HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
most recent 8 APR 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 7 FEB 12 by DonaldQuRoses
I refuse to buy a rose named Ketchup and Mustard! Please please please - roses are elegant and should be named that way. It looks like a beautiful rose, but with that name all I can see is a hot dog --- and I'm a VEGETARIAN! ;)
Reply #1 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
But, might not those condiments also be appropriate for a veggie burger? As for "elegance" in rose names, you're forgetting ones such as "Happy Butt" , "Sweet Revenge" and "Crazy Dottie". Nothing "elegant" about those and there are many, many more.
Reply #2 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by DonaldQuRoses
Many many wrongs don't make a right! ;)
Reply #3 of 26 posted 7 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
"Tofu" included! LOL!
Reply #4 of 26 posted 8 FEB 12 by Aurelija
That's what happens, when the rose naming is done before the lunch. :)

I am with DonaldQuRoses on this one though, it is a very no-awe inspiring rose name.
Reply #5 of 26 posted 8 FEB 12 by Jay-Jay
Piccalilly....oh I'm sorry.... Piccadilly is in the parentage too!
(and Peace off course!)
Reply #6 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
I don't let the names bother me too much any more. If the rose is lovely I don't really care what the breeder decided to name it. There are too many really gorgeous roses that are named after politicians and so called "stars" that, except for their names, I want. So I just buy what I like and to heck with the names. Unless you exhibit and need to have the correct "Approved Exhibition Name" (AEN) if you find a rose you really love with a name you hate just buy the rose and pick your own name for it! Whose gonna know or care?
Reply #7 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I've honestly bought many over the years simply due to the name. At the "entrance" to my old desert garden, as it bordered a private golf course in a planned community, I planted Buck's "Hi Neighbor" as the greeting to the garden, though I honestly don't like the rose. I planted Hiroshima's Children next to Pearl Harbor. All of the "booze" inspired were planted together in "the bar". Tequilla Sunrise, Champagne Cocktail, Courvoisier and a number of others named for either alcohol or drinks were "tended" there.

I grew many which were named for notable, strong, intelligent women, Marian Anderson,
Madame Chiang Kai-shek and others, held their court together. Though I've never grown it, The Wife of Bath is probably one I should as Bath's Wife was a formidable woman for her time!

The names don't have to be elegant to have meaning. Personally, I think the British have the best idea from a marketing standpoint. Name them for special occasions, making them the perfect gift for each one. I would add support for "catchy" names such as Eyes for You as it's actually lyrical, "I only have eyes, for you..." I think women's names are a sure bet to make them marketable, too. How many times have you at least been tempted to buy a rose (or other plant) to honor someone because it was their name? Believe me, it can be a very emotional moment! I planted a fuchsia in a friend's garden I'd found, which bore her name. She called to tell me how much she loved it. I asked if she'd red the tag. She returned, exclaiming, "it's MY name!" The next time I saw them, her husband came up to me, wrapped his arm around my shoulder, looked me in the eye and said, "Ya made my girl cry!" I apologized and asked if that was a good thing. He winked and said, "Thanks!" I thought it very sweet after forty years of marriage.

Why must only minis get the catchy, "cutsie" names? At least Ketchup and Mustard FITS the coloring of the rose and doesn't gag me like names such as "Angel Face". Argh!
Reply #8 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
Oh, I too have bought my share strictly because of the name. At one time I had one for each member of my family except my brother Alan. He was very disappointed because we just couldn't find any rose named Alan.

And I confess I like the cutsie names! I bought Tattooed Lady because the name just tickled me and I don't even have a tattoo. Once I got the rose I found the name really does fit the look of the rose too. I love the name "White Pearl in Red Dragon's Mouth" and wish I could grow it here. "Tipsy Imperial Concubine" Is another great one.

For my money I hope breeders don't all decide to get all serious and only use "elegant" names. I hope they continue to come up with fun and sometimes intriguing names. My brother dubbed one of my seedlings out of What a Peach, "Son of a Peach" and I like it, lol!
Reply #9 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Tom Carruth told the story of a peach colored moss mini he created some years ago. The naming was a collaborative effort in the office. One of the marketing people suggested the name they went with, Peach Fuzz, and then from then on, he checked to see how "his rose" was doing. I agree with you about cute names. I've been accused of using "quirky" names. Perhaps. I'm still looking for just the right seedling to name, "Tequilla Mockingbird"!
Reply #10 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Seil
Lol, I love it, Kim! I think it would need to be yellow and orange stripes myself.

