HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 8 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 19 JUN by scvirginia
I wonder if anyone who is familiar with 'Marie Ducher' could have a look at photos of my foundling to check for a resemblance.

Some thorns are hooked, while others are straighter...

Alternate ID suggestions are welcome!

I also wonder if Rose Petal Nursery's found rose "Laurel Hill" could be the same variety...

Thanks for having a look,
Reply #1 of 8 posted 9 days ago by Patricia Routley
Virginia, I have added more references to 'Marie Ducher' and it is one BIG puzzle. I believe the colours varied so much in the references as there may have been confusion with the China 'Ducher'. But I cannot understand why Brent Dickerson did not include this rose more fully in his books. The only mentions I can see are his Old Roses. The Master List second edition, listing on p381, and in his Roll Call: The Old rose Breeder p141.

Would you translate the 1869 reference please.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 9 days ago by scvirginia
Y'know, the description of yellowish white with rose colored outer petals sounds more like Marie Van Houtte than Ducher. If someone were typing up a series of Tea rose descriptions for a catalogue, it might be easy to transpose a description...

My two shekels' worth,

Actually, I just encountered a description of Marie Sisley that makes me think there was a typing error; "yellowish-white, margined with bright rose".
Reply #3 of 8 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
Not really answering your comment, Virginia, but I am beginning to understand why Brent Dickerson (and the "tea ladies") did not list the original creamy white [Later edit: creamy white is incorrect] transparent 'Marie Ducher' in the main body of their books. It was because that rose was presumed extinct. I had difficulty reconciling their exclusion of it with the very popular rose that was featured in the 2009 reference and which was the foundling imported from New Zealand.
Reply #4 of 8 posted 8 days ago by scvirginia
You've lost me. The oldest references all say 'Marie Ducher' was rose-colored or pink. Transparent rose or salmon-pink or light pink. Not until 1875 is she called cream-colored, and I suspect that could be a description of 'Madame Ducher' since 'Mme Ducher' was a GdD descendant.

Have you found a reference to an extinct 'Marie Ducher'?

Reply #6 of 8 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
I think I have lost myself!
Point well taken about the 'Mme Ducher' and the 'Gloire de Dijon' connection. Do you think it is worthwhile adding a "possibly...".note to the cream- coloured references. I see you have today added a dozen more references for 'Marie Ducher' including the 1875 Peter Henderson one which mentioned a coloured plate. Is the plate available? Private (unfortunately) correspondence to me has said "The present-day Ducher nursery says that ‘Marie Ducher’ had become extinct in Europe".
Reply #7 of 8 posted 8 days ago by scvirginia
I suspect that the colored plates mentioned in the Henderson reference were either part of a set for purchase or were sent loose along with the catalogue, and "suitable for framing". If I do come across an illustration of any sort, I will certainly add it.

If 'Marie Ducher' is extinct in Europe, does that mean that the rose John Hook referred to is not 'Marie Ducher'???

Reply #5 of 8 posted 8 days ago by Nastarana
I know nothing about 'Marie Ducher', but the rose in the photo of Amirose does not look like the others. The bloom in Amirose's photo does show the 'soft apricot" color mentioned in some references, the open bloom is quartered, which the other pictured open blooms are not, and the prickles are green, not red.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 8 days ago by scvirginia
Nastarana, I hate to admit it, but I don't see any prickles- green or otherwise- in the Amirose photo.

Given the varying descriptions of 'Marie Ducher', I have assumed that her coloring probably varies (or varied?) according to growing conditions and/or season? That photo certainly shows a lighter colored flower, but I had just supposed that it's down to Tea changeability? I admit that I'd feel better about that supposition if Amirose had posted a few other photos showing the range of coloring...

most recent 8 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 days ago by Nastarana
Do we know where this photo was taken? Was it a public garden?
most recent 13 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 9 MAR by Patricia Routley
Could the "Wretham Rose" be 'Paul Ricault'?
Reply #1 of 1 posted 13 days ago by Nastarana
The color and shape of flower look about right for Paul. I will check this summer when he blooms.
most recent 3 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 31 JAN 17 by Nastarana
What am I missing here?

How can a seedling from 'Old Blush' x 'Old Blush' possibly be hardy to zone 4b?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 2 MAR by CybeRose
4b does seem rather too northerly, but I haven't been there to check. I did see two specimens of Mr Bluebird in Lexington, KY, which is 6b (judging by the USDA map). However, both 'Old Blush' and 'Blush Noisette' survive nicely in nearby Frankfort, KY.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 3 MAR by Nastarana
I live in zone 5a and I can assure you that 'Old Blush' would not survive here without extraordinary efforts. Tennessee is about 500 miles or more south of the Northern tier states. Tennessee might get the occasional hard freeze; we have hard freeze from Dec to mid-March.
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