simply standing near it I didn't detect a perfume.
Reply #8 of 14 posted 6 days ago by Patricia Routley
If you were able to find out, I would love to know its “study name” HubertG
Reply #9 of 14 posted 6 days ago by HubertG
I sent a message to the lady who should know. I'll post its study name as soon as I find out.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 4 days ago by Patricia Routley
Take a look at the file "J. Datson" (syn :Frank Veal"). Sorry I am not able to search for more info for a couple of days but will get back to it and add whatever I find.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
"J Datson" at Renmark is low-growing, pretty much "just another China". I think the flowers are smaller than in your photos.
Reply #13 of 14 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Just regarding the possibility of this rose being 'Princesse de Sagan':-
There are a few more recently posted early American catalogue photos of PdS (and bear in mind that they MAY not be accurate) which are a bit at odds with the rather shaggy open flowers in the Henry Moon illustration. However looking at this rose at Rookwood, the opening flowers are rather cupped, with a rounded outline that tends to match these photos. The petals only seem to reflex when they are more open. The drawing in the Journal des Roses actually bears a fair resemblance to some of these Rookwood blooms, but the most notable point about this illustration for me is that the bud receptacles are a close match for our rose, as are the spacing and poise of the loose clusters. The bud shown in the Geroge H. Mellem 1906 drawing (which looks to me like it's done from a photo) shows a very similar bud shape. The notable point for me about the Moon painting is that the terminal leaflet is rather long and attenuated (compare to the KAV leaves alongside) and this does match the Rookwood rose (see my 4th photo for a fair example).
Here's another photo of an opening bloom still with its rounded outline. There are about 5 rows of petals and you can just see the stamens. It's interesting that one of the American catalogues call PdS "The crimson Brabant" and I wonder if it is because of this cup shape and it's freedom of bloom.
Reply #12 of 14 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Thanks Patricia, I had a quick look at "J. Datson" which seems to be very similar to 'Cramoisi Superieur'.
The rose I photographed had flowers too large to be a China like that, with blooms maybe 2 1/2" to 3" across (just guessing from memory). Small to medium for a tea but too large for the classic red china class. There were in fact a couple of typical red Chinas in that Rookwood garden, one was small and barely more than single with a white eye from memory.
Edit: I just saw your post, Margaret, yes I agree with you. Here's another photo of the mystery rose.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
The nearly-single China with a white eye has the study name "Jane Vaughn". I no longer have it.
most recent 5 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 5 days ago by Diana B
When I do a Search/Lookup on 'William R. Smith,' I get the error message "We did not find any plants matching your search name." However, when I Googled the rose name, it led me to the correct page at helpmefind! That page is, but you can't access it from within helpmefind.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 5 days ago by Margaret Furness
The search engine doesn't cope well with punctuation. William R Smith finds it.
most recent 10 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 days ago by Margaret Furness
Lovely rose but thornless only if you don't count the nasty hooks on the backs of the leaves. Not one to deal with bare-handed.
most recent 11 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 12 days ago by Margaret Furness
This rose was known for a long time, incorrectly, as Bloomfield Abundance, but that name belongs to another rose. This one is now known as Spray Cecile Brunner. I would suggest transferring the photo to the file of Spray Cecile Brunner. Nice photo.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
Judging by the open blooms, I would guess that Rosaplant’s rose is in fact, ‘Mlle. Cecile Brunner’.
My own-root ‘Mlle. Cecile Brunner’ (provenance: Sandie in 2009, who swore it was Mlle. Cecile Brunner) flowered just like those blooms for years, and this year, cool wet spring, it is putting up sprays, exactly like this photo. I stand and stare at it in puzzlement.
In my garden ‘Mlle. Cecile Brunner’ and ‘Mlle. Cecile Brunner Climbing’ flower exactly four weeks earlier than ‘Spray Cecile Brunner’.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 11 days ago by Margaret Furness
I thought it was Spray CB because the buds show foliaceous sepals.
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