HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 13 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 NOV 12 by goncmg
Pulling apart the history of AARS, I truly DO want to know what HAPPENED with this one? The breeder was huge, the color was TRENDY.........the form, full and often amazingly good and star shaped was "of the moment"............2 years later, in 1971, COMMAND PERFORMANCE would win AARS and it looks quite a lot like BIENVENU but lacks any sort of fragrance...........COMANCHE, by the same breeder as Bienvenu, won AARS the year Bienvenu got released as well and although a GOOD rose, Comanche has extremely sparse foliage and is a very awkward rose to classify, its bush form, loose and sparse, reminds me of 1937's Contrast...............did Bienvenu get entered into the AARS trials? Did Swim/Weeks overlook it? Because, with that star shaped bloom that quite often has shockingly good form, it really COULD have been a winner of that highest award..............and a side-note, Verna Weeks discussed in an early 70's ARS annual how Weeks named their roses and admitted this odd name was simply pulled from a hat.................
Reply #1 of 6 posted 22 NOV 12 by jedmar
I can imagine two reasons for the disappearance of these roses:
- orange and orange-red was a fashion colour in the early 70s (I had lamps, tableware, seats, etc.) and then was suddenly Mega-out, as they say today.
- the roses of the time were often susceptible to blackspot and mildew
Reply #2 of 6 posted 22 NOV 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Unless Command Performance performed better in the various AARS test gardens. In some climates, Bienvenu may be great, but if the scores were higher across the board for CP, even with the more sparse foliage and awkward plant, it's quite possible for it to outclass Bienvenu. It's also quite possible Command Performance was easier to produce.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 13 days ago by Michael Garhart
Going to take the historical view and guess Impatient, Trumpeter, Prominent, New Year, and Shreveport steamrolled the rest. 3 were closer to true orange, and 2 were short enough be more aesthetic (orange at eye level can be hard to place in many landscapes).
Reply #4 of 6 posted 13 days ago by Rupert, Kim L.
Another possibility we've not considered is how the AARS selections were made. Part of it was how the rose scored across the test gardens, but another part, not advertised, was whose "turn" it was to win. Yes, some won seemingly more than their "fair share" but there were rumblings throughout the eighties and early nineties that some higher scoring roses were overlooked due to it being someone else's turn to win. Remember, those who selected the winners were also those who submitted roses for trial.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 13 days ago by Michael Garhart
AARS was my favorite marketing gimmick :P That's essentially what it was. There were a few good AARS winners though, but that's like saying you still get a dollar back every few lottery tickets lol.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 13 days ago by Rupert, Kim L.
Bingo! :}
most recent 14 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 17 AUG 12 by Barden, Paul
Undoubtedly the WORST rose I have ever grown. If you ever wondered where the disease-ridden foliage of modern roses came from, plant yourself one of these! A truly wretched beast of a thing.
Reply #1 of 23 posted 18 AUG 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Don't hold back Paul, tell us how you REALLY feel about it! I agree, occasionally gorgeous flower on a truly terrible plant.
Reply #2 of 23 posted 18 AUG 12 by HMF Admin
So... reading between the lines we're guessing you don't care for this particular rose?
Reply #3 of 23 posted 18 AUG 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
It served its purpose to bring the Foetida colors into modern roses, as well as short-lived foliage which becomes susceptible to fungal attacks more quickly. It is historically and genetically important as a museum piece. It can be extraordinary in the narrow band of climates in which it can be happy. Unfortunately, it is a very narrow, small number of the areas in which roses are grown. As a plant, no, I don't care for anything about it. It has some very interesting traits, such as the "Juicy Fruit Gum" scent of the sepals, peduncles and new growth and (sometimes) very beautifully colored flowers. Unfortunately, you have to take the whole package to get the fun parts and that's a pretty high price of admission.
