HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Andrew from Dolton
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Initial post today by Andrew from Dolton
Rosa chinensis minima fruits and seeds, 17/3/18.
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Initial post yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Sorry no roses but here are some winter flowers. It has been a lovely and warm spring-like day. However tomorrow it will turn cold again with freezing temperatures and cold east wind, snow warnings for Sunday. It has all become very boring, all the shops will be emptied needlessly of various food stuffs yet again. But, I don't mind sacrificing some of the flowers, the camellia flowers that are opened certainly will be ruined. With great excitement I have just taken delivery of a parcel from Trever White Roses.
Reply #1 of 2 posted yesterday by Marlorena
Very nice Andrew, I like the mixture of colours. I wish winter would just go away.
Reply #2 of 2 posted yesterday by Lavenderlace
Just beautiful Andrew, thanks so much for sharing!
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Initial post 24 JAN by CybeRose
Dr. Neubert's Deutsches Garten-Magazin, Volume 37: 5-8
Kletterrosen für den Norden
Rudolph Geschwind

pp. 6-7
1) Erinnerung an Brod, eine Hybride, die schon als Strauch gezogen die Neigung zum Hängen zeigt, hochstämmig veredelt, in gutem Boden aber zwei Meter lange Jahrestriebe macht, die im Zustande der Blüte bis zur Erde herabhängen. Die Blüte ist nahezu purpurn oder veilchenblau gefärbt und in dieser Farbe die einzige Rose, die sich einem wirklichen Blau in etwas nähert*). Von ferne gesehen erscheinen einzelne besonders dunkel gefärbte Blüten fast schwarz. Die einzelne grosse Blume ist dabei regelmässig kompakt gebaut und dicht gefüllt (ohne Staubgefrisse). Diese Rose, welche bei Herrn Franz Deegen junior in Köstritz Probe blüht, ist wegen ihrer düsteren Farbe die allerbeste und effektreichste Trauerrose für Gräber, um so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet.

*) Sie hätte ebensoviel Recht, eine blaue genannt zu werden, wie die Remontantrose Alsace-Loraine als schwarz bezeichnet wird, und ist weit eher eine Violacea als die Moosrose dieses Namens.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 24 JAN by Jay-Jay
Thank you for this reference!
Reply #2 of 12 posted 26 JAN by CybeRose
I think this note, or one like it, contributed to the old story that 'Erinnerung an Brod' was bred from 'Veilchenblau'. In fact, Geschwind was merely indicating that this rose was violet-blue - the color of March violets.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 26 JAN by Jay-Jay
I understood that, but could imagine, that it's genes were/could be used to get a blue rose.
The whole quote caught me,

But what really struck me was this: " so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet."
It really is a rose for the Northern Regions.
I would never have thought of the idea to use it as a mourning rose on a grave.
For me this rose is every Spring a real feast!
Never thought of using it as a solitaire too, for it has lanky canes, that need support... at least at my place.
And trained as a climber, one looks into the hart of every flower. But because it has flowers at lower levels too, one can take a sniff, every time one passes.
When it flowers, I go out, just before going to sleep, or even in my pajamas to to get a high/flush of its fragrance.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 26 JAN by Jay-Jay
PS: As You might have noticed in the past, this quirky rose is one of my favorites. And whenever I can, I promote it, show it to others. And often, they fall in love too.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 26 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Partly due to Jay-Jay's enthusing about this rose I ordered a very expensive one, (because I had to transfer money), from a European nursery. It will flower for the first time this year, I'm very excited. My theory is that the blue colour in roses originates from 'Tuscany'.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 27 JAN by CybeRose
I was looking for more info on 'Tuscany' when I learned that "Tuscan Red" is a color. According to Wikipedia:
"The first recorded use of Tuscan red as a color name in English was in the early 1800s (exact date uncertain)."

Coincidentally, the old Velvet Rose, R. Holosericea, seems to have picked up the name 'Tuscany' at about the same time. Could it be that the rose was renamed for its color, rather than for any supposed association with Tuscany?
Reply #7 of 12 posted 27 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
There is a vague area between 'Tuscany Superb' and dark hybrid perpetuals like 'Génie de Châteaubriand', I'm sure the two must be connected.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 28 JAN by CybeRose
I am not arguing. I am trying to get it clear in my mind whether 'Tuscany' was the same as the old Velvet/Holosericea, or a new variety. Neill (1823) was not entirely clear on the point.

Victoria, dark and double, superior to the Tuscany.
Parson, do. do. equal to the Tuscany.
Mount Etna, dark and double.
Mount Vesuvius, do. do.
Vagrant, do. do.
The above five raised from the double Velvet, R. Gallica.

