HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Robert Neil Rippetoe
most recent 10 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Fun one Kim.
most recent 11 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 11 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Reminds me of 'William Allen Richardson'.
most recent 3 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 JUL by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I'm fairly certain the pollen parent here should be 'Stormy Weather' by Orard.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 3 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thank you Robert. Changed from the mini to the climber.
most recent 29 JUN SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 JUN by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Why do so many listings present as, "thornless (or almost)", when very clearly they are not?

Is this part of the default system at HMF?

If so it really needs to be corrected.

Thanks, Robert
Reply #1 of 12 posted 23 JUN by Patricia Routley
HelpMeFind has just two choices:
1. armed with thorns / prickles
2. thornless (or almost)
(for which I am a little pleased actually, as I have rose bushes here which on occasions can have four prickly canes, and one utterly smooth cane.)

The source link (David Austin website) says of 'Carolyn Knight': apart from colour, all other characteristics are the same as 'Summer Song' from which it sported.

The U.S. patent for 'Summer Song' says:
Prickles: Quantity.--On main canes from base: Ordinary, 4 per 10 cm stem length. On laterals from main canes: Ordinary, 5 per 10 cm per stem length. Form.--Concave curved inward. Length.--9 mm. Color when young.--Greyed-Purple Group 185A with Yellow-Green Group 146D at tip. Color when mature.--Greyed-Orange Group 164A at base, Greyed-Purple Group 184B at tip and along upper edge. Small prickles: Quantity.--On main stalks: None. On laterals: None.

If you can work out from that what we should list, we would be delighted to correct things.
You might like to see some homework I did to teach me about prickles years ago:

PRICKLES (prickles, bristles and glands)
Thorns spring from the wood. Stiff and immovable. A Bougainvillea has thorns
Prickles grow from the bark and can be easily rubbed off. Roses have prickles. Stiff and immovable.
Bristles can be moved as the hairs in a brush

Prickle Colour Immature _______ Mature _______ Old ________
____________ red, brown, grey, white, black

Prickle Duration
Caducous when they fall with or after the leaves and don’t stay on the wood long than 2 years.
Persistent when they become entirely woody, very hard and stay several years on the old wood.

Prickles - Where and number
Thornless; Almost thornless; Few thorns; Prickly;
Sparse (placed without order here and there); Grouped (several close together at certain places, while lacking in other place); Close-set; Dispersed; Scattered; Bristles (gallica); Intermingled with bristles (centifolia); Single; In pairs; Geminate (placed in pairs); Often paired; Infrastipular or stipulary (just below the base of a leaf or stipule)

Prickle - Shape
Simple; Compound (as in R. simplicifolia (Hulthemia persica); Alike - (all straight or all hooked);
Dissimilar (some straight, others hooked); Sharp spines; Thin sharp; Needle-shaped; Curved; Large curved (tea, bourbon); Slightly curved; In an Arc; Hooked; Very hooked; Falcate (hooked like a sickle); Straight; Nearly straight (alba) ; Flattened; Thin; Slender; Thick; Wide; Broad at base; Narrow at base; Width variable; Dilated at the base; Base enlarged; Base thick; Base compressed; Base decurrent (prolonged stemwards); Winged thorns; Wing-shaped; Thorny; Strong; Fierce; Weak (easily pushed off - gallica); Short; Long; Equal; Unequal;
Prickle - Size____________

Colour ______________;
Bristles can be moved as the hairs in a brush. Bristles; Rare; Sparse; Grouped; Numerous; Innumerable; Close-set; Stiff; Soft; Equal; Unequal; glandulose (topped by a gland; Stiff glandular hairs; Aciculi (needles); Setiform - thorns degenerated into bristles.

Colour ______; Sessile (no stalk); Pedicellate (stalk) ; Spherical; Oval; Disformed (irregular form);
Fragrant; Scentless; viscous.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 23 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
I just looked at 'Summer Song' and the older growths have a few prickles scattered amongst them. However, there is a new shoot about 1M long and that is liberally armed with longish rather flat hooked prickles all along its length. From the photograph you can see the difference between the raspberry-purple coloured and greyish colour of the new and old prickles.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 23 JUN by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Options given for entry at HMF are inadequate.

As any rose grower will tell you, very few are "thornless or almost".

The flaw in the system makes it impossible to discern those which truly are.

It's too bad this wasn't caught years ago because correcting all the entries is going to be an onerous chore.

In the future there will be many which are truly smooth. Breeders are making this possible.

"Thornless" is a poor choice of words in the first place as taxonomists tell us roses have prickles not thorns.

The software needs an update.

Thanks, Robert
Reply #4 of 12 posted 23 JUN by Patricia Routley
I have changed 'Carolyn Knight' to "armed with thorns / prickles".
Yes, it is too bad, and it will be an onerous chore. Do you want to help?
Reply #5 of 12 posted 24 JUN by Robert Neil Rippetoe

You do have a way of coming right to the the point. I appreciate that.

Has anyone defined yet how to be more precise in categorization?

If changes are to be made, they really must be made right, or as best possible.

Should prickle size be part of the equation?

It's daunting to think of the labor needed.

I wonder if anyone might come up with an algorithm that would clean up most listings in one fell swoop?

I mean most are going to fall into an "average" category.

Having the discussion is a step in the right direction.

Thanks, Robert
Reply #6 of 12 posted 26 JUN by HMF Admin
Yes, it's possible to make a global change to affect all rose listings which meet other HMF defined criteria/conditions. For example (a poor one), it's possible to issue a global (database) command for all rose listings that have the thornless attribute and are red and bred by xxxx, etc, etc. If a set of conditions can be well defined we can go that route. Meanwhile we'll have to review our references, and software, to see why so many are mislabeled.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 26 JUN by Patricia Routley
I wish you luck Admin. I add material mainly from references and few references spell out information about prickles.
I have just noted the conflicting state of prickliness in 'Linda Campbell' in Kim Rupert's photos. He says: "Some canes can express few to no prickles, while others can be QUITE prickly." This confirms my comment above that a rose makes up its own mind whether to have prickles or not....sometimes. It is difficult.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 27 JUN by HMF Admin
Agreed of course. The concern is the "possibility" that HMF is incorrectly reporting this attribute even though the database is correct or that in the past changes were made in error in contrast to a listings reference.

As you noted, source information about a listing's prickles, or lack of, is limited and that's exactly the reason HMF's guests are always encouraged to share their experience with the roses they grow.

Ultimately, HMF is simply a tool to collect, organize, and disseminate information. It's usefulness is a function of the rose community's participation ... and the extraordinary devotion the moderators.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 27 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Looking at the plant of 'Summer Song', when it sends up a new shoot it has prickles fairly liberally distributed along its length but when that shoot produces side shoots it's prickle free.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 27 JUN by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Just to reiterate, very few are, "thornless or almost".

It would be much easier to manually make changes for those that truly are "thornless or almost", than for the many thousands that are not.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 27 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
Exactly Robert, I'd be very disappointed if bought this rose because I thought is was "thornless or almost" and it turned out the way it is.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 29 JUN by Hamanasu
I have just looked at my recently purchased (pot-grown) plant of Carolyn Knight. It has 6 stems. 3 are well armed with prickles. The other 3 are mostly smooth, with prickles only at the top (just under the flowers). In light of this, it does make sense to classify it as armed with prickles, given the categories currently available.
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