HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 9 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 MAY 13 by goncmg
This is a "breaks my heart" situation for most likely it is extinct. A deep red/yellow bicolor is not very common and in a climber extremely rare, this one was IT. I also had this one, from Edmunds, and I loved it. Lost it/left it behind in a move and always thought it was unique enough to stay around but evidentally this was not to be. Looking through my old ARS annuals and the POP's, Vintage Wine was actually "better" reviewed. It wasn't a FLOP. Just seemed to catch nobody's favor. Although somewhat smaller and LESS formal in shape, DARK NIGHT is close to this one..............with roses it truly is staggering how quickly the future can slip into the past and how some totally non-descript varieties remain even if in the specialty nurseries while something like Vintage Wine may very well be lost...................
Reply #1 of 4 posted 16 MAY 13 by Nastarana
I was surprised to learn, from a most reputable source, that at the big rose companies, such as J & P, the rose breeders, such as Messires Carruth and Zary, had no control over which of the many plants they bred would be introduced, nor over naming. We mustn't blame breeders for "Sentimental" (get it, hah hah) or "Ch-ching" ( I wonder who dreamed that one up?). No doubt, someone in a corp office decided to promote, eg, Joseph's Coat instead of other brilliantly colored climbers. Such is life these days.

Maybe if you put word out that you would like to trade for a cutting you might find that someone still has it?
Reply #2 of 4 posted 16 MAY 13 by goncmg
Laughing here, Nastarana, because I HATE the name "Ch-Ching" and many others such as "Girls Night Out" and anything along the lines of "Way to Go!" or "What a Winner!" (think I made those up but you get what I mean)....yeah, it IS all BIG BUSINESS, just like the fashion world, with trends coming and going and certain houses pulling more weight...frustrating though it is, I am truly fascinated by this angle of the rose world............
Reply #3 of 4 posted 16 MAY 13 by Nastarana
The naming is annoying enough but what truly irritated me was the incomprehensible way the major rose companies would decide which roses to sell and which to discontinue. You have heard about Rose Rhapsody, which one of the big guys dropped for no apparent reason and which Heirloom was able to pick up? From all accounts it is a fine and fragrant HT, though possibly not hardy where I am. By the time you might decide to buy a rose you had been admiring in your neighbor's yard, and remember it takes at least three years for a rose to reveal itself in all its' glory, it would likely be no longer available.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 9 NOV by cinsia
I have a plant of Vintage Wine that was given to me last year by a local rose garden. It has yet to bloom in the large pot I planted it in. As soon as it does I plan on posting a photo to verify it is what I was told. Once it gets large enough I plan on propagating it from cuttings.
most recent 6 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 JAN 12 by goncmg
Have grown this rose in central valley California and now 6a, Columbus. Every year I fall a little more out of love with it. It is quite unique, the petals are uniquely ruffled, the foliage is olive green and also basically ruffled, it is a bicolor/multicolor with a heavy scent. 48 years ago this was a hallmark. I had to create a "sick zone" this year in my yard (all in huge terracotta pots, sleep in the garage) mostly because of Granada and the fact it and it alone got disfiguring mildew, AGAIN, which I could not clear regardless of what I tried. Another one that back in the 70's was re-classified for years as a GR due to the fact it generally blooms in clusters if not pannicles. I'm just losing enthusiasm for this one and feel it over-rated and resting on its reputation that was gained years ago and before better bi-multi colors with scent appeared. If you have heard of it and wanted to try it likely it is worth the gamble if no more than so you can just say you tried what is basically a "legend." If Secret or Double Delight (its child) strike your fancy, by all means, walk on by..........its rating has fallen notably in the past decade or so, and although still in the "very good" range, I expect it to keep falling...........
Reply #1 of 4 posted 29 APR 14 by Matt's North Texas Rose Garden
Agree about Double Delight, terrible... but Secret is quite nice and is AMAZING out at my Aunts place in the west Texas high plains.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 29 APR 14 by goncmg
Oh gosh, I think Secret is GREAT! I was suggesting Secret and even DD as an alternative to Granada which I find to be more and more problematic and when my ol' plant ages out, I will not replace it.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 6 OCT by BenT_TX
