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In the Rosenjahrbuch 2011 on page 46 is suggested, that this rose might be bred by Rudolph Geschwind.
Can this be added as a reference?
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Reply #1 of 14 posted 30 MAR by  Grntrz5
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Jay, look at Alpenfee, that page mentions says Geschwind hybridized that one, and they look similar to one another. Also look at the found rose "Arcata Pink Globe".
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Reply #2 of 14 posted 30 MAR by Jay-Jay
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Thank you Grntrz5, for Your reply, but where can I find the page of Alpenfee?
I searched under members.
Why do You suggest, that I should look at the found rose "Arcata Pink Globe"?
Do You believe they're the same?... Or similar, or at least both setigera Hybrids?
You're acquinted with both roses?
How does Tolstoi behave for You?
Have some nice Easter Holidays!
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Reply #3 of 14 posted 30 MAR by Grntrz5
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Jay, I only noticed that all three roses, "Alpenfee", "Arcata Pink Globe" and "Tolstoi" have that similar Setigera look. Also, looking at some of the photos under each one, you can see that maybe some people might have a different rose than what they think they have-unless they have much better growing conditions.
Can you paste a copy of the reference you mentioned about Mr. Geschwind being the breeder for "Tolstoi" either here, under these comments or notify HMF to put that under the reference section? I have read that Jan Bohm found older roses when he walked around the countryside, and used them in his crosses.
Tolstoi has been pretty good for me so far, it is a large band for me in a medium sized pot, and has matte blue-green leaves, I haven't seen a bloom as yet. I do worry about where to site it this spring, we have such hot weather, and I lost my R. Setigera serena this fall, even after so much watering, maybe the Hybrid Setigera roses are less water dependent.
Yes, you have a very good spring, I hope your weather warms up soon! We see is that it's very cold there in Europe. This morning we have a large rainstorm heading our way, the birds are chirping. The daffodils are in the middle of blooming, the crocus have just finished, and the hyacinths are halfway colored-so no real scent right now. Tiny red leafbuds are starting to show on the roses, and more cold weather on the way for Monday, maybe some snow!
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Reply #4 of 14 posted 30 MAR by Jay-Jay
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I had seen the name Alpenfee before, but thought, that it was a members' name.
it indeed looks familiar to Tolstoi, some photo's of the other two too, but most of them and the plants look different.
I already asked if HMF could add the book and the phrase, mentioned in the initial post, as a reference.
My Tolstois are still buds on rootstocks from last year; I hope they survived the frosts, for I allready had cut off the top of the rootstock just above the union.
Why do You say that we have a very good spring?... Or where You just joking... it's almost the day of april fool! As You can see on the photo's in my journal of today, the roses have red leaves and buds sprouting, despite the snow.
I hope for you, that that storm will bring You some rain.
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Reply #7 of 14 posted 30 MAR by jedmar
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The reference from the "rudolf Geschwind" article re 'Tolstoi' and 'Stratosfera' is already there.
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Reply #8 of 14 posted 31 MAR by Jay-Jay
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Not from the Rosenjahrbuch 2011.
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Reply #9 of 14 posted 31 MAR by jedmar
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it is, there was already a separate listing of this important article from the "Rosenjahrbuch 2011"
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Reply #10 of 14 posted 31 MAR by Jay-Jay
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Where can we find that?... I can not find it at the rose Tolstoi.
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Reply #11 of 14 posted 1 APR by jedmar
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It is listed as "Rudolf Geschwind (1829-1910)".
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Reply #12 of 14 posted 1 APR by Jay-Jay
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Found, Thank You Jedmar.
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The photos of 'Tolstoi' do look rather similar to my "Arcata Pink Globe" .
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Reply #6 of 14 posted 30 MAR by Jay-Jay
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From what I can see on Arcata Pink Globe page, it does not look similar to my Tolstoi. For one Arcata seems to be rather pale pink, when Tolstoi is rather vivid, also the blooms in Arcata clusters seem to be on long necks, when in my Tolstoi they practically have no neck. Alpenfee looks similar though.
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I have heard from a gardener on the gardenweb who grows APG, and Alpenfee, and Tolstoi. She says all three are distinct from each other. So the search for the true identity of APG will have to continue.
