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JasonSims1984
most recent 5 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 5 days ago by JasonSims1984
This is a great rose. It is nice and bushy, and I just like it so much more than a lot of modern grafted roses. Mind you, a hardy, own root hybrid tea is a very special thing. Only a few perform well for me, and interestingly enough, Blue Girl and Blue Moon do very well, as do several Hybrid Perpetual and Moss roses and other OGRs. Purple is my favorite color and coincidentally purple roses grow well for me. My aesthetic is very species oriented, and once again, species grow well for me. So it may be a chicken or the egg situation. Maybe they do well for me because I like them a lot so I take better care of them, or maybe they are better growers for me so I have adopted a soft spot for them. Both sides of that equation are probably true.

I'm hoping to get a cross of moschata x rugosa this year to send to someone, and to keep for myself. Probably the closest thing to that in existence is the gootendorst roses. It would be nice to get a direct species cross to capitalize on fragrance, hardiness, remontancy, and disease resistance. I can see a lot of potential there.

I would love to recreate the damask as rugosa x moschata x fedtschenkoana. It would normally have gallica instead of rugosa, but gallica is a once bloomer. With rugosa in the cross, all parents would be rebloomers and that would mean a nice steady reblooming fragrant damask type rose with improved cold tolerance. A lot of people would say I'm basically wasting my time making such primitive crosses, but a nice perfected species cross with a clean bloodline free of disease sources would be a good starting point to base a hybridizing program. Some of the nicest roses are very simple.
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most recent 2 SEP SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 23 JUL by JasonSims1984
Who knows where this rose can be purchased in the States? Does anyone grow it? I mean Kordesii itself. I know that a bunch of Canadian Explorer roses are very heavily derived from it, and Dortmund is a readily available first generation offspring, but I really would like to have it as a pure genetic specimen.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 2 SEP by Michael Garhart
If you can't find it, Rosarium Uetersen is probably the most genetically similar that's easy to buy.
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most recent 6 AUG SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 1 FEB 17 by JasonSims1984
How does the scent of the leaves compare to the original sweetbiar (in terms of strength)?
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Reply #1 of 12 posted 6 FEB 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
From my experience, there is little scent to the Buck rose's foliage, while Eglanteria can carry many feet on the air under the right conditions. The scented foliage is one of the reasons I grew Apple Jack.
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Reply #2 of 12 posted 11 FEB 17 by JasonSims1984
I wonder if there is a way to get a continuous flowering sweetbriar.

Beggeriana supposedly is weakly remontant, as is agrestis. They both supposedly carry the sweetbriar scent.

Maybe use a fragrant foliage bourbon like Gloire de Rosomanes or Grandma's Hat to cross with Rubiginosa and toss Magnifica into the mix and just aggresively inbreed them.
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Reply #3 of 12 posted 11 FEB 17 by Rupert, Kim L.
Eventually, you probably could get repeat. Who knows what (if anything) the foliage might smell like; what the flowers would look like or how healthy it might be?
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Reply #4 of 12 posted 26 JUL by Michael Garhart
One could probably do something like this:

[(Modern tetraploid x (Rosa glutinosa x modern tetraploid)) x (Rosa glutinosa x modern tetraploid)]

Then self if required, even if 1-3 generations. Would highly suggest very powdery mildew selections of modern tetraploid. Like the moss roses, the rose can be highly resistant to powdery mildew, but the soft mossing (or the fragrant fuzz on the foliage) can get powdery mildew. Would also suggest the modern tetraploids to be quite short and recurrent.

This type of project would take 10-20 yrs to complete.
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Reply #5 of 12 posted 26 JUL by JasonSims1984
Hehe. Rinse and repeat!
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Reply #6 of 12 posted 26 JUL by Rupert, Kim L.
I would substitute the tetraploids with fertile triploids to increase the chances of picking up more of the foliage traits you're after. I've had a number of roses which wouldn't cooperate with tetras work quite remarkably with triploids. They've been so cooperative, I go to them first and then to the tetras when I have extra pollen or don't mind having the efforts have greater chances of being "in vain".
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Reply #7 of 12 posted 28 JUL by Plazbo
R. glutinosa has the canina meiosis doesn't it? That may add to the complexity of the situation, especially if it's like R. rubiginosa in that the foilage fragrance is passed via seed (at least until the canina meiosis is broken)
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Reply #8 of 12 posted 28 JUL by Michael Garhart
It takes 2 generations to break the meiosis. I've done it many times. Foliage is easy to retain.

The caninae clan has been doing wonders at cleaning up wood. A lot of commercial roses get a lot of diseased wood in our very wet, cold winters. The caninae clan cleans it up very swiftly, which is nice. Same for lesser spot diseases (like cercospora) that show up in very early spring months.

