Yes, there were doubts: According to Thory in 1824, the double Boursault rose is a seedling of the single Rosa reclinata, which in turn was a cross of R. chinensis x R. alpina. This parentage added. Later parentage statements came 70 years later and seem to be a simplification.

We are closing this listing until further notice. Comments are still possible.

I hesitate to reopen this thread and to comment, in that John Starnes and Joyce Demits are no longer among us and can't reply. Yet I think, for the sake of historic accuracy, I should make some gentle corrections.

1. I certainly did not create the concept that 'Louis Philippe' is the Florida Cracker Rose; that has been quoted by many rosarians over many decades. While it is often mixed up with 'Louis Philippe', 'Cramoisi Superieur' is NOT also referred to as the Florida Cracker Rose.

2. I have no idea where the idea came from that the "cracker rose" was this pink rose, or who in the Tampa Rose Society may have begun that story. But in nearly 40 years of growing old roses in Central Florida (just 20 miles east of Tampa), I have never, ever heard anyone but John make that claim, or even suggest it. Nor am I aware of his Pink Cracker Rose having ever been found anywhere outside the greater Tampa area. Certainly, in Polk County, I've never seen one. I had quite a challenge getting a copy of it for study, in that no one seems to grow it. At last, a friend in California sent me a known-true start of it.

3. This part is rather messy, in that there were misconceptions, but not as John remembers them. We had a large hedge of a rose on our Florida Southern College campus that we thought was 'Old Blush'. When John and I looked at it, he pointed out that it was different from 'Old Blush', in that it never set hips. I don't recall him mentioning his cracker rose at that time (this would have been late 1980s). I agreed with him, but then did not have a name for it. Joyce Demits visited our gardens in 1991, and she recognized the hedge as 'Napoleon'. John has always remembered that event differently from me, but I have Joyce's note to me, identifying it as 'Napoleon'. Until then, I had never heard of 'Napoleon', but Joyce assured me that's what we had. Since then, many China rose experts have seen it, and everyone seems to agree it's 'Napoleon'.

4. Re. Scvirginia's comment -- yes, nurseries have sold the rose known as 'Pink Pet'/"Caldwell Pink" as "Pink Cracker." I'm not sure if other old pink roses may also have been sold under that name.

5. We grow 'Old Blush', 'Napoleon', "John Starnes' Pink Cracker," 'Burbank', and Sacramento's "Not Alice Hamilton." They all certainly have resemblance to each other, and we've run DNA tests on all but John's rose, and with the PCR tests we've used, they come out as identical (but then, so does Hermosa!), so their differences are so minor at the genetic level that the PCR test doesn't catch them (perhaps single-point sports of each other).

6. Of all of these, I'd say 'Napoleon' is the closest to being identical to JSPC. But at this point, I'm not willing to say they are identical. Our Pink Cracker is growing in our greenhouse, and I really need to put it out in the garden, next to 'Napoleon', for a good comparison.