HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Lyn G
AuthorDiscussion id : 8-917
most recent 16 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 JUN 05 by Unregistered Guest
My roses are just not producing and are not healthy. All my roses are in large pots. All winter I mixed into the soil of all rose pots ground up banana peals, egg shells, orange peals, coffee grounds, etc. from kitchen. About a month ago I added two cups of Terosia (5-8-2) to each of my 25+ pots (pots are 23"w x 20"h). At the same time I mixed into the soil Bone Meal, Epsom salts, alfalfa meal, and spray about every other week with Orthenex and Soda & dish drops (1 tbs/gal). Most rose bushes do not have a lot of foliage and some plants leaves have turned yellow and blsck tips...have I burned them? Plants that have eatern & southern sun are doing very well with a lot of new growth. plants with southern exposure are not doing well. most are not producing blooms as much as I'd wish?!?!!?

I’m really messing up! I do have .jpg format pictures I'd be glad to forward that would give you a better perspective of my problem plants. if you want to let me know your email address I'll send them at your request. I'm with GE Financial and my system is extremely secure and updated daily so I can assure anything I send you will be clean and not put your system at risk.

Any guidance that will make me a hero in raising bountiful healthy roses is appreciated!! I'm so frustrated and want to learn everything i can to have the garden that others always enjoy viewing!!
Jack A. Smelser
Redmond, WA (Seattle area)
Reply #1 of 11 posted 2 JUN 05 by Lyn G
Jack, I am not Kim, but have worked with him for years, so I am going to jump in here and see if I can help. I have also grown both miniature and large roses in containers both in southern and northern California for well over ten years and may be able find a way to help you take care of your roses that doesn't require so much work and stress.

I am not a true organic gardener, so many of the additives you mention are something I have not used. I use a good potting soil that will hold water, but is not so heavy that the roses are sitting in mud after I water them. Roses need good drainage, so I do not put a saucer under the pot because that can lead to root rot if the rose is left in standing water. I also lift the pot up a bit from the hardscape to make sure I get good drainage.

You didn't say whether your roses were new roses in their maiden year or older roses you have had for some time, so I can't address the differences in care too much in this post.

Some rosarians will "pot up" a new rose....putting them in a smaller pot and then when the rose out grows that one, move the plant to a larger pot. I don't follow this practice at all because I don't like to disturb the roots of a rose, if I can avoid it. I just plop the rose into it's final container. I try to use at least a 7 gal pot for miniatures and 15 to 20 for larger roses.

When I plant the rose about 2/3 down in the pot, I put a tablespoon of bone meal and some 10-10-10 time released plant food. I'll put more near the top 6 inches of soil before I am finished because the feeder roots of the roses are near the surface of the soil.

Once I have planted the rose, I mulch the pot and water daily until I see new top growth. At that point, I know the root system is beginning to work properly. Then I do a drench feed with Miracle Grow. Organics are not readily available to the plant because it takes time for bacteria to break them down into nutrients the rose can use. MG works just fine. I feed about every two weeks and make sure the roses do not dry out in their pots.

I never add any kind of salts to a container grown rose because there is always a salt build-up in the pots from other kinds of fertilizers.

You have already figured out that the roses need sun. Other things to remember is that you can't count on rain to water your plants for you when they are in containers. The rain bounces off of the leaves and may never reach the soil in your container. Containers placed too close to a structure are subject to reflected heat from the structure and the hardscape, so you do have to be careful where you place the plants. I'll often move a rose around to a different location if I think that might make the plant perform better.

Note: When I first started working with Kim, one of the things he had me do was read every rose book I could get my hands on, both picture books and those which were pure text. You can't really learn how to grow roses from books, but it does inform what you do in the garden. You learn to grow roses by growing roses and making mistakes and having successes.

If you would like to contact me privately, as Kim's plate is very full right now, you can reach me here at HelpMeFind by using my name and the @ symbol. We do not post email addy's, even mine, on this forum to protect users from spam.

Good luck with your roses.


Reply #4 of 11 posted 2 JUN 05 by Unregistered Guest
Dear Lyn,

Thank you for your time and teaching. I've come to the conclusing I done a great job burning the H out of my roses...too much love can snuff the life we men or reminded every so often!!

I have three new ones this season but the other 27 are five to seven years old. Only one miniture. I've read an purchased a lot of books on roses but have not found what I would consider a real detailed instructional book on solving problems or curing sick plants?!?! any ideas?