In my opinion, while Secret and Double Delight are excellent and worthwhile varieties, they are very dissimilar to Granada, and not a suitable replacement. Granada is still quite a unique jewel-toned color combination, at different times you will find red, pink, orange, apricot , copper and yellow...a wonderful kaleidoscope of a bush. It produces a prodigious number of especially elegant buds on long straight single stems, beautiful for both garden display and Cut flowers. It has a very nice old rose fragrance. I understand it has propensity to mildew, but if you live in an area where that’s not a problem, or keep up the spray program, this is still a most uniquely fabulous and indispensable rose.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 6 OCT by Nastarana
I love 'Granada' also, for the changing colors and for the fragrance, but I think it needs a warm and fairly dry climate. I think of it as a late 20thC Pernetiana, in behavior if not in lineage.
most recent 20 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 JAN 12 by goncmg
Ripe, hot mouth watering nectarines. That is what this one smells like to me, as I grew and grow it in Chico, California and Columbus, Ohio. Other than scent it is a possibly memorable but not particularly outstanding. It grows big and has weaker stems and canes. The blooms do not last very long. It is probably above-average in disease as measured against its peers but falls short by the modern eye. Funny that the HIPS are mentioned in the comments. My plant always sets a few, I let it, because I am always curious to see what it will produce as a self-set: will it go back to Signora and be bright? Or Charlotte Armstrong and be simply PINK? For 3 years I have had so many seeds and never once one has germinated...........not sure if this is me, my practices, or does this rose not GIVE viable seeds? Once a staple of all nurseries this one is now getting harder to come by. If you love FRAGRANCE then this one is a MUST HAVE. Rather thin stemmed and caned and a little messy, it would work well in a border or mixed bed.............the Columbus Park of Roses has two beds of this: one in full sun and one in almost full shade and both look the same.................
Reply #1 of 26 posted 13 OCT 12 by mtspace
Thanks. I love fragrance.
Reply #2 of 26 posted 14 OCT 12 by goncmg
You need this one.
Reply #3 of 26 posted 14 OCT 12 by goncmg
Oh! Fragrance meets light pink and a healthier plant from the 60's??? Forget Royal Highness.........find Sweet Afton, 1964..............paler, where white meets pink, a plant much like Sutter's Gold as in rangy and messy and big.....the buds are long and elegant and the scent is heavenly..........
Reply #4 of 26 posted 14 OCT 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
That, it is! David Armstrong created some rose with real "soul". Lemon Spice, Touch of Venus and Sweet Afton being my favorites of the group.
Reply #5 of 26 posted 1 JAN 14 by Dianne's Southwest Idaho Rose Garden
Touch of Venus is new to me, but I'll definitely compare its fragrance to Sweet Afton, Sutter's Gold, and Lemon Spice in the 2014 season. Thanks, Kim and Chris!
Reply #7 of 26 posted 18 MAY by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome, Dianne. Three newer ones (at least to me) which are wonderfully scented and rudely healthy here are Chandos Beauty, Grimaldi and my newest flame, Irish Hope. What foliage!
Reply #16 of 26 posted 19 MAY by Lavenderlace
Chando's Beauty looks interesting. I wonder where to find it?
Reply #8 of 26 posted 18 MAY by Lavenderlace
Can anybody comment on which rose has a fragrance closest to Lemon Spice? I adore her but would love her even better in pink or lavender. The sport of Lemon Spice, Sunday Lemonade, is pink and smells wonderful according to all reports but died on everybody so would love something a bit hardier than that!
Reply #9 of 26 posted 18 MAY by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Lavenderlace: I'm considering getting Gruss an Coberg, known for its strong scent. It's pinkish & apricot. It's hardy on a few zone 5b, but I'm in zone 5a, so I would have to check on what type of soil is best for that one. Everyone raves about its scent, like can "smell one foot away". For a great article on different scents, see below link. An excerpt from the below link: "‘Inhale ‘Celsiana’, ‘Marie Louise’ or ‘Trigintapetala’ (Kazanlik), the latter rose for centuries used to make rose oil, exuding a damask scent. ‘Louise Odier’”Mme Isaac Periere’ and ‘Zepherine Droughin’ waft the aroma of raspberries. Queen of Denmark’ suggests doses of damask and lemon, ‘Mrs John Laing’ damask and parsley, ‘Mme Hardy’ damask and marigold; ‘Blush Noisette’ cloves, ‘Marechal Neil’ strawberries, ‘Perle d’Or’ nasturtiums."

Personally Perle d'Or smells way-better than nasturtiums !!
Reply #10 of 26 posted 18 MAY by Lavenderlace
Thank you!
Reply #11 of 26 posted 19 MAY by Rupert, Kim L.
Lavenderlace, by "closest", are you referring to the specific scent combination, or something with as intense a scent? I can rattle off many heavily scented HTs, but not ones that smell exactly like Lemon Spice.
Reply #12 of 26 posted 19 MAY by Lavenderlace
I actually mean the most similar. I think that I have bought all of the roses on the most fragrant lists, even in colors that I don't prefer, just to sample them. At the time, I couldn't imagine a scent that I wouldn't like, but now I've found a lot!