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¿Can anyone suggest something about this rose?, found in Bariloche,Argentina, it cover almost all the roof of a house, as show in the photo, dark green glossy leaves, little fragrance, flower once spring-summer, The same rose it's in the enter of the house
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Hunch/Guess: that looks somewhat like 'New Dawn' given the pink blush tones on the younger blooms and the crazy sprawling habit. Those prickles look pretty serious too and ND is known for them. Even though the cultivar can rebloom, sometimes well, it often does not after a big show early in the season. New Dawn's fragrance can vary from light to moderate. It is also one of the most commonly planted roses in the world.
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Thank you bungalow 1056 for your answer but it is not 'New Dawn', that I know very well, I have three plants of 'New Dawn' in my garden, and it's very common here in this zone, and at first glance it look the same, but at a close look, this rose have a different shape and colour, this have more yellowish undertones, the leaves are different too, even though wichurana variety, this have a more dense foliage. But I must say that the first time I saw this rose (from a distance), I thought it was 'New Dawn'. I took this photo in january, may be I must go and see again... Thank you any way for your interest.
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Ah. Now the mystery deepens :) I ran an advanced search here on HMF trying to select for a predominantly white, once blooming wichurana rambler. I got back 4 pages of results- fairly manageable. Did you try this? Some of the results look similar to the rose in your photos. Others are listings for historical roses that have no photo documentation. Good luck!
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I was looking at the advanced search for Wichuranas, and I didn't find nothing similar, may be 'White New Dawn' ??, I was thinking may be it is not wichurana, ¿can be 'Lamarque'?, it is the only rose I find whit this size, and similar shape of the flower, and colour. I never see 'Lamarque', I only know it in books and HMF, so, I don't know how is the plant in general, and the leaves or prickles, If you know 'Lamarque', may be you can compare whit the photos I post, and say something about it. Thank you bungalow 1056
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Have you looked at Albertine? It can be pale pink to almost white or pale to deep apricot.
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It is not 'Albertine', I have it in my garden, and this rose is almost totally white, and not so fragrant.
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Sandie's suggestion of Albertine is a good possibility.
I took a closer look at the photos. Is the large shrub near the #32 address plate the same one that is climbing over the top of the house/structure?
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Yes,it is the same rose, people that live in the house said that prune this rose whit a chain saw.
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I am not sursprised that it takes a chainsaw to prune that massive plant! I did some searching here on HMF and came up with two possibilities, both sorted from several searches that only included roses with photos that are ramblers. Emile Fortpaule and Queen of The Belgians were the best matches I could find.
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Reply #10 of 25 posted 28 MAR 12 by Aurelija
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The blooms look a bit like Mme. Alfred Cariere, but canes of mine are virtually thornless and certainly do not have the reddish prickles.
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I think the most similar wichurana I find in HMF is Emile Fortepaule, but I never see this rose!, and it seem not to be so common, in HMF there is only two photos. And I don't think this rose can be an Ayrshire, like Queen of the Belgians (that have only two photos too). And certainly it is not Mme. Alfred Carriere, I have this rose, may be the colour and the shape and size of the flower is similar, but Mme A. Carriere have the petals more subtle and fragrant (with different and more strong fragrance), the leaves too are different in shape, colour and size. But ¿what you think about 'Lamarque'?, I am thinking about the size of the plant. I found this rose growing in another houses here in Bariloche, Patagonia Argentina, but nobody knows from where it come. I have taken cuttings to grow in my garden....I have a big garden... but, any way, I must think very well where to put this monster....
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Reply #12 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by Cà Berta
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You may be interest in comparing your unknown rose with Garisenda, a hybrid wichurana bred by Gaetano Bonfiglioli e Figlio in 1911. As you can see in the information about this firm, they had intense commercial relationships with South America, in particular with Argentina where Enrico (a grandson) lived for a while.