Jack in Redmond
Reply #5 of 11 posted 2 JUN 05 by Lyn G

Yup, I have lots of ideas ! I have had to rescue roses from neglect and poor care several times. I need real specifics to tell you exactly what to do, but Wendy was very correct in telling you not to feed your roses for a while. Feeder roots are very tiny and can be easily burned. Your very best fertilizer right now is water. New feeder roots are growing as I am writing this post. They are tender and don't need any more food until the grow up a little bit. For plants that are in terrible shape, I might give them a light dose of vitamin B-1, but that's it and only once to get them started.

Note: It's almost impossible to rescue a rose that is a poor plant with a pretty bloom. It's not worth the effort. There are too many great roses out there that deserve your time and love.

One of the most important things to remember is that roses WANT to grow. That's their mission in life.

If the roses are very defoliated, you need to be concerned about sunburn and dehydration. For plants in the worst condition this way, I have used a wet t-shirt trailing into a bucket of water to wrap around the canes. It's important to give the rose some hours of sunlight, but this can save some of the top growth.

Since you know you have root damage, you might want to cut the top growth down a bit, but be careful. Modern roses store their nutrients in their canes and once they are out of dormancy, you are cutting off their food source. Don't give them a drastic hair cut. Just enough so that the roots don't have to supply water and other nutrients to a lot of top growth.

I also don't allow a stressed rose to bloom. It takes away too much energy from the recovering plant. I want all of that energy to go into the production of roots and foliage. I can get blooms later in the season or next year. My goal is to have a healthy plant.

In my intensive care program, I stick with regular ol' Miracle grow at half strength and drench feed one week and foliar feed the next week. In my experience, I have only had to do this for about 4 weeks and the rose starting responding like a very healthy plant.

The rose is your best teacher. Books are good, but learning from the rose can't be topped. Since most of these are older roses, you might even want to replace the soil, but that doesn't seem to be the most important use of your time. Letting the plant get water and sun, grow new roots and protecting it from dehydration will do more for the plant than anything else I can think of at this moment.

I don't worry too much about mildew in my microclimate because it will go away when summer really hits, but if your climate doesn't get above 85 for days at a time, protecting the roses from mildew is important because damaged leaves cannot perform their function of photosythesis as effeciently.

In my old garden, I made an effort to grow mildew-resistant roses because I just liked gardening that way. Your solution of water and dish soap is often recommended as a remedy for mildew, so a lot of people have had success with this method.

Good luck with your roses.


Reply #6 of 11 posted 3 JUN 05 by Unregistered Guest
thank you for your coaching. question what does the attached .jpg tell you?

Jack in Redmond, WA
Reply #7 of 11 posted 3 JUN 05 by Lyn G

I love sharing what I know about roses, but thank you so much for the compliment. In this Q & A Forum, it is necessary to upload your photos for me to be able to see them. There are instructions in the help section.



PS... I am still learning more about roses. I think I'll always be learning something new. For some reason, the roses never want to stop teaching.
Reply #8 of 11 posted 3 JUN 05 by Unregistered Guest
there is a bit learning curve on how to use this system. From the attached .jpg do you have an opinion as to what may be causing it?
Reply #9 of 11 posted 3 JUN 05 by HMF Admin

We do not seem to have the jpg you mentioned. Please try this:

1. Click the EDIT button on your original post and use check the photo upload check box before clicking the CONTINUE button.
2. Use the upload form to upload your photo.
3. Use the CONTACT HMF link at the bottom of the (green) navigation menu so we'll know to check you upload worked properly.
Reply #10 of 11 posted 4 JUN 05 by Unregistered Guest
Whats wrong with this?
Reply #2 of 11 posted 2 JUN 05 by Wendy C.
Jack, It sounds as if you are loving your roses to death.

Please don't feed them for awhile, I think the feeder roots have been burned. I'd wait until after they bloom and then a water soluable 20-20-20, about 1pint per bush.

Potted roses are easy to over water, make sure they dry out a bit between watering. The leaves will turn yellow and drop if they are being over watered.

I understand powdery mildew and black spot can pose a challenge for you. Lived in Bellevue for 5 years. It would seem you are overspraying them as well.

If you are seeing signs of disease, remove the effected foliage then spray with a copper product and rotate with a different fungicide to stave off resistance. Resist the urge to mix products.
There is no substitute for good circulation, so make sure the pots are well spaced. Also try to water them so there is no splash from the soil unto the foliage. The fungi live in the soil and are often transfered to the roses by splash.