The downside is that most of the caninae clan has climbing genetics. Specifically, throwing climbing basals in August/September/October, but not in the early warm season. Rosa glutinosa avoids this hassle, but it's much more prickly that most of the others. Much like rugosa prickles.
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Reply #10 of 12 posted 29 JUL by Plazbo
Is it consistent?

I'm in early days of breeding with various R. rubiginosa derivatives (and seed collected from feral plants...could be species could be hybrids to some extent). Have a lot of seedlings from Lord Penzance growing at the moment (it's almost as if every seed germinated) with various classes so if the breakdown is fairly consistent it may mean this generation may be free of canina chromosome oddities (but not be reblooming......although some f1 foetida are unexplained rebloomers so a weird fluke could happen)....I need to think about that and if it changes anything, was just going to breed them with themselves until a rebloomer turned up...possibly test it with some (slightly) glandular moderns as seed parent.
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Reply #11 of 12 posted 6 AUG by Michael Garhart
Summer Wind has Applejack's scent, but its only on the buds. Its an everblooming shrub type -- probably tetraploid (behaves and breeds like one -- never microscoped the pollen), so that could probably lessen the vast amount of years of such a project.

Rubiginosa will not just fully germinate, but the birds will spread it far and wide. Be careful. It's a weed. I have seen it wild in Montana and Idaho. In one mountain pass of Idaho, through the state forest highway heading towards Montana, you can see both Rosa rubiginosa and Ros foetida in rock cliffs where soil collects. Rosa canina is wild here in Oregon where I live. It can be found for about a 50 mile radius.

So ya gotta be careful with them.

Is cercospora resistance consistent in breeding? It has been with Rosa canina. Probably with glutinosa, but I need more to see a wide extent. I dont know with Rosa rubiginosa, because I abandoned it very quickly. It had to many cons vs. pros to justify the years required for species breeding.
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Reply #9 of 12 posted 28 JUL by Plazbo
There would be. I mean Raddlers Alaska reportedly contains some of the foliage scent (to what extent I don't know, it's not here but wish it were) on a far more modern repeating plant. Which would come from Applejack (so maybe not as strong as a real sweetbriar) given many of his plants heavily feature Applejack in their pedigree (via his own crosses with Applejack and via Carefree Beauty) and Applejack traces back to Magnifica (which appears to have passed some of the related rubiginosa genes via pollen).

So there is some evidence that it's possible. What we have may not be the best results possible but that's not surprising when the goal of the breeding's (Applejack reportedly has vertical resistance to some strains of blackspot, would assume this is why it was used a lot in the early crosses by Raddler. Applejack appears to be a chance result of combining two Magnifica derivatives, but apparently goldbusch can pass on foliage scent).

I suspect the biggest issue in using moderns on this front will be that moderns for the most part have been increasingly selected for shiny foliage which is probably going to trap the scent or prevent it from being as free as it is in the species....but that's possible down to selection and can be worked with.
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Reply #12 of 12 posted 6 AUG by JasonSims1984
A ton of roses have fragrant foliage. Foetida and eglanteria are not the only ones. There is such a neat world to work with.

Fedtschenkoana is a gem. I love it. It's so thorny but it's great. A lot of the biggest breaks come from lines where the competition pressure is low.

It's like getting a community college education at 35. People will support you at not hate you. Lol. You think it's the other way around but it's not. You're supposed to be
a successful surgeon but who gives a hoot? You can be a successful drag queen. Hehe.

Wait.....which pills did I take and which ones are kicking in? Is this the rose forum?

Oh. Yeah. Rosa fedschenkoana. That's my recommendation. Applejack, goldbusch(its parent), fedt, golden angel(a fragrant yellow used in miniature breeding) and moss roses. Just mix it up. There's a californifica crossed with a fragrant yellow that has fragrant leaves. Just keep doing your research on those mosses and fragrances.

It will all snap together, and keep introducing new blood into your lines. Applejack is fine to carry in but don't rely on it 4 and 5 generations in. It will just lose its influence. I think Salet and William Lobb, and reblooming mosses will carry a project further mixed with wild eglanterias.

Get Autumn Damask for sure to cross to eglanteria and mosses to keep a common ground.

I'm going to make some rugosa x moschata, and some (rugosa x bracteta) x moschata. They will be invasive and remontant as hell for sure. That would be a good skeleton.
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most recent 1 AUG HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 1 AUG by JasonSims1984
So this rose is very intriguing to me, as a tetraploid, with some limited rebloom genes. I kind of feel like DNA testing is in order to find out if it is in the background of fedtschenkoana and Harison's Yellow and not the other way around.

You know? I think ancient civilization sometimes discovers these things and then is given a lot of excess credit. Then we watch Ancient Aliens shows on TV and think our distant ancestors were geniuses. Nah, we are still building McDonalds and electing Donald Trump today. A lot of great thing are pretty much accidental.

No offense to anyone's political views. Donald Trump is plenty of fun to watch on TV. Hillary is a coockoo bird, too anyway.
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