Reply #4 of 23 posted 24 MAY 13 by goncmg
I have to re-post here and smile because right now my Soleil d'Or is covered in blooms (with that delicious juicy fruit gum smell) and my band, now a 2 x 2 taught shrublet, is beyond vigorous. Yes, I admit, per my prior post I DO give it its "medicine" almost daily but for me it is worth it. There is nothing like it. And it is beyond important in the history.............I keep waiting for this one to totally FAIL me, and maybe it still will. Maybe my clone is just very, unusually-ish strong. It isn't even close to the worst rose I have ever grown but that is what makes growing them such a fun challenge. And I am convinced that there may actually be some human-rose synergy in existence and with some I/we have it, others I/we don't. I cannot grow Tropicana no matter WHAT I do. I have never had a bad experience with Sterling Silver. A cool, dry spring STILL has my Daily Sketch almost defoliated with botrytis and blackspot even though nobody else of the 100+ has much if any of either and I spray DS nearly as much as this one here.....................a fascinating relic, works for me, seems like it doesn't for a lot, I love it and would never want to be without it at this point....................I DO feed it about 50% more than the others. It also lets me NOT water it about 50% as much as the others (all mine are in pots, I gambled and realized its heritage is DRY and yes, this seems to work).....and again, I spray it beyond belief but last year it barely lost a leaf to blackspot and shoots out basals at an amazing rate....................think Soleil and I have that "synergy" that Tropicana and others (Redgold, Cathedral, Black Baccara, Daily Sketch, Countess Vandal, APRIL IN PARIS (!) and more) I do not have................................
Reply #5 of 23 posted 24 MAY 13 by Rupert, Kim L.'s just lulling you into believing it isn't going to bite you! Once you're satisfied it is going to do its thing without issues, it will probably explode into fungal issues just before committing suicide!
Reply #6 of 23 posted 25 MAY 13 by goncmg
I refuse to believe it!!! LOL....but I didn't listen on Grey Pearl last year and my two bands bloomed themselves to death as you warned. Did really well until about August then one of the 2 just died. Then the other one went from looking good to looking upset and simply died over the winter in the imnsulated., never below 25 and often above 32 garage. !!!!!
Reply #7 of 23 posted 25 MAY 13 by Greenman
My Soleil d'Or is now almost three years old. I just posted some photos of its spring blossoms. It is true it has the worst blackspot of any other roses I have, but so far has sent out fresh growth periodically to make up for what is lost to blackspot. And to be honest, its only slightly worse than some of the mid-century roses like Circus or even some more modern ones like Overnight Scentsation. Right now, it is loosing most of its leaves and the more recent blossoms have been stunted, but it also has 3 basal breaks and several fresh growths from upper branches. Not that I would actually encourage anyone to grow it, mind. I fertilize it like heck and also occasionally give it a sulpher shower. Even then, it is usually covered in blackspot and has infrequent blooms other than the first flush.
Reply #8 of 23 posted 29 MAY 13 by Benaminh
Hmmm, go figure... there's a gigantic thicket of Soleil d'Or at the U.C. Berkeley Botanical Garden always covered in blooms. Guess it likes Strawberry Canyon's micro-climate.
Reply #9 of 23 posted 29 MAY 13 by Rupert, Kim L.
That's likely why it's as good as it is. Every rose is good somewhere. It appears this one has found its spot. IF you can see it perfect, it is spectacular. Unfortunately, it most often isn't. But, you can see why it was so exciting to Pernet when it flowered, can't you?
Reply #10 of 23 posted 30 MAY 13 by goncmg
Kim, exactly! Every rose is good SOMEWHERE and somehow, right? Be it just a strong clone or the right micro-climate or the handling by the grower that, for whatever reasons, "speaks" to the rose. This is why I guess so many of us are addicted to them! They are not "guaranteed" success stories but there are some GREAT success stories to talk about!
Reply #11 of 23 posted 11 FEB 15 by Salix
Very, very, very, very, very wierdly- this is one of the best spring performers in the practically uncared for Snug Harbor rose garden. Either mislabeled or somehow it tolerates a little salt, cold, humidity and rain much better than anywhere else. Stunning.
Reply #12 of 23 posted 11 FEB 15 by Rupert, Kim L.
The conditions are just right for it to be happy. Let the climate warm up sufficiently and see how it responds...
