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Andrew from Dolton
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Initial post 14 JAN 17 by Andrew from Dolton
In September 2015 I sowed seeds of this rose collected from plants growing on the South Downs in Sussex in the South East of the U.K. I chilled them for three months then started them off with some gentle bottom heat, but nothing grew. I kept them moist throughout the summer and bought them inside and gave them a little heat about a fortnight ago. Now they are germinating like mustard and cress! I only want a couple of plants for my garden so if other members would like plants too by the autumn of this year they should have made plants large enough for planting out, contact me, you are very welcome to them.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 2 days ago by AlanaSC
Do you have any left Andrew?
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Reply #2 of 3 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Alana,

Yes I do have a few small plants left. But it is illegal for me to send plants to the United States. If I can get seeds again I think I can send you some, However in some parts of the world this rose is an aggressively invasive alien pest so please check that in your region it is not a problem. Sorry to be a bit of a dissapointment.

Regards, Andrew.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted yesterday by AlanaSC
I'm sorry . I didn't realize you were not in the US. Thank you though!
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most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 3 days ago by CybeRose
Rose Listing Omission

Si

I could not find this one, maybe because the search requires 3 characters. So, just in case ...

Right Rose, Right Place (2009) by Peter Schneider
p. 167
Si, Miniature
Introduced: Dot, Spain, 1957
The smallest rose in the world, and worth growing for its novelty value. 'Si' has white buds, shaded pale pink in cool weather, no larger than a kernel of wheat. The buds are much more charming than the insubstantial white flowers that follow. The plant reaches about 8" for me and offers repeat bloom very quickly. You'd need to use manicure scissors to deadbeat it, but I have never found this to be necessary as the plant is apparently sterile and puts no effort into setting seeds.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
That is a difficult one Karl. I am sure we have discussed it before but perhaps only in my mind.
After scrolling through the alphabetical S lists; and also going into the breeder’s (Pedro Dot) list of roses, I found there is a third way of getting there. I searched with BEGINS WITH and asked for Si (
and got there. I’ve added the reference and moved the photos.

Deadbeat......was that your typo, or the author’s typo?
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 2 days ago by CybeRose
Patricia
Thanks for your help. I didn't think of Si (. And now I feel stupid for not checking the breeder list.

Deadbeat ... I was a victim of autocorrect and poor proofing.
Karl
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I've been trying to look up this rose for ages, thank you for showing me how.
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most recent 7 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 11 days ago by Margaret Furness
I feel stupid asking this, as Excelsa is wichurana / luciae and Turner's Crimson is multiflora, but would someone who grows both please post comparison photos? Trying to ID a foundling. It has feathery stipules, but so does what I assume to be Hiawatha (luciae) from the same roadside patch.
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Reply #1 of 18 posted 11 days ago by Patricia Routley
Quit feeling stupid. You’re LOOKING at a rose and that is smart. It is well known that most multifloras have feathery stipules, but in my garden most wich’s ALSO have this trait. Just take a look at the parentage tree of ‘Excelsa’ and you will see where the feathery stipules come from.
I think basically, a multi has matt leaves and a wich has shiny. Ignore the word luciae - just concentrate on multi and wich. You might also like to read the 2008 reference for ‘Turner’s Crimson Rambler’ which may help you know what sort of bush it is.
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Reply #2 of 18 posted 11 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Margaret,
Here are leaves from 'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson'. 'T C' has a more shrub like grow whilst 'E' shoots are quite brambly with its Wichurana blood. 'T C' often has two little leaflets by the stipule facing the opposite way to the other leaves. There is a good picture that Patricia has posted of 'T. C'. 'T. C' leaves are paler and generally not so shiny as 'E'. Both have featery stipules but 'T. C' are particularly bristly.
Regards Andrew.

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.147304
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Reply #3 of 18 posted 11 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thanks Andrew. I have the impression from your photo that Excelsa's leaves are slightly rounded, compared to Turner's Crimson.
Ramblers are survivors here, reflecting their ability to root down (layer themselves). I'm adding a couple of photos of what I think is Excelsa, where it can't have been watered for decades. The first has Excelsa in the foreground, Hiawatha climbing the tree; fortunately both just reach the road verge now, because you don't walk into places like that in summer. The second photo is an old country churchyard, which I like for the horse-trough in the foreground.
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Reply #4 of 18 posted 11 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Yes, 'Turner's Crimson' leaves are much more pointed and multiflora like. I found my 'Turner's Crimson' in a derelict mill along with what I believed to be 'Paul Ricault' but it now appears to be 'Paul Perras'. I know you aren't having anymore roses but 'Turner's Crimson' is such a historically important rose, and pretty as well.
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Reply #5 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Patricia Routley
I am not sure if this will help - the photo might be too small. I have included some ‘Mlle Cecile Brunner’ buds to help discern the ‘Dorothy Perkins’ pink colour.
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Reply #6 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Margaret Furness
Maybe not! It makes Turner's Crimson's leaves look rounded. Thank you anyway.
I'm collecting cuttings of ramblers to try to make sure one nursery has a full house as far as those in SA go. Very few nurseries selling heritage roses are left in Aus now. I need to make sure I get them right.
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Reply #7 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Here is a picture of a foundling rose that was later identified as 'Turner's Crimson', it shows the slight puckering of the leaves (Bullate?) quite well.