I've bought all of Lemon Spice's relatives that I could think of like Tiffany and Chrysler Imperial and then their relatives. I haven't bought Sutter's Gold though. Thanks for the response!
Reply #13 of 26 posted 19 MAY by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Lavenderlace: I'm picky about the scents like you are. I didn't buy 2-gallon Kordes Cream Veranda for $5 (lots of blooms) just because the scent was weird fruity. So glad that Francis Blaise died through the winter, the scent was odd apple/myrrh. I'm giving away Prairie Harvest (over a dozen buds) since the scent is mothball. Chrysler Imperial scent is so-so both in a pot, and at local rose park.

Sutter's Gold is from a class of rose Pernetiana which thrive in hot & dry climate & prefer alkaline soil. Bronze Star is similar but I wasn't impressed with Bronze star's scent, and that's a waterhog. I'm very impressed with Versigny scent (like an apricot pie), also with Pat Austin .. but these are also waterhogs & need shade & clay & tons of water.
Reply #14 of 26 posted 19 MAY by Lavenderlace
Straw, I don't know what it's grafted on, but my Chrysler Imperial is bursting out of the pot and is covered in vivid blooms. Very nice scent, though not as strong as own-root LS. Maybe that one likes heat too?

LS is definitely not a water hog. I'm in a drought prone area with high heat so the grass is yellow or brown many months of the year. So a yellow rose is just more yellow to go with the sunburned landscaping. Kind of a tired look!
Reply #15 of 26 posted 19 MAY by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Lavenderlace: You are right about Chrysler Imperial smells better in high heat. A CA guy wrote about that, and Chrysler Imperial smells "light grassy" in cold weather here. I did an advanced search in HMF for Pernetiana roses (thrive in hot & dry & alkaline soil) ... and found these sold as own-roots at Burlington roses in CA: Soleil d' Or, Condesa de Sastago (KBW grows in his hot Pakistan), Cuba, Amelia Earhart, Betty Uprichard, Talisma, Girona, Gruss an Coberg, and Shot silk. These Pernetiana roses do well in hot & dry & alkaline area .. they are very fragrant, plus LOW-THORN.

Cliff posted a fantastic pic. of Cuba at 100 F heat. Cuba is listed in HMF as almost thornless. Burling informed me that Sutter's Gold and Talisma are low-thorn in her California nursery. I hope that breeders will cross these "blowsy" Pernetiana roses with the "steel" but zero-scent Pink Traviata .. that Meilland rose is a beast in zone 5a, so vigorous and the petals are like firm-plastic & last forever on the bush.
Reply #17 of 26 posted 19 MAY by Lavenderlace
Thanks, will check them out!
Reply #18 of 26 posted 10 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
I checked all those Pernetiana roses to see if Sutter's Gold and Gruss an Coberg are suitable for my zone 5a. Yes, they are the most hardy & vigorous among the Pernetiana roses. But the roses with zero HMF comments, like Girona, I checked Houzz forum and Californians reported Girona as wimpy & died as OWN-ROOT. Lesson learned, if a rose has zero comments, most likely it's wimpy. But if a rose has tons of comments, like Sutter's Gold, Sheila's Perfume, or The Dark Lady ... they are more vigorous as own-roots. If people are NOT happy about the growth, they won't comment in HMF. So the more comments a rose has, more chance of vigor.
Reply #19 of 26 posted 10 JUN by Lavenderlace
Straw, did you happen to find out if Sutter's Gold prefers clay or sandy soil? Or doesn't care? Thanks!
Reply #20 of 26 posted 11 JUN by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Lavenderlace: The best indication of Sutter's Gold does great in amended sandy soil is Goncmg's valuable input: "the Columbus Park of Roses has two beds of this: one in full sun and one in almost full shade and both look the same." Columbus Park in Ohio has sandy soil, and they amended with peatmoss & plus lime to adjust the pH, plus chemical fertilizer.

Jude the Obscure has Windrush as the parent (blowsy single-petal), part of Windrush parentage is hidden. But I bet if someone trace that lineage way back, there's Pernetiana genetics, which gives Jude fabulous fruity scent. Jude blooms best in dry heat, and Jude tends to blackspot in wet & acidic clay. Since Jude does well for your alkaline sandy soil & hot summer, Sutter's Gold as a Pernetiana with its blowsy petals & same tendency to shatter will be OK. Pernetiana likes it hot & dry & alkaline, very much like Jude.

I went outside today and touched the leaves of Lagerfeld between my finger, it's quite thin, compared to Betty White's twice-thicker leaves. Went through all the pics. of Sutter's Gold, and the leaves look thin. Will post pictures of Betty White's leaves so you'll see.

Thin leaves means there's LESS demand for calcium & potassium, and Lagerfeld does better in sand than clay, as you informed. But thick & glossy & dark-green leaves like Betty White has a higher demand for calcium & potassium, more minerals as in clay or loamy is best.

