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The Swiss gentle man Fellenburg as that is the correct sow spelling of his name and that of this rose was a Swiss of German extraction. This rose is a creation of his without any doubt.
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Ah, you're the same as me - don't touch-type, and sometimes forget to check what has appeared on the screen when we've finished.
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Aussie Rose Lover - you might like to look at the other comments for this rose.
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I stand by what I said earlier about Mr. Fellenburg . In German burg is never spelt with an e. It is always spelt burg which means hill or mountain Patricia. This mistake has bean around for along time and unless one has a linguistic or philogical background one doesn't appreciate the subtle nuances of any given language or its spelling. There are spellings of words which have crept into English here and in the us and Canada which though popular still make them silly or theoretically incorrect ie; The american use of dove instead of dived for the past tense of diving.
I once mentioned the spelling of Fellemburg to David Euston.He like me grew up in South Australia surrounded by people of German extraction. He accepted like me that the correct spelling for fellemburg is with the u and not eunles Herr Fellemburg was English which he certainly wasn't.
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I wonder if the rose was named after:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philipp_Emanuel_von_Fellenberg
There was a prune in the Riverland in the 1920s 'Fellemberg' according to TROVE
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There are quite a few Germanic words spelt e-r-g, Battenberg for example. Burg = Castle, Berg = Mountain.
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Aussie Rose Lover - I wonder if you wouldn't mind using the EDIT facility to correct the incorrect spellings in your postings.
There are 60 or so references to this rose dating back to 1836, all using the berg spelling. The only point of contention is that whether the name was spelt with an N or a M.
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#7 of 11 posted
1 SEP 18 by
 HubertG
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In the digitised copies available online of the German periodical Rosenzeitung there are 22 references to Fellemberg, only one to Fellenberg and none at all to either Fellenburg or Fellemburg.
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Fellen means fallen in german, so family name would be 'descended from the mountains' , Fellem is hungarian for above myself and the family name would then mean 'above me the mountains, above the mountains'
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#10 of 11 posted
1 JUL by
jedmar
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The German etymology is a bit far fetched. "Fallen" in German is "gefallen". "Fell" is fur, "Fellen" is "of furs". The name is known in for a Swiss patrician family since mid 16th century. Contemporaries of the rose were e.g.
Daniel von Fellenberg (1736-1801), politician and lawyer
Philipp Emanuel von Fellemberg (1771-1844), educator and agronomist
Wilhelm Tell von Fellenberg (1798-1880), farmer and entrepreneur
The second was shortly (ca. 1798/99) ambassador to France. A Fellenberg prune is still in commerce, also called Fellemberg. There is no indication that he ever bred roses.
The spelling "Fellemberg" is a typical French misspelling of German words. Philip Emanuel is mentioned in the Revue anglo-française of 1833 as ". M. de Fellemberg a placé dans son grand établissement d'agriculture d'Hofwil , près Berne" etc. P.E.F.'s educational work was well-known in France. He was in contact with Marie Louise of Austria, the second wife of Napoléon. There are mentions of his establishment in Hofwyl near Bern from 1805 onwards
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#11 of 11 posted
2 JUL by
jedmar
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Additional research: According to Fellenberg family tradition, an ancestor immigrated from Tirol in Austria to the region Aargau, which was then Austrian land. The family name was spelled "von Vellenberg". Indeed there is a castle ruin Vellenberg near Innsbruck, Tirol. The family name "de Vellinberch" related to the castle is documented since the 1160s.
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Like Professor Higgins said, we Americans haven't spoken English in years.
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This rose was growing in my neighbours' garden in shady woodland conditions with slender stems about 2 metres into a willow bush. It does not look very vigorous but considering the conditions aren't perfect it is doing well, it appeared as my neighbours have been slowly taming a jungle of neglected garden. I had half thought it was 'Venusta Pendula' but the flowers have a pronounced myrrh scent. Even today with heavy showers and 13C the flowers have at least a mid to strong myrrh fragrance.
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It's probably the Ayrshire 'Splendens', which looks and smells exactly like the rose you've photographed and described!
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Does anyone know where I might buy this rose in the U.K.?