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¡Bello il tuo giardino, Cá Berta!!, molto simile al mio qui a Bariloche (un po selvaggio peró,...all uso nostro...si diceva nella mia famiglia...), now, as I can see you have 'Garisenda', so you must know her very well, for me it's the first time I hear about this rose, thank you for expanding my knowledge!, and it is probably that Bonfiglioli nipote has brought this rose to Argentina, ¿can you post some more photos? (if you have it), because there are only few, and it is not so common this rose I think. And may be, this rose that grows here a Bariloche is Grisenda. Here there is a lot of italian immigrants with close connection with Italy, and it's possible they grow this italian rose from Bologna. E scusatemi se io non scrivo bene ne italiano ne inglese, da troppo tempo nella mia famiglia si parla spagnolo.
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Reply #15 of 25 posted 29 MAR 12 by Cà Berta
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Hello Rafael,
I have a Garisenda but, for various reasons, it is still a little thing!! For this reason I have no photos of it, up to now. You can see more photos of this rose in Google by using the words Garisenda and rose as entries. There is a large and beautiful plant in Sacramento Historic Rose Cemetery.
The firm Bonfiglioli bred roses and introduced also many roses bred by Massimiliano Lodi; some are famous (Variegata di Bologna, Clementina Carbonieri); Garisenda is known; others are almost lost (Ricordo di Giosuè Carducci, Ricordo di Geo Chavez, Stella di Bologna) are still “surviving” in Sangerhausen; others (La Carmen, Luigi Galvani, Principessa di Napoli, Isabeau, Italia) apparently are lost.
Who knows? They may still be in some place in Argentina!!
Bruna
P.S. il tuo italiano è sicuramente molto meglio del mio spagnolo (=zero)!
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Ciao Bruna,
Mille grazie!! per il vostro generoso contributo. Now I would like to continue with my observation of this rose, may be we will be able to arrive at some conclusion about it. I will go and have a look now, ( I hope they have no used the chainsaw yet...)
Rafael
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Thank you Bungalow 1056, there is not final conclusion yet, but we will arrive to it
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Reply #20 of 25 posted 30 MAR 12 by Cà Berta
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It looks also like Docteur W.Van Fleet, the rose that gave New Dawn as a repeating sport. DWVF is also the parent of a few other roses whose description may fit your unknown one.
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P.D. It is the same variety of the first post in december, as I said before, this rose grows here in several places
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This is the same variety that grows in the house of a friend, it looks different (the flowers) than that of the first post in december,I think this is because are autumn flowers, these photos I take today, the other plant (posted in december) has ben pruned with chainsaw, and it is in flower too, but in the top of the plant. This one is more accessible.
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Thanks for the additional photos Rafael. I had also thought of Dr. Van Fleet and see that others have the same idea. The ARS Rose Encyclopedia describes Van Fleet as a large flowered climber, moderately sweet scented with long, tipped elegant buds, flesh pink blooms that age to pale pink, bronze green early foliage and wavy edged flowers. It blooms in a large flush then only sporadically later in the season.
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Your 'not New Dawn' rose is 'Auguste Gervais' [Barbier, 1918].
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Thank you for your reply, I am honored by your interest, Mr. Charles Quest Ritson. I would like to know about the other mystery roses that I have posted in this site, and in the article I write for WFRS' Heritage Roses . I never got a reply about it.
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It was the article you wrote for the WFRS newsletter that I saw – I do not follow discussions on the helpmefind website – but I looked online for your e-mail address (not mentioned in the newsletter) and found the same pictures of 'not New Dawn' on helpmefind.
I regret that I do not know so much about Tea roses as do people who live in warmer climates than mine in France, so I fear that I cannot help you with your other 'lost and found' roses. The book by the Australian ladies is useful, but it is no more than a beginning – what we all need is an exhaustive study of 19th-century Teas and Noisettes in every corner of the world, though it would be difficult to find a publisher nowadays.
If you wish to contact me directly, my e-mail address is xxxxxxx@aol.com – and I understand Spanish, if you prefer to write in your own language.
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< I do not follow discussions on the helpmefind website.
What a pity.
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It is a lovely rose, very few thorns, foliage stayed clean so far without any spraying, vigorous and hardy (no winter dieback with -20C for a week). Blooms are large, form and size reminds those of Constance Spry or Caroline Testout. Strong fragrance, which drifts in the air. Canes are flexible so far (2 year old plant) and somewhat on a thin side.
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Loved a mood of the photo! :)
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