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Plazbo
most recent today SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 16 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
Does anyone know if Rosa multiflora seed needs to be stratified first or can germinate without cold treatment?
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Reply #1 of 12 posted 17 DEC by jedmar
Rosa multiflora grows in 300-2000m in China, so it would seem to need cold periods. In USA it is an invasive neophyte in a band from Kentucky to the East Coast. I found this text on Bugwood Wiki:
"In eastern North America, multiflora rose is abundant from the Great Plains (where the species has been planted as wind breaks) to the east coast. It occurs from northern Texas, Arkansas, Mississippi, Alabama, and Georgia in the south, north to the New England coast, central New York, southern Michigan, Wisconsin, and Minnesota. It occurs only as plantings south of central Georgia, probably because of the lack of cold temperatures needed to stimulate seed germination. The plant’s northern distribution is limited by its sensitivity to severe cold temperatures."
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Reply #2 of 12 posted 17 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Jedmar, the seeds are now in my refrigerator. The seeds are from a particularly deep pink flowered variety of the above dwarf sport.
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Reply #3 of 12 posted 17 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
When I was in Switzerland, some years ago, on the train from Zurich to Kreuzlingen there were white rambler type roses growing wild on the embankments, sprawling on the ground. Would that have been multiflora?
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Reply #4 of 12 posted 17 DEC by jedmar
I must admit I have no idea! Rosa multiflora is not an invasive neophyte in Switzerland. Could it have been plantings of Rosa rugosa alba?
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Reply #5 of 12 posted 17 DEC by Andrew from Dolton
No, it definitely had stems trailing on the ground and panicles of smallish flowers, maybe too prostrate to be multiflora.
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Reply #6 of 12 posted 8 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
I put the seeds in the refrigerator for three weeks, then, because I am impatient and they had already been outside in the cold I took them out and gave them some bottom heat on new year's day. This morning the first seedling has germinated.
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Reply #7 of 12 posted 8 JAN by Jay-Jay
Would that implicate, that seeds of a lot of roses don't need stratification to germinate.
I already wondered, whether Hybrid Tea seeds would be better of without a cool period.
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Reply #8 of 12 posted 8 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
What I had planned to do was to alternate between cold and warmth periods, 30 days each time, until the seed germinated. I picked the seed the day before I sowed them (on 15th December), and before that we had had six weeks of temperatures cool enough to stratify seed. They actually probably didn't need any time in the fridge at all. I would think that Hybrid-Tea roses would just grow straight away from a hip picked from outside right now, but I wouldn't be so sure about seed collected say in September. A China rose or a Tea probably don't need a cold period because they come from a warmer climate.
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Reply #9 of 12 posted 8 JAN by Jay-Jay
Next week the seeds I got from Pakistan of R. webbiana collected from Batura Glacier, Gilgit Baltistan region, Pakistan by KBW Organic 9b will be sown.
Then they have been in the fridge at 1°C for two months. I think, that those need stratification, when I see at which height they were collected near a glacier.
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Reply #10 of 12 posted 8 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Yes I think that's wise. Sowing seeds and waiting for them to germinate is just the most exciting thing
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Reply #11 of 12 posted 8 JAN by Jay-Jay
I hope they'll germinate, for I got them dried. Soaked them for 48 hours in regularly replenished water, kept them a short period in a watery solution of Hydrogen-peroxide and per-acetic acid, to kill eventual diseases.
And then kept them in the fridge in wet coarse grained sand.
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Reply #12 of 12 posted today by Plazbo
HT, floribunda and mini's in my experience will germinate in around 2 weeks if temps are below ~15c/59f above that and nope nothing happens. I don't stratify seed (intentionally, winter night temps that can reach fridge temps though), I just sow directly into pots outside the beginning of autumn, march (summer hemisphere, sydney australia here) was super warm this year so germination didn't happen until mid april (when temps started being under 15c/59f) unlike previous years when they normally start around 2 weeks after sowing.