Reply #13 of 23 posted 11 FEB 15 by Salix
Heehee :P Or let the smog drift over once they finally extend the main road... Meanwhile I'll enjoy it
Reply #14 of 23 posted 12 FEB 15 by goncmg
Meanwhile a few years after my RAVE.....I still have my Soleil d'Or on its own roots. It is a lovely, small shrub in its pot. HOWEVER, lol, last summer it managed to RAIN in Columbus every single day. Usually Soleil had his "medicine" and yes, I would squirt him almost every day. But I lost the battle this year. And WHOA so did Soleil d'Or!!!! Wanna see a plant DENUDE from blackspot in a matter of HOURS? GOOD GRIEF! And once it did, there was no turning back. I won't toss it, it had 3 good summers with me albeit with DAILY "MEDICINE" but last year was a nightmare. It denuded around July 1 and tried to refoliate but then THOSE were knocked out. It sits, in my garage, awaiting spring. It is nude. It looks as it has looked since last July 1.
Reply #15 of 23 posted 12 FEB 15 by Salix
But those flowers and the scented growth make it almost worth it....

Now you can understand why this rose was released- the form and color of the rose is spectacular. It really was revolutionary, although it's a shame it's so so sick. I'll try to get a picture this May. It does not repeat.
Reply #16 of 23 posted 12 FEB 15 by goncmg
Oh yes, the scent is so unique! It smells like Juicy Fruit gum to me! There is nothing like Soleil. Quite a character. I have no plans to get rid of it. Just lots more "medicine." The first flush of blooms is insane! And it repeats very well, which surprised me.
Reply #17 of 23 posted 12 FEB 15 by Salix
The repeat is climate dependent, then! I have seen the foetida throw a bloom if it gets dry enough during the summer, so it goes under another dormancy. The thing got huge there, like a sprawling tree, with lots of foliage, and even more underneath it! The scent is a little more herbal-y I guess than gum, almost like it had a little Amol ( in it. God, I hate Amol... But this smells WAAAY better ;p
Reply #18 of 23 posted 13 FEB 15 by Salix
I wonder how Lady Penzance smell like?
Reply #20 of 23 posted 25 OCT 15 by Salix
I saw a bloom hidden under the rootstock's canes in Snug Harbor. Darn, such color! If it were not for the BS, it would be a great rose...
Reply #22 of 23 posted 30 JUL by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Is this rose shade-tolerant, like 4 hours of evening sun, or does it need full-sun? Thanks.
Reply #19 of 23 posted 5 JUN 15 by Salix
Actually, it turns out they let ti grow big (wrist-wide canes), which they lob back enough to prevent all but the occasional bloom, forcing it to push out good growth :/ Also, the spot is good- sunny and dry
Reply #21 of 23 posted 5 JUN by princesskatja
Definitely a dry climate rose. Here in Spokane, WA (if you are not familiar with Washington, the eastern side of the state is actually high desert, not "evergreen") it is happy and extremely healthy with zero treatment. But blackspot and mildew are virtually unknown here.

It shrugged off a terrible winter this year (2017) that killed off anything grafted and knocked nearly everything back to the ground. Not Soleil d'Or. It's bushy, and loaded with fat buds. And it was planted as a band only a couple of years ago.

So if you have hot, dry summers - it might still be worth growing!
Reply #23 of 23 posted 14 NOV by slumgullion
I agree, Soleil is doing well here (this year at least) in the dry part of southern Oregon. Has been blooming all year (right up till now in November) and has kept all its leaves. This is only my second year with it (and last year it defoliated completely) so I'll see how it goes, but so far so good! (knock on wood)
most recent 9 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 MAY 13 by goncmg
This is a "breaks my heart" situation for most likely it is extinct. A deep red/yellow bicolor is not very common and in a climber extremely rare, this one was IT. I also had this one, from Edmunds, and I loved it. Lost it/left it behind in a move and always thought it was unique enough to stay around but evidentally this was not to be. Looking through my old ARS annuals and the POP's, Vintage Wine was actually "better" reviewed. It wasn't a FLOP. Just seemed to catch nobody's favor. Although somewhat smaller and LESS formal in shape, DARK NIGHT is close to this one..............with roses it truly is staggering how quickly the future can slip into the past and how some totally non-descript varieties remain even if in the specialty nurseries while something like Vintage Wine may very well be lost...................