Water the roses well the day before spraying. Spray in the morning or evening. And that should take care of the spray burn. Mix according to the package directions.

Roses can survive more neglect than their reputations would have you believe. Relax, and let the roses breathe for a while... they should forgive you.

Good Luck
Reply #3 of 11 posted 2 JUN 05 by Unregistered Guest
Thank you for your feed back! You're hitting it square and confirming what I've done! I loaded my pots all winter with organic waste from the kitchen and then Terosa time release before my roses really got going. I've burned my poor plants real badley...that is forsure!! when I figured out what I had done I watered them a lot trying to off set the over fertilization?!?!

I don't have any black spot but did have a touch of powdery mildew. the best solution I've discovered is 1 stp of baking soda + 1 stp kitchen liq soap per gal of water eliminates the problem immediately!! Much better than any fungicide I've been using in past years...

thank you again...Jack in Redmond

Reply #11 of 11 posted 16 FEB by Frazky
Root Grow - mycorrhizal granules -
west north facing you will get mildew black-spot as morning sun does not burn off dew quick enough
Bordeux mixture spray may help blackspot etc
Dig up roses every winter after pruning-
- soak in warm milton hypochlorite for an hour.
- dry in airing cupboard..
keep in dry cool shed until replant in spring.{ or throw away or burn and start fresh }

Do not put unrotted vegetation in the soil .. encourages fungi bacteria .. ( a touch of bone meal is ok )
Choose suitable variety for the position shade heat moisture soil..
most recent 31 DEC SHOW ALL
Initial post 31 MAY 06 by Claire C

I read that Midnight Blue doesn't perform well grown on its own roots, but I have two own-root specimens that are thriving in my garden, putting out lots of growth, buds and bloom.  They were very small when planted last fall, and I wasn't sure they would even survive my zone 5/6 winter (they were put in the ground in late fall), but they rooted well, taking off like a rocket in the spring--they were practically the first roses to bloom in the entire garden.  So I would recommend them as own root plants... Claire, St Louis, Zone 5/6

Reply #1 of 11 posted 17 JAN 11 by buckeyesouth
Thanks for this info. I was just debating whether to get it own root.
Reply #2 of 11 posted 17 JAN 11 by buckeyesouth
And what has been your experience with this rose since several years ago?
Reply #3 of 11 posted 17 JAN 11 by Lyn G
My experience with a budded 'Midnight Blue' in the mountains of northern California has been such that I am going to give it one more season to show me that it's worth keeping. It has been very slow to take off and the blooms fry in my summer heat.

I changed my feeding routine last year and all of my roses performed much better, so I want to give it another season before I pull out the shovel.

Reply #4 of 11 posted 18 JAN 11 by buckeyesouth
Does this rose make a good cut? Ebb Tide is notorious for wilting quickly, and I understand that Midnight is from the same cross.
Reply #5 of 11 posted 18 JAN 11 by Lyn G
I really don't know. I rarely cut roses to bring into the house. Also, with the high temps in my climate, the blooms from 'Midnight Blue' don't really last that long on the bush. I am hoping that if the plant is healthier with the new feeding program that might change, but, to be honest, I doubt it. I don't think dark colored roses are going to work in this garden unless they have very heavy petal substance.

Reply #6 of 11 posted 15 NOV 14 by Michael Garhart
They both hate the sun. Ebb Tide does better in bright August sun, due to more and thicker petals, but they both suffer from those long summer days of heat.

This is typical of purple-red and blackened-red roses, however.

Of the newer purple roses I have grown, it has been Stormy Weather that has been the heat-tolerant. Sure, it is light on petals, but they are pretty strong petals. Its also the more prickly. It basically is like Westerland w/ purple blooms, lol.
Reply #7 of 11 posted 17 MAY by Lavenderlace
Here in Z8, I have several that have done very well own-root. The color is much darker and the fragrance stronger than Ebb Tide to compare, though the blooms are slightly smaller.
Reply #8 of 11 posted 1 JUL by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Does midnight blue prefer sand over clay? How do you like its scent compared to Lagerfield (very nice scent in clay). Thanks.
Reply #9 of 11 posted 1 JUL by Lavenderlace
Straw, I only had several of these grown in reddish but still sandy soil. I didn't put them in the vase so haven't smelled them as much as Lagerfeld, but would still have to prefer Lagerfeld if I had to choose. Both own-root.
Reply #10 of 11 posted 1 JUL by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Thank you. The purple/blue scent is elusive. Purple Wise Portia's scent is fantastic in cold weather, but lousy-clove in hot weather. Same with Deep Purple ... much better scent in cool weather, but weird-clove in hot weather. But Lagerfeld always smell good, regardless of the weather.
Reply #11 of 11 posted 31 DEC by Michael Garhart
Ebb Tide is more consistently fragrant, but Midnight Blue is easier to grow (ET takes 2 years to become a full-fledged floribunda). I have each about 7 miles apart (different properties), and that is the main difference, except for petal count.
most recent 4 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 JUL 09 by John Moody
This Renaissance rose is described as a HT and as a FL on th "Plant" title page for it. Which variety is it?? Does it prefer to bloom in clusters or singles?
Reply #1 of 3 posted 6 JUL 09 by Lyn G
Interesting question, since both parent roses are classified as floribunda roses. However, all of the REFERENCES list the rose as a HT. None of the REFERENCES describes its blooming habit.