I'll bet that naming that rose Peach Fuzz gave that worker the feeling he had a vested interest in the rose so he wanted to keep track of it.
Reply #11 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I'm sure of it. Can you imagine how exciting it was for him to go home and tell his family HE named their new rose, then share such a clever name with them?

I love the stories behind them such as the ones for Just Joey and Hi. They're cute and real. I really must retaliate for Angel Face and name one "Kissie Face"!
Reply #12 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Jay-Jay
We grow Warm Wishes at our front door; not for the name, (that's a bonus) but for the colour.
But my wifes taste altered and this autumn we'll plant there brighter and smaller roses: Tintinara.
We'll keep the W.W. and plant them elsewhere in the garden.
Reply #13 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija
Hm I normally do not buy a rose because of the name, although some are a nice bonus (like Jude the Obscure, Distant Drums, A Whiter Shade of Pale or Alchemist).

I wish there was more naming based on a literature/movie characters than the real people. To give a well know example, a name Princess Leia would say more than a name Carrie Fisher, an actress who played her in the SW saga, or Arwen Evenstar would say more than Liv Tyler, who played her in LoTR.

I have a fair share of the obligatory real "ladies" in the garden, and most of them leave me rather cold and uninterested when I Google up who their were.

I am not all that fond of the "Captain Obvious is obvious" names either, like Pink Beauty, Pink Angel, Pink Cover, etc. There is zero imagination and poetry in that. Could as well be named a Pink Zombie (or Pink Zombina, to follow a generic femininity of the rose names). x)
Reply #14 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Agreed, but naming a rose for a "celebrity" is a two edged sword. You'll have those who will buy it FOR the connection and many who won't buy it BECAUSE of it. Naming them for politicians, particularly here in the US is now certain death for a rose in most cases. Austin was very wise to choose Shakespeare to name some of his earlier roses for, but even those can have negative connotations. You'd have to be very careful to obtain permission (often with financial considerations involved) to use modern fictional character names. Not that you'd want to, but imagine what it might cost for permission to call a rose "Shrek"!

Ironically, it's the "zombie" type names you dislike which sell best, at least in this country. They have no negative associations with people or behaviors, are easily remembered, and possess enough of a positive and descriptive element to remain 'commercial' for decades without any special social or political knowledge of a particular time required to understand their names. Warren Millington, an Australian breeder, has a real knack for coming up with amusing, entertaining, descriptive, memorable names. You should check his out. I think you'd enjoy them.
Reply #15 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija
Hehe Natural Blonde and Social Butterfly are definitely names to remember. :)

Regarding the naming though, the copyright issue is rather complicated. In general you cannot copyright the names (imagine a hassle if someone called their child Shrek, and if then someone wanted to call a rose after mister Shrek Smith). There are fine lines with it of course and the various institutional demands, and in general it is less stressful not to pick the obvious unique naming. However, the trick is to pick the less obvious cultural references, like for example a common phrase "At least we don't sparkle" is a direct reference to the movie saga Twilight, however you cannot pin a copyright to this kind of cultural reference, because it is too generic, although identifiable phrase. :)

Said that, my generation probably will be garden marketing viable only in a few decades, so I am rather curious how that will change the generic naming trends. :)
Reply #16 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Those are funny! A few years ago, J&P introduced two climbers, High Society and Social Climber. Of course, I liked the second one a lot better, both for size, color, health and definitely the name! Ralph Moore named a striped seedling, Two Timer, and a mutual friend went absolutely ballistic as her ex husband was one!