Reply #1 of 4 posted 16 MAY 13 by Nastarana
I was surprised to learn, from a most reputable source, that at the big rose companies, such as J & P, the rose breeders, such as Messires Carruth and Zary, had no control over which of the many plants they bred would be introduced, nor over naming. We mustn't blame breeders for "Sentimental" (get it, hah hah) or "Ch-ching" ( I wonder who dreamed that one up?). No doubt, someone in a corp office decided to promote, eg, Joseph's Coat instead of other brilliantly colored climbers. Such is life these days.

Maybe if you put word out that you would like to trade for a cutting you might find that someone still has it?
Reply #2 of 4 posted 16 MAY 13 by goncmg
Laughing here, Nastarana, because I HATE the name "Ch-Ching" and many others such as "Girls Night Out" and anything along the lines of "Way to Go!" or "What a Winner!" (think I made those up but you get what I mean)....yeah, it IS all BIG BUSINESS, just like the fashion world, with trends coming and going and certain houses pulling more weight...frustrating though it is, I am truly fascinated by this angle of the rose world............
Reply #3 of 4 posted 16 MAY 13 by Nastarana
The naming is annoying enough but what truly irritated me was the incomprehensible way the major rose companies would decide which roses to sell and which to discontinue. You have heard about Rose Rhapsody, which one of the big guys dropped for no apparent reason and which Heirloom was able to pick up? From all accounts it is a fine and fragrant HT, though possibly not hardy where I am. By the time you might decide to buy a rose you had been admiring in your neighbor's yard, and remember it takes at least three years for a rose to reveal itself in all its' glory, it would likely be no longer available.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 9 NOV by cinsia
I have a plant of Vintage Wine that was given to me last year by a local rose garden. It has yet to bloom in the large pot I planted it in. As soon as it does I plan on posting a photo to verify it is what I was told. Once it gets large enough I plan on propagating it from cuttings.
most recent 6 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 JAN 12 by goncmg
Have grown this rose in central valley California and now 6a, Columbus. Every year I fall a little more out of love with it. It is quite unique, the petals are uniquely ruffled, the foliage is olive green and also basically ruffled, it is a bicolor/multicolor with a heavy scent. 48 years ago this was a hallmark. I had to create a "sick zone" this year in my yard (all in huge terracotta pots, sleep in the garage) mostly because of Granada and the fact it and it alone got disfiguring mildew, AGAIN, which I could not clear regardless of what I tried. Another one that back in the 70's was re-classified for years as a GR due to the fact it generally blooms in clusters if not pannicles. I'm just losing enthusiasm for this one and feel it over-rated and resting on its reputation that was gained years ago and before better bi-multi colors with scent appeared. If you have heard of it and wanted to try it likely it is worth the gamble if no more than so you can just say you tried what is basically a "legend." If Secret or Double Delight (its child) strike your fancy, by all means, walk on by..........its rating has fallen notably in the past decade or so, and although still in the "very good" range, I expect it to keep falling...........
Reply #1 of 4 posted 29 APR 14 by Matt's North Texas Rose Garden
Agree about Double Delight, terrible... but Secret is quite nice and is AMAZING out at my Aunts place in the west Texas high plains.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 29 APR 14 by goncmg
Oh gosh, I think Secret is GREAT! I was suggesting Secret and even DD as an alternative to Granada which I find to be more and more problematic and when my ol' plant ages out, I will not replace it.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 6 OCT by BenT_TX
In my opinion, while Secret and Double Delight are excellent and worthwhile varieties, they are very dissimilar to Granada, and not a suitable replacement. Granada is still quite a unique jewel-toned color combination, at different times you will find red, pink, orange, apricot , copper and yellow...a wonderful kaleidoscope of a bush. It produces a prodigious number of especially elegant buds on long straight single stems, beautiful for both garden display and Cut flowers. It has a very nice old rose fragrance. I understand it has propensity to mildew, but if you live in an area where that’s not a problem, or keep up the spray program, this is still a most uniquely fabulous and indispensable rose.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 6 OCT by Nastarana
I love 'Granada' also, for the changing colors and for the fragrance, but I think it needs a warm and fairly dry climate. I think of it as a late 20thC Pernetiana, in behavior if not in lineage.
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