Reply #3 of 3 posted 4 NOV by Michael Garhart
Very similar to Lord Mountbatten or Wild Blue Yonder in plant architecture, bloom size, plant size, and sprays.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 18 JUN 10 by a_carl76
Seems to be better classed as a Hybrid Tea rather than a Floribunda. I get a few clusters but a lot of the blooms are born single. Not real tall for me (mine are grown on their own roots) and might be classed as a Floribunda for that reason and because of the bloom form. The blooms are not as formal as most modern Hybrid Tea. Just my opinion. Very nice rose regardless of how it is classed.
most recent 30 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 7 JAN 12 by Drasaid
Oh come ON! We WAAAANNNT we want it! We Wants It NOW!
dang it is so purple
Reply #1 of 13 posted 7 JAN 12 by Lyn G
Did you click the BUY FROM tab on the rose page ? It is commercially available.

Reply #2 of 13 posted 7 JAN 12 by Drasaid
Alas, not from Rogue Valley Roses. Or at least not from their website. I'll give them an email, perhaps they do not have it up yet.
Reply #3 of 13 posted 8 JAN 12 by Lyn G
That's a good idea. Many nurseries have not updated their inventories for 2012.

Reply #4 of 13 posted 8 JAN 12 by Landperson
And some nurseries' inventories change daily
Reply #5 of 13 posted 8 JAN 12 by Drasaid
Well, I suppose I assumed that nursery employees were not as apt as others (i.e. me) to still be either carousing or recovering from said carousing and failing to update their website. Fatal Mistake!
In New Orleans, from whence I came, carousing will continue for some time, until Ash Wednesday. Christmas runs into New Year and into Epiphany, with Revillon dinners running into King Cake Season to Mardi Gras Ball schedules to Carnival parades, right into the cold hard day that is Ash Wednesday. So websites never get updated till Lent . . . .
so I should not be annoyed at Rogue Valley Roses for not satisfying my Purple Poodle lust posthaste.
damn pretty rose though
Reply #7 of 13 posted 1 FEB 12 by Barden, Paul
This variety is currently in production and will not be available until 2013, sorry!
Reply #6 of 13 posted 1 FEB 12 by Barden, Paul
Nooooo! It is NOT yet available to buy, and won't be until at the earliest, 2013. Please note: "Purple Poodle" was just a study name; that will not be its commercial name once released.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 1 FEB 12 by Drasaid
Thank you for breeding it. I used to own Pink Poodle and loved its dark stamens and unique form, thinking that was not reproducible . . . wrong!
Consider a New Orleans carnival name. That rose is as Mardi Gras as it gets. Thanks again.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 1 FEB 12 by Barden, Paul
Hi Sarah,
A name has already been chosen and submitted to the registrar and has been accepted: it is now known as Carolyn Supinger, named, of course, for Ralph Moore's manager at Sequoia Nursery, and a very dear friend of mine.

Reply #10 of 13 posted 29 DEC 13 by redwolfdoc
Hello! Has this rose become commercially available yet? Such a gorgeous colour!
Reply #11 of 13 posted 29 DEC 13 by Barden, Paul
Contact Rogue Valley Roses to inquire about availability: it may be ready for sale in Spring 2014.

Reply #12 of 13 posted 29 DEC 13 by redwolfdoc
Thank you!
Reply #13 of 13 posted 30 OCT by Barden, Paul
Rogue Valley Roses will NOT be introducing this rose, as it has lost all inventory of it (October 2017). I doubt this rose will ever be commercially introduced, sadly.
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