In 1927 there was a HT named, with permission, for the industrialist, Henry Ford. Twenty-seven years later, his permission was once again asked to name a rose for him, which he refused. The creator actually found another gentleman named Henry Ford and obtained HIS permission to name the rose for him, though the public never knew it.
Reply #17 of 26 posted 9 FEB 12 by Aurelija
lol, Social Climber sounds like a perfect name for a rose that tends to escape to the neighbors garden, you know, to socialize (and steal their sunlight). :)
Reply #18 of 26 posted 10 FEB 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Actually, that's more High Society around here. It's a much larger climber. Social Climber is quite happy in a 20" pot on a friend's patio, growing happily into her lattice covering. In the open ground, it's usually less than 10' high, making it perfect for the common wrought iron fencing in newer communities. It's healthy, vigorous, fairly heavily flowering in a nice color and large flowers. Pretty much the perfect climber for smaller areas which can't handle a barn eater.
Reply #19 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Daniel Alm
The name Ketchup & Mustard doesn't bother me, but certain first ladies are not allowed in my garden because of their husbands' sins. I recently broke down and bought JACsegra, I feel terrible giving money to that institution's agenda, but I bought it end of the season discounted 50% off, so hopefully the money didn't get into their coffers. I refuse to call JACsegra by its exhibition name, totally creeps me out.
Reply #20 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Rupert, Kim L.
I understand your sentiments, but is that one really any more offensive than any of these? JACbush, AROnance, JACorbet, JACtanre, JACurnam, JACgray. None of these have ever, nor will ever, grow in my garden.
Reply #21 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Daniel Alm
I find all of them equally offensive, but thankfully, the ones you listed are mediocre roses that are as odious as their namesakes. JACsegra is an excellent rose by all accounts and I like the color too. It's a shame I can't find Karen Blixen sold anywhere, because I'd rather have bought that as a lesser evil.
Reply #22 of 26 posted 23 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
Karen Blixen is a rather nice rose in my opinion, but doesn't perform that well.
Really good performers are Ingrid Bergman and Ambiente. Pumping out flowers all season long, in contrary to Karen Blixen. Parole is a very good-one too, with huge well formed flowers and as a bonus a very good scent!!!
Reply #23 of 26 posted 24 MAR 16 by Raynyk
It's almost a bit embarrasing but I'm a sucker for the romantic sound of the old french roses, Souvenir de la Malmaison, Madame Legras de St. Germain, Ghislaine de Feligonde, Belle Sans Flatterie etc. I usually don't read up on the history of the names, or the persons and places behind it as it's mostly a letdown.
But if I would have two equal roses and one of them is named Pink Sweetie and the other Souvenir de la Reine de Senteur I always go for the later one. A bit silly maybe and I'm not even frenchspeaking.
Reply #24 of 26 posted 7 APR 17 by a_carl76
I believe I found this rose being sold at a big box store here in Iowa in the bag with sawdust under the name of "Gold and Fire". Isn't it sad that I think this name is better. It isn't blooming yet but the description does seem to fit so I bought it to see if it really is. I also found that they are selling Tropical Lightening as Climbing Lightening. Unlike many other places, the bagged roses at this place are usually correctly labeled and I was willing to shell out the $3.99 to test it out.
Reply #25 of 26 posted 8 APR 17 by Nastarana
There are three historic daffodils from the 1820s, I believe, named 'Butter and Eggs', 'Eggs and Bacon' and 'Codlins and Cream'. So, K&M may someday seem merely quaint--those silly early 21stC Americans you know--, and the name is at least a welcome change from the Romance Novel Soft Core Porn school of marketing. The rose seems very handsome, but I wonder how it might perform in a cold climate. Can anyone compare it with 'Kleopatra', which I think has similar coloring?
Reply #26 of 26 posted 8 APR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
Dianthus 'Sops in Wine' is older still.
most recent 6 MAR 17 SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 JAN 12 by SteveinAus
Just came across a bush of this variety at a local garden centre (Melbourne, Australia, mid summer) and absolutely LOVED the fragrance. About as good as you'll smell. Looked to be pretty gangly, though. Don't think I'd care if it still produced a good number of those magnificently perfumed blooms, though.
Reply #1 of 39 posted 18 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Steve, if Lordly Oberon performs there as it does here, do NOT believe it is a shrub. Treat it like a climber which wants to be 15' - 20' and both of you will be quite happy. It has lovely flowers with fairly good disease resistance and intense fragrance. It roots easily and is enormous own root.
Reply #2 of 39 posted 19 JAN 12 by SteveinAus
Thanks kindly for the tip, Rupert (or is your first name Kim?). When you say "treat it like a climber", what exactly do you mean by that? I don't have a lot of experience with climbing roses and certainly don't have any experience with any that get to 15'-20'! I take it you would need to have something big for it to climb up/on to? And how does it go from being a rose that it said on the tag grows to 6 foot, to being able to grow up to 20 foot? Do the canes just start getting longer and longer, if you don't prune the bush?
As for "rooting easily", do you mean if you plant it with the graft a few inches under the ground that roots will start to grow from the lower canes, or do you mean that it is easy to propagate from cuttings (which I haven't managed to do before, although I've only tried once)?
Any help on this would be much appreciated, as I haven't really learned about these things with roses yet.
Reply #3 of 39 posted 19 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Steve, Kim is my first name. How it goes from a shrub to a climber is simple. In a harsh climate, where cold, lack of heat, shorter growing season, etc., govern the growth, it becomes a large shrub. Where the season is long, resources plentiful and heat and light levels are sufficient, this thing just keeps growing! The canes get MUCH longer and new canes stimulated by pruning get overly long, too.