It's not just those classes either, I have around 150 seedlings from Lord Penzance at the moment, they were some of the earliest to germinate and never saw temps of 10c/50f let alone what a fridge would be and yet still seems to be around 75% germination rate (Others have said R. rubignosa seed wouldn't germinate until the second year....I really wasn't expect so many seedlings). Have Dagmar Hastrup seedlings too but it could be argued that they didn't start germinating until night time temps reached almost fridge level for a couple hours at night.
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most recent 8 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 29 AUG by SoCal Coastal Rosarian
There is a growing consensus among Southern California rosarians the this rose may be the best of several cluster blooming yellow floribundas introduced over the years. Atrributes include excellent sprays highly suitable for exhibition, richness and clarity of color, superb remontancy, vigor, an attractive bush and disease resistance. The old favorite among exhibitors, Golden Holstein, is a wee bit short on vigor. I prefer this rose over it's sister seedling, Doris Day.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 8 days ago by Plazbo
Disease resistance there, based on the fair rating in the voting here though it seems its possibly location specific. I know its parent Julia Child is often praised online over there but its ugly and sick here (Sydney, Australia) as soon as summer temps arent killing disease.
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most recent 10 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 MAY by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
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Reply #1 of 31 posted 10 MAY by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 31 posted 14 MAY by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
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Reply #3 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #4 of 31 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
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Reply #5 of 31 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
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Reply #6 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
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Reply #7 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
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Reply #8 of 31 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
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Reply #9 of 31 posted 16 MAY by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
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Reply #10 of 31 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
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Reply #11 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

"RED ROSE - FRANCOIS DUBREUIL.
A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
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Reply #12 of 31 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
Interesting.
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
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Reply #13 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
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Reply #14 of 31 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
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Reply #15 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
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Reply #16 of 31 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
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Reply #17 of 31 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
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Reply #18 of 31 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
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Reply #19 of 31 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
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Reply #20 of 31 posted 8 JUN by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
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Reply #21 of 31 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
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Reply #22 of 31 posted 9 JUN by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
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Reply #23 of 31 posted 9 JUN by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
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Reply #24 of 31 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
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Reply #25 of 31 posted 10 JUN by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
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Reply #26 of 31 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
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Reply #27 of 31 posted 14 days ago by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
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Reply #28 of 31 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
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Reply #29 of 31 posted 12 days ago by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
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Reply #30 of 31 posted 11 days ago by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
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Reply #31 of 31 posted 10 days ago by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
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most recent 7 JUN HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 JUN by JasonSims1984
I bet this would be an excellent rose to hybridize with. I mean, it's a tetraploid, so it's fully compatible with modern HTs. So basically, this rose could be a good scaffold for a more formal flower. I could imagine a cross with Mr. Lincoln to give it better disease resistance. It has all of the basic genetics for rebloom and good foliage, and the flower form is nice and simple. It probably carries genes for damask fragrance.
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Reply #1 of 6 posted 6 JUN by Give me caffeine
Mr. Lincoln doesn't have particularly good resistance to disease. It survives defoliation because of its inherent vigour, but it's not resistant as such.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 6 JUN by JasonSims1984
Oh, yeah, when I say "give it better disease resistance" I'm referring to improving Mr. Lincoln. I think Portlandica and Autumn Damask could be kind of a good fallback point for creating better hybrid teas. I also think that some species roses would be a good idea to add back into the rose gene pool to get better disease resistance and vigor. Rugosa, bracteata, moschata, and fedtschenkoana are all really good.
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 7 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
'Duchess of Portland' gets blackspot very badly.
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Reply #6 of 6 posted 7 JUN by Give me caffeine
Aha. Yes that makes sense. :)
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 6 JUN by Plazbo
If going for red, Roundelay would probably be a better option than Mr Lincoln
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 6 JUN by JasonSims1984
What do you think about Dark Desire by Kordes? I have heard a lot of good things about its disease resistance.
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