He seems to have been saying that 'Tuscany' was not the same as the double Velvet. However, it might have been a seedling of the Velvet, like Brown's roses listed above.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 28 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Which ever is the oldest cultivar of these dark purple varieties could be the root of blueness in roses, maybe even a variety like 'Violacea', is there a completely single dark gallica or centifolia type?
At the other end of the time line could they have given their genes to hybrids like the "mauve ramblers" or 'Stirling Silver'?
Reply #10 of 12 posted 29 JAN by CybeRose
There are different types of "blue" in roses.
1) Vacuolar anthocyanic inclusions (AVIs) can be found in L’Evêque (1815), Bleu Magenta (1933) and 'Rhapsody in Blue' (2000), among others..
2) Rosacyanins are complex compounds based on an anthocyanin. 'Sterling Silver', 'Mme Violet' and 'Blue Moon' are examples. 'Morning Mist', another rose from Fisher, apparently shared these rosacyanins, which presumably come from 'Grey Pearl'.
3) Osawa: Copigmentation of Anthocyanins (1982)
Harborne (1961) attributed the color of blue roses to copigmentation of cyanin with gallotannin or leucocyanidin. K. Toki, N. Saito, M. Yokoi, and Y. Osawa (unpublished results) found that there is no difference in the basic flavonoid pattern between red and blue roses, but the concentration ratio of flavonols to cyanin varies considerably between the two types of roses: it is 30 to 50 in blue roses and only 1 to 3 in red roses. Suspecting copigmentation, they prepared mixed solutions containing 5 x 10-4 M cyanin and varying concentrations of quercitrin, a major flavonol of blue roses.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
CybeRose, I have been mulling over your reply, it's interesting thank you. I don't know how relevant this is but very few types of flower have a full range of colours covering the entire spectrum. One genus that comes to mind is Primula, in particular vulgaris, the common primrose and polyanthus the florist's primrose. In the wild vulgaris is pale yellow with occasional rare white of pale pink variants. Polyanthus are a mix of Primula vulgaris, veris and elatior the primrose, cowslip and oxlip. I have only once seen a red variant of P. veris in the wild. But these have been bred to have every single colour from the spectrum including pale blue, dark blue, rich purple, brown and green, any shade imaginable, yet the wild plants show very little variation.
Reply #12 of 12 posted yesterday by CybeRose
Delphiniums have come pretty close to a full spectrum, but the genus does have a few yellows and reds to get the party started. Irises haven't yet managed a true red, but there are enough brown-reds and lilac reds to compensate. Greens have been raised, but have not become fashionable.
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Initial post 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Jay-Jay your pictures capture durandii's matt powder-blue colour perfectly, if only a rose could be bred that colour...
Reply #1 of 6 posted 6 days ago by Jay-Jay
This is a rewarding Clematis, it flowers for months on a row till it gets to cold. Easy to maintain, it only doesn't grab other plants to stay upright or climb. Sometimes gets some mildew, but survives that. Doesn't freeze to death. As for colour, it combines/matches with a complete palette of (climbing- and/or shrub-) roses.
I'm not particularly waiting for such a rose (probably only possible with gen-tech) I like the roses how they are naturally and crafted by hand-pollinating. I really like Hulthemia persica ( ) but detest its offspring in combination with roses. Than I would rather take a Hibiscus to have blotches on flower-petals.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 6 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
It is always interesting to see what can be bred that pushes the limits of shape or colour or fragrance etc. I remember at Wisley in the mid 1980's they were breeding red Delphiniums.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 4 days ago by Rupert, Kim L.
Andrew, look at Blue for You and Rhapsody in Blue. Both are related and both can often express nearly the color you point out.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Thank you Kim. I really like these blue roses a lot but they are always in the purple/pink spectrum apart from genetically manipulated varieties like 'Applause'. Personally I think 'Baby Faurax', 'Bleu Magenta' and 'Reine des Violettes' have some of the bluest tints of any rose. I remember as a very young child my grandmother growing 'Blue Moon' and all the adults looking excitedly at this "blue" rose. It was still quite a new variety. I could not understand what all the fuss was about, like the emperor's new clothes.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 4 days ago by Rupert, Kim L.
You're welcome! Thankfully, here they are sufficiently variable that they honestly do generate the tints you see in Baby Faurax, Reine des Violettes and Bleu Magenta. Ironically, Reine des Violettes is very often pink-lavender to nearly white here due to our heat, brilliant UV and alkalinity.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
well I'm lucky sometimes to have the opposite, coldness, low UV and acidity!
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