It works best if there is a wall or fence upon which to grow it. I have one at a client's grown up the entry wall. Her mother's is trained against a block wall. Both get taller than their "supports" so have to be trimmed back regularly. Both produce four to five foot canes which break into flowers, usually three to a cluster, so if you wanted to, you could easily cut them with three foot stems. This is the one grown on the block wall. The wall is a bit over five feet tall and it's been trimmed back, just beginning to throw new growth. This is the one grown on the entry wall. It's a bit more difficult to see due to the tree limbs entering the shot from the right, but you can get the idea. If the plant were grown in a more severe climate with reduced sun intensity and duration as well as higher winds and much more cold, it would be more "stunted" or controlled, producing a shorter plant. Here in the "land of endless summer", it grows unchecked by anything short of being whacked back by me. It's very much like gold fish growing to the size of their bowl. Put it in a larger bowl, it gets bigger. Give this rose sufficient resources and it will make good use of them.

I'd imagine if you wanted to bury the bud union it could go own root, and it does root easily. Both of these are own root plants. If you'd like to experiment with a very easy method of rooting, please feel free to check out the wrapping method I've detailed on my blog, Pushing The Rose Envelope at this address.

If you start where I've linked and read it through, you should find most of your questions answered and be up to date on the latest tweaks and discoveries. I've already wrapped about twenty varieties of cuttings now (the first on Christmas Eve, second on New Year's Day) and planted them in their pots waiting for the rains to help carry them forward. As with any method of anything gardening, it probably won't work exactly the same in your climate due to all the variables, but it should provide you with the basics for you to be able to adjust it as you go and succeed where you haven't before. There are many methods of rooting which work, but not all work identically everywhere. This was the first to work in my new climate, where all the methods I'd previously had success with in the old climate, failed. Please feel free to use any of it and share variations you find which tailor it to suit your specific needs. Enjoy! Kim
Reply #4 of 39 posted 19 JAN 12 by Jay-Jay
Kim, is that the same brick wall as the one with Annie Laurie McDowell? (
And the blog is added to my favorites.
Reply #5 of 39 posted 19 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Good catch, Jay Jay! Yes, it's around the same back garden. Annie Laurie McDowell begins at the gate to the far left, followed by Star Jasmine as the Mme. Alfred Carriere got too large and the neighbor's tree shaded it too much. Now, the tree is gone but the Jasmine remains. The two Sally Holmes which covered the patio cover had to be moved, so they come next, followed by Rosarium Uetersen and Lordly Oberon. Dortmund meets it in the corner and eats the wall down to where Malvern Hills once stood. That was replaced by two new smaller climbing polyanthas which, hopefully, won't over grow the space. The garden owner didn't want to see the block walls and already had several of the roses, but in the wrong places, so I moved them around and we're all much happier now.
Reply #6 of 39 posted 19 JAN 12 by Jay-Jay
I have a strong recollection/memory....
That's not always nescessary a good characteristic! Sometimes a burden.
Reply #7 of 39 posted 19 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I understand, believe me!
Reply #8 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Margaret Furness
You might like to try a warm-weather method of striking cutttings, too. See > Resources > Rose Propagation. It's a variant of the ziplock bag technique developed by Mike Shoup in the US.
Reply #11 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Jay-Jay
Margaret, could You please give a direct link? For when I search with this-one I only get the whole website.
Reply #9 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by SteveinAus
Hi Kim, thanks a heap for the quick and detailed reply, plus the links and pics. The pics of Lordly Oberon are very impressive, thanks. I notice that the canes at the base of the one growing on the block wall look very "silver", as in fairly old. Is it not recommended to cut older, woody canes like that back/off, or doesn't it necessarily matter? And is there something "tying" the plant to the wall, or is the wall sufficient?