http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=21.319991

Ed. The member Palustris has many good pictures of these types of ramblers including 'Excelsa'.
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Reply #9 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Palustris
Andrew, that plant can't be 'Turner's Crimson Rambler'. Look at the pedicels: they should be covered with tiny hairs. I can't believe I don't have any good photos of it. Next year I'll take some good photos.
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Reply #10 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Oh! That's interesting. I wonder what this rose could be!? The plant I took my cuttings off would have been planted around 70 years ago and is grown in other gardens in the village too.
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Reply #11 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Palustris
I'm not certain, but the color looks about right for TCR.
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Reply #8 of 18 posted 10 days ago by Palustris
'Excelsa' and 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' are quite distinct once you have had the opportunity to see them both in full flower. TCR has much more maroon flowers than 'Excelsa' whose flowers are red fading to a dull pink. However, the absolutely easiest method it to look at the pedicels. On TCR they are absolutely covered with a profusion of tiny hairs.

This can be easily seen in Patricia's photo: http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.187524

It can also be seen in the picture from the book: Rosenbuch für Gartenliebhaber by J. Hoffmann, Berlin

Once the plants are out of flower, identifying them may be more difficult.
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Reply #12 of 18 posted 9 days ago by Margaret Furness
I think I have (access to) both, flowering at present on roadsides. On the left, near the restored bootmaker's shop from 1904 at Mylor, is what I think is Turner's Crimson Rambler, based on what I'm told about the pedicels. It grows in shade for at least half of the day, and has quite a bit of mildew. Some petals develop an ugly mauve tinge as it fades. On the right is the one about 5km away, at Bradbury, which I think is Excelsa, growing in full sun. The watsonia, and bracken and blackberry in a previous photo, are declared weeds.
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Reply #13 of 18 posted 9 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
I doubting whether my 'Excelsa' is correct now as well.
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Reply #14 of 18 posted 9 days ago by Palustris
Margaret, please look at my photos of 'Excelsa' that show the pedicels, peduncles, and small stems:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.263202

I think that the mildewed rose in your photo could be 'Excelsa'. Notice that the pedicels of TCR are completely covered by the tiny hairs, but on 'Excelsa' they are much fewer and they sparsely populate the pedicels.
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Reply #15 of 18 posted 9 days ago by Margaret Furness
It's complicated when both are found roses, and I think Patricia's are too. I should check at a nursery (which is going out of business) has named plants and re-photograph them.
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Reply #16 of 18 posted 9 days ago by Patricia Routley
Yes you should. Take the book 'Tea Roses' and photograph an average coloured bloom on page 206.
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Reply #17 of 18 posted 8 days ago by Palustris
Well, I'm sorry I haven't taken any good photos of 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' showing the extraordinary pedicels. I know there are a few plants in town all bought from Michael Walsh about 100 years ago. One plant was recently cut to the ground by the homeowner, but I am certain there are layered plants near it that I need to rescue so I can have my own clone.
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Reply #18 of 18 posted 7 days ago by Margaret Furness
This is Excelsa as grown at Thomas for Roses nursery (sorry Patricia, I forgot to take the Tea book). Nearer pink than red. Admittedly they have what I think is the same rose as Paul's Scarlet, but it's not that.
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most recent 13 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 14 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Hello Patricia,
Do you think the flower colour becomes pinker when the temperature is warmer or cooler?
Regards, Andrew.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 14 days ago by Patricia Routley
I don’t think so Andrew. The overall impression I have is the rose is white, but I have never taken too many photos of it over the years.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted 14 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
My plant is very pale pink in bud, rather in the same manner as some white rugosa roses. During cooler weather I thought the colour was a shade deeper.
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Reply #3 of 3 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
You have asked “flower colour”, but I presume you are talking of the bud colour. This is a cool season and yes there is a pink tint in the bud, visible in my 2018 photos. I have no idea what the temperature was like in 2008.
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