Sutter's Gold with FEWER petals that shatter easily, same with Jude the Obscure are best in partial shade and can handle sandy soil. The zillion-petals one are the ones that need calcium & potassium (more minerals in dense soil). With less petals, less nutrients is needed, so it will be OK in sandy soil like your Jude and Lagerfeld.

If a rose has that "heavy" look to it, like Betty White with many thick petals that last long in the vase, plus very thick large leaves, then it prefers heavy clay (rich in minerals). If a rose has that "light" look to it, blowsy & fewer petals & thinner leaves, then it prefer "light" soil: sandy or fluffy loamy.
Reply #22 of 26 posted 11 JUN by Lavenderlace
This is incredibly helpful, THANK YOU Straw!
Reply #23 of 26 posted 20 JUL by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Got my 1st bloom of Sutter's Gold at 77% humidity. Smells like ripe nectarine, plus a floral note. Here's my ranking of OWN-ROOT orange roses in scent, from best to least that I have grown 1) Versigny - like an apricot pie, pure heaven to sniff 2) Sutter's Gold, probably better nectarine-scent if it's in alkaline clay, MG-potting soil gives it a distracting "floral" note. 3) Bronze Star, same scent as Sutter's Gold, but bigger & deeper orange bloom 4) Pat Austin, scent improved drastically in my alkaline clay, mango and nectarine (YUM) 5) Crown Princess Magareta, honey and fruit, attracts Japanese Beetles more than other roses 6) Lady of Shalott, JB don't care for its black tea and fruity jam scent & not eaten by bugs 7) King Arthur (Samaritan), sweet & fruity, but a bit of harsh camphor. 8) Carding Mill, orange in my alkaline clay, with a sweet myrrh scent, nice in cold weather, but blah in hot weather. 9) Strike it Rich (mild fruity plus earthy smell to it, not pleasant).
Reply #24 of 26 posted 20 JUL by Lavenderlace
Thanks so much Straw, that's wonderful information! I wonder if it's your clay that makes Versigny smell so good? I shied away from her because of the description of "moderate" fragrance on her HMF homepage.

Do Sutter's Gold's blooms blow as fast for you as others have described?
Reply #25 of 26 posted 20 JUL by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Pat Henry of Roses Unlimited nursery recommended Versigny for its scent, that's why I bought Versigny in 2012 ... hopefully HMF would change Versigny's scent to strong, since that definitely beats Sutter's Gold. Versigny is anong few scents that I would call "pure heaven", along with Jude the Obscure, Dee-lish, Duchess de Rohan and Comte de Chambord.

Sutter's Gold lasts only 2 days in the vase.
Reply #26 of 26 posted 20 JUL by Lavenderlace
Thank you!
Reply #6 of 26 posted 18 MAY by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Goncmg: I love the info. you give. Thank you !! So glad to find that Sutter's Gold can take partial shade.
Reply #21 of 26 posted 11 JUN by Dianne's Southwest Idaho Rose Garden
My plant is in the shadow of some 30-foot-tall arborvitae trees that shade it from mid-day on, and it does wonderfully.
most recent 14 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 20 APR 14 by goncmg
In 1968 NEWS debuted, beet-root purple was NEW, unusual..........50 years later it still is. 14 years later/32 years ago beet root purple hit AARS with this one...............the plant IS strong, the blooms are big, much bigger than News, more formal, the color deeper, the petals crisper (a trait White Masterpiece seems to pass on)............but yes, must concur with a prior post: BLACKSPOT! This color just falls prey. But if beet root purple rings your bell, this one is still worth a shot as it will blackspot endlessly, you may have a naked bush much of the growing season if you live east of the Mississippi, but the blackspot somehow here is never fatal...........Intrigue just keeps on keeping on...........another varfiety where there just really isn't anything like it and I've always debated if it won AARS because it deserved it or because Warriner was on a "streak" and Paradise had been such a mauve/mauve-blend success a few years prior..............or maybe a meld of both?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 19 APR 16 by Michael Garhart
lol I was so excited when I ordered this rose. Then Purple Heart came out, and Intrique went straight the compost. And I was very glad about that! Now I have Ebb Tide, which has its faults (turns neon violet in high heat, and an awkward grower), but it works just fine. Purple Heart was a super easy grower. But I left it due to a move.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 14 JUL by StrawChicago Alkaline clay 5a
Nearby rose park has a huge bed of many Intrigues, glorious in hot & dry early Sept., but blackspot-fest in rainy spring .. so they got rid of the entire bed. Intrigue (grafted-on-Dr.Huey) needs high-pH tap-water to stay healthy, and CANNOT handle acidic rain. Saw Intrigue with 4 buds, and 100% healthy in a dinky pot at Walmart in hot & dry August, watered with our town pH 9 tap-water. The color is very purple with high-potassium fertilizer & scent is spicy-good.
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