We don't really have any suitable spots for climbers here, otherwise I'd like to grow some, so I'll have to wait until I hopefully live in a suitable spot with room for them, then I can put all I've learned into practise and can experiment with varieties like this. We're also in a very windy area here, so growing taller roses can be a bit of a challenge. I imagine the possums would also have a bit of a feast on them, if they were climbing on fences or some walls. One climbing rose we do have (Cecile Brunner) climbs onto the front part of our front roof and they get up onto the roof and munch away on that one from there!
I'll also have a look at your blog when I have a bit of time to take it all in. We barely have room for all the roses we have here now (most are still in pots and will need to either be put into the ground, or into much bigger pots soon) so I don't have much room for any new ones that I've grown from cuttings or anything, but hopefully I will at some point down the track.
Thanks again and good luck with your latest cuttings and any new varieties you're working on!
Reply #10 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Steve, thank you! You may, if you have room, create a tripod or "tee pee" to grow it on. That can allow you room to grow larger roses needing support without walls or fences. This one was bred for vigor in a harsher climate from very vigorous roses, and it makes very good use of that in milder ones.
Reply #12 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by SteveinAus
You're most welcome Kim and thanks for the tip. That does sound like a good idea for growing climbers without a wall or fence!
Reply #13 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Jay-Jay
You might use re-inforcingrods use for building with concrete. And wiretwist them together.
Reply #19 of 39 posted 21 JAN 12 by Aurelija
If you get windy and wet as we had it this winter, the tripods have to be secured rather substantially in the ground, not to timber over. I had a few climbers still on a bamboo tripods this winter and it was a major pain to keep them from flying off, with the whole support. To think off it, they probably would have done better without any support, than the bamboo tipies. x)
Reply #14 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
I'm sorry Steve, I just realized I didn't fully answer your questions. These plants put out basals easily and much new growth from all of the existing canes, so taking out older ones hasn't been an issue. I use a product called the Tumex Trellis Kit instead of setting screws or other attachments which jeopardize the integrity of the wall surface. It consists of small aluminum caps with eyelets. You glue them to the surface with silicon rubber. Once they dry, usually a day or two, you can either string the aluminum wire through the eyelets to create a custom trellis of the size and area you've designed with the caps or tie the plant directly to the eyelets with plant tape. Occasionally, there are failures with caps coming loose, but I've used the product for nearly ten years with excellent results. I'm sure you have something similar where you are. I'll have to see if I have a package around for a web site as searching for it on line just now resulted in no hits.
Reply #15 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by SteveinAus
No worries Kim and thanks for answering those questions, it's much appreciated. This really is a great place to share info!
Reply #16 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Jay-Jay
I had the productsite stored under my favorites, despite the unavailability in the Netherlands. (only in yhe USA and Canada.):
Reply #17 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Rupert, Kim L.
Thanks Jay Jay. I was in a rush to get out and must have been hitting something odder than I normally do!
Reply #18 of 39 posted 20 JAN 12 by Margaret Furness
Try this, Jay-Jay:
The cuttings need (at least) 6 weeks of warm weather using this method.
Best wishes,
Reply #20 of 39 posted 21 JAN 12 by Jay-Jay
Thank You Margaret,
I might even try it this winter, for the night temperatures are a lot higher, than the (for Dutch winters) usual day temperatures! Crépuscule still has leaves...and flowers! Last winters some canes died because of the frosts.
Reply #21 of 39 posted 4 MAR 17 by ddrose
Dear Kim I grow Lordly Oberon in Sacramento, California. I have planted him against a sunny side of the house.
Oberon's canes are every so long. And they only seem to bloom at the ends. I am blessed with a warm dry climate so the enchanting blooms do open..........but they are so high above my head! And not very many since they only seem to bloom at the end of the cane. Do you have any suggestions on how to prune this beauty so I an enjoy more of those exquisite flowers?
Reply #22 of 39 posted 4 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Hi Ddrose! I love Lordly Oberon's flowers, but in our climates, there really isn't any such thing as "prune to make it bloom". This horse IS a climber in milder climates. These are two I grew at clients' homes in the Santa Clarita Valley for years.

The only way I have ever accommodated Lordly Oberon was to grow it like the climber it wants to be. You can whack it back as often as you want, but it will continue demanding many feet of growth before it produces a flower. The first photo is a two story entry where we tried growing the plant to cover that expanse of stucco. I have 70" long reach pruners with 35" sleeves and I still needed a step ladder to dead head it. Grown that way, pretty much straight up, because there was too little horizontal space available to lay it out in that direction, there was little bloom and always at the ends of six-foot-plus canes. The second photo is at the first client's mother's house where I could grow it against a five foot tall block wall. Even that was too short for the growth it demanded. It usually flowered two to three feet above that five foot wall on laterals from the main canes. In Britain, with their harsher winters, shorter growing seasons and lower "heat" periods, it is a vigorous shrub. In much of California, it IS a climber and refuses to be constrained. Good luck!
Reply #23 of 39 posted 4 MAR 17 by ddrose
Dear Kim, I guess to get more of those wonderful roses, I should work for laterals. What if I let the canes stretch out as they want and hope for laterals after a year or two to start blooming. thanks for the encouragement. LO is a gorgeous fragrant flower - on giant canes.
Reply #24 of 39 posted 4 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! Yes, train the canes out as horizontally as you are able and they will begin pushing laterals almost immediately. Those laterals will flower in just a few weeks. Once they've bloomed, but them back to two or three buds and each of those will then push more laterals and each will then flower. It's very much like espaliering fruit trees then pruning for fruiting spurs. You are only limited by the room in which you have to spread it out. Apical dominance is the sap pressure is highest at the tallest point and that is what pushes new growth and flowering. By bending the canes off the vertical, you more evenly spread out the sap pressure along the cane, stimulating the buds along the cane to push growth (laterals) to flower and fruit (set hips). Most roses will respond this way if trained this way. "Climbers" are generally just overly long, hopefully more limber, "bushes", so even bushes with more limber growth will respond the same way. Climate can inhibit the overly long growth, as it does for the Austins (and other) roses which are "shrubs" or bushes in shorter, colder climates but, when unleashed in longer, warmer conditions, "climb". Spread it out, but not downward, as sap usually will not flow down hill and the cane ends will die back. Just off the vertical and all the way to horizontal, and you should have a fine crop of very long, flowering laterals. Lordly Oberon will root pretty easily, so if you want another plant to grow somewhere more suitable for training like this, root some laterals after they flower and have fun with it. Can you imagine that spread all along a tall fence? Incredible!
Reply #25 of 39 posted 4 MAR 17 by Nastarana
If LO roots easily, it could be a good candidate for propagation by layering.
Reply #26 of 39 posted 4 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Though I've not tried it, I believe it would respond favorably. Bob Edberg, who owned Limberlost Roses and Liberlost Rose Books, grew it in his entry in Van Nuys, CA for years. The plant created a canopy over his front door and grew over on to the roof on the opposite side of the entry. He should have put it out on his fence to battle with Mermaid!
Reply #27 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by ddrose
I bent a couple canes over horizontally a couple years ago - and some of the laterals grew more than 6 feet with a couple blooms at the top. that frightened me.
I guess i should not be so fain of heart. I willl work at making some canes more horizontal, and then shortening the laterals to 3 or 4 buds. I did that to a climbing peace rose - and is was beautifull. Lordly Oberon is an even more veritcal rose, so I will have give him more encouragement this year to go lateral. Thanks for the encouragement.
Reply #28 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Jay-Jay
Étoile de Hollande Cl. behaves similar, but when trained horizontally it may look like this:
Reply #33 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by ddrose
The laterals appear to be cut to 3 or 4 buds. Should I take those very long laterals and cut them down to 3 or 4 buds?
Reply #34 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Jay-Jay
One can do that during the growing season as well as in spring.
The best and longest canes/laterals, I use to train horizontally and to replace dead or diseased wood, or those horizontal canes that do not flower abundantly.
The smaller ones, I cut back to 3-even 7 buds. Later in the season, I cut the (left) longer laterals back again after flowering. And flowers for on the vase of course!

If You go back in time over the years, the whole story of this particular rose of mine (Étoile de Hollande) is told in photo's.
Reply #35 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by ddrose
Jay Jay my garden is in downtown Sacramento, CA. Lordly Oberon has quite a few canes shooting into the sky. The canes get thick and rigid quite fast and are hard to train horizontally. I will have to go out and talk to him this afternoon. As you might guess, LO has had me buffaloed.

Is it too early to try striking a few cuttings? Maybe if I start a younger LO it might be easier.

Thanks for all the advice, Jay Jay. Etoile de Hollande is a highly cherished rose. If I can persuade LO to be as lovely as Etoile...what a wonderful world this will be. dd
Reply #36 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
There are numerous methods of rooting cuttings. One which works quite well is to use stems from blooms whose petals have just shattered. As had been earlier suggested, you may also try the various layering methods, even the most basic method of simply laying one of the canes on the damp soil and putting a heavy rock on it to encourage it to root. With all that material to experiment with, you should Google all the different methods of rooting and try as many as you are inclined to try. All of them work somewhere, though not all are going to work everywhere and with every rose. Your summer heat may prevent you from using some, while that heat may help make others work better, faster. You should definitely read the "Rose Rustler's Took Kit" at this link which goes hand in hand with this wonderful article, also by Mel Hulse, here in Help Me Find.
Reply #29 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Jay-Jay
...and later on like this:
It can have new canes over 3m long
Reply #31 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Beautiful, Jay Jay!
Reply #30 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome, go for it!
Reply #32 of 39 posted 5 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I trained 'Étoile de Hollande Cl' for a neighbour like this on the front of her house. I allowed the canes to grow up 1.5m then they are all tied in horizontally between the ground floor and first floor windows. The rose responds well and flowers abundantly.
In the past it was quite common for climbing roses to be used in bedding schemes in public parks. The new canes were supported in metal hoops whilst they were growing, then in the winter pegged down 30cm above the ground so they would flower all along their length.
Reply #37 of 39 posted 6 MAR 17 by ddrose
Did some of the ends of the pegged canes die? when i train a cane horizontally if frequently dies back.
Reply #38 of 39 posted 6 MAR 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Perhaps you're training them too far downhill? If you're not having success with full horizontal, then make them less "level", still with an upward direction. Experiment to see how close to full horizontal you can successfully train them. Each rose is different, depending upon their genetics and I can imagine any water stress or extreme heat (which causes water stress) can inhibit their ability to push sap long distances. The length you can get it to flow horizontally in a milder climate might be greater than what might work in extreme heat.
Reply #39 of 39 posted 6 MAR 17 by Andrew from Dolton
I would cut back a little off the end of each cane depending on it's vigour and it's size. If the rose is supple enough the growths can easily be trained to arch over curling around on itself when grown against a wall or on wires and the sap will be running up hill and down hill. However we seldom, if ever, suffer from extreme heat or drought in the U.K.
most recent 21 SEP 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 15 OCT 13 by Jay-Jay
Most of the photographed roses look, as if they have too many petals!
Reply #1 of 17 posted 18 MAR 16 by AlanaSC
Jay-Jay what does yours look like? Do you have a picture you can share? I wish this rose was available here!
Reply #2 of 17 posted 18 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
Hi Alana,
I should have specified myself:
I saw the rose at Aurelija's place (she made pictures) and I liked it.
I went to HMF for the description and all the other assets.
In the description for Tour de Malakoff on HMF is on the one hand written it is a Centifolia (hundred flower-petals) and on the other hand, the description states it is double: 17-25 petals.
But most of the photo's show flowers with many more petals. ("really 100 petals")
That's why I wrote my comment, but until now no-one reacted to it.
And Alas, I still do not have this rose, but may get some budwood from Aurelija, if I asked for it.
On the photo of Jeffcat the flower seems to have the right amount of petals fitting the description.
Maybe a real connoisseur might shine his or her light on this matter?

PS: I really like those very double roses pictured on HMF... even better than the "maybe original-one".
Reply #3 of 17 posted 18 MAR 16 by Patricia Routley
Obviously 17-25 petals was wrong. We've increased it to the maximum we have, which is 41+. Perhaps one day an old reference with the number of petals may yet turn up. Thanks to you both.
Reply #4 of 17 posted 19 MAR 16 by AlanaSC
Thanks Jay-Jay. I'm sorry to hear you no longer have this rose. Hopefully you can get her again. It's funny how you sometimes prefer the fake to the original huh?
Reply #5 of 17 posted 19 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
Please read the comment of Patricia and the older references.
Then may come clear, that the many-petaled ones are supposedly the right ones.
And those I like better.
In Charles Quest Ritsons' Encyclopedia (2003) of roses the photo is of the many petaled rose de-pictured on HMF. He calls it a China-Hybrid. Zone 5. Prone to mildew and Blackspot.
Mr. Ritson states, that it is one of those crosses between a Chinese and an old European Rose. (translated from the Dutch Version)
For more info see the English version.
Reply #6 of 17 posted 19 MAR 16 by AlanaSC
Ohh ok, that went right over my head! BTW I emailed Hortico, which is listed as selling this rose and they said they no longer have it, so they may need to be removed as a place selling this rose! Thanks Patricia and Jay-Jay.
Reply #7 of 17 posted 21 MAR 16 by Aurelija
I don't remember exactly how many petals mine had, I think it was quite some and rather thin ones. In my garden it is not prone to anything, but I usually do not have very bad bs and mildew attacks. It is a bit sprawly and needs some support, at least so far. Mine still is not big, hopefully it remembers to show some growth this season, it is in its 4th or 5th year (with one replanting), so my patience slowly is running out with him. ;)
Reply #8 of 17 posted 22 MAR 16 by AlanaSC
I can understand that your patience has run out after that long! Thank you so much for sharing that with me. Do you think the one replanting may have set him back? Maybe this will be his year for you. I hope so!
Reply #9 of 17 posted 24 MAR 16 by Aurelija
It is probably not that much because of the replanting, but for some reason (contrary to what often is said) I never found old garden roses easy to grow. Most of the old garden roses I have tried to grow (30-40 different ones) do not do well on my rich heavy farmland clay, or at least they do quite worse than modern hybrid teas or shrubs or even old good wichuranas/musks as an example. My theory about that, mostly based on the experience with the other plants, is that the closer plant is to the species, the more likely it is to have a difficulty to adapt to the different soil/growing conditions (acid ground plants are the worst offenders there). Around the same time I had some same old roses planted in my old z5 foresty soil garden and here - despite the freezes and all, those in z5 are doing better. Also some of mine moved to Jays garden on more light soil and there they do much better than they ever did here on the clay.
So all in all, even though here Tour is struggling, it might do much better if the soil was more light and old rose friendly.
Reply #10 of 17 posted 25 MAR 16 by Raynyk
This is also what I've heard from my local rose guru, species and hybrids close to them do best in lighter soils, contrary of "common knowledge" that heavy soils are always best for roses.
Hardiness is one of the main issues in northern scandinavia and heavy clay soils makes the roses more prone to freeze back, maybe because heavy clay and lots of nutrients lengthens the growing season to far into autumn.
Reply #11 of 17 posted 25 MAR 16 by AlanaSC
I'm not sure if we have the same type of clay but I have hard red clay. I planted my OGR in it ( after a rain had softened it up)and amended the hole some in most and not at all in a few but mine have been doing great. I think it may take them a while longer to spread but other than that they have done great. With two exceptions. So I wonder what difference is?
Reply #12 of 17 posted 28 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
Alana, I was mistaken... I already have this rose and made some photo's today:
Reply #13 of 17 posted 28 MAR 16 by AlanaSC
Hey Jay-Jay are you budding it? It's looking good! I haven't tried doing that yet...I do have plants to bud onto now thanks to a rose friend. I'll ahve to root so more and play around with it :)
Reply #14 of 17 posted 28 MAR 16 by Jay-Jay
It's not that difficult, when done at the right time!
Reply #15 of 17 posted 21 SEP 16 by AlanaSC
Hi Jay-jay I am finally receiving this rose this fall from palatine! I hope it does well and breaks dormancy in spring. Wish me luck :) I hope yours is doing well.
Reply #16 of 17 posted 21 SEP 16 by Jay-Jay
Good luck with the Tour de Malakoff. I'll look forward towards photo's.
I'll attach some photo's of the bud-graft.
Reply #17 of 17 posted 21 SEP 16 by AlanaSC
Hey Tour is looking good! I know you can't wait for a bloom :) I'll post pics of mine when I get it and in Spring...and hope I get a bloom!
most recent 14 JUL 16 SHOW ALL
Initial post 19 JAN 11 by Aurelija
Regarding shade, from my experience, Plaisanterie is quite shade tolerant.

I planted her where she could get maybe a few hours of late afternoon sun, but really it did not get even that, as clematis dropped on it halfway the season. Now I cut back the clematis and under it there she is, perfectly healthy, not even leggy 1 meter high and multi-cane bush (as she was about 10 cm high when I planted her it is nice achievement for a first year). Last summer she even bloomed and rebloomed, no disease whatsoever. The only thing that blooms did not have the orangy yellow coloration, but stayed violet-pinkish, not sure though if it was due to the shade, or due to the lack of heat in my climate.

Moving her to the sun this year, as huge clematis and huge thorny rose in one mess is something I rather would not have to deal with. :)
Reply #1 of 2 posted 20 JAN 11 by HMF Admin
Your posts are great additions to HelpMeFind - we wish more site guests would share their experience like this.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 14 JUL 16 by Wilhelm
Try shrub clematis (clematis integrifolia). They are going very with Plaisanterie, especially in part shade.
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