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#1 of 5 posted
12 NOV 16 by
Jay-Jay
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No selling nursery listed in the UK, but You might buy a plant of it at one of the 5 listed nurseries in the rest of Europe. Most do ship to the UK.
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Thanks Jay-Jay, I just ordered one from Denmark for forty quid! I can't believe no one in the U.K. sells this rose. Also I can't believe that there are no growers here specialising in miniature roses and I have had to order 'Erinnerung an Brod' from Germany.
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#3 of 5 posted
13 NOV 16 by
Jay-Jay
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Hi Andrew,
The recession urged quite a few nurseries to downsize their stocks and/or number of varieties.
Quite a few didn't make it through the recession.
And a lot of nurseries do not update the content of their stock-list, or even bother to list themselves or their stock on HMF.
Sometimes one needs to go way further from home, to collect the roses of one's liking.
Best Regards, Jay-Jay.
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Can you still get roses sent to Britain now...?
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#5 of 5 posted
14 APR 23 by
Jay-Jay
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Just contact the nursery Yourselves, from which You want to order roses. They can answer, whether they ship or not. But customs will most likely ask You, to pay import duties.
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How does one tell the difference between 'Louis XIV' and 'Nigrette'?
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#1 of 15 posted
4 NOV 15 by
AquaEyes
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I realize this response is REALLY late, but I was thinking about this after posting two pics of my 'Nigrette' today. Here in the US, every pic I've seen of either 'Nigrette' or 'Louis XIV' -- whether on here, on the Antique Rose Forum, or on nursery websites -- show the same cultivar. It wasn't a big deal to me, since I just wanted a fragrant near-black wimpy rose for a pot-pet. I knew that if a nursery didn't have 'Nigrette' but had 'Louis XIV' that I'd still get what I wanted.
Later, I wondered if 'Nigrette' was simply 'Louis XIV' reintroduced under a new name, but then I saw the 1936 reference for 'Louis XIV' which describes it as "...dark crimson, shaded, edges white..." Huh? White edges? I've never seen that on my plant -- nor on any pic for 'Louis XIV'. I then see later references from the 1990s onward describing 'Louis XIV' in about the same way as references describe 'Nigrette'.
So I think what happened is that some unnamed plants of 'Nigrette' were found, and subsequently identified as being 'Louis XIV'. This to me seems rather likely, being as 'Nigrette' was being wildly promoted upon its introduction as being "The Black Rose of Sangerhausen", and as such there were probably many planted back then. And interestingly, it came out about the same time as that old 'Louis XIV' reference which mentioned the white edge. If the two were so similar, surely there'd have been something about that noted upon the introduction of 'Nigrette'. But the only comparisons I find between the two are more recent, by which point I think the same rose was being grown under two names -- and thus the comparison was then warranted.
Of course, this is just my interpretation. Is there any source for 'Louis XIV' with a provenance that dates from before the introduction of 'Nigrette'? Or what about one from before the earliest reference from the 1990s? Since 'Nigrette' didn't seem to live up to the hype, it seems not implausible that it could be forgotten as a possibility when trying to identify an old unknown dark red fragrant rose.
:-)
~Christopher
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That sounds perfectly plausible to me, Christopher.
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I have just added a Peter Beales Rose Catalogue reference from 1982 which mentions the rose he was selling as ‘Louis XIV’ had “a good fragrance which is unusual in the China roses”. Beales listed no provenance and repeated his entry through to at least 1986. In that same year Krussman mentions that ‘Nigrette’ ....” is only found in specialized collections today.”
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#4 of 15 posted
11 AUG 19 by
AquaEyes
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There were some roses that were called "Chinas" simply because they were of that growth and bloom habit, but were clearly showing "blood" of Bourbon, HP, or even HT. If the true 'Louis XIV' really was a seedling of 'General Jacqueminot', then it'd be of that sort of "China" -- a wimpy Hybrid Perpetual that bloomed often. So that Beales' 'Louis XIV' had an atypical fragrance for a China doesn't necessarily discount it as being 'Louis XIV'. But I still think that what's going around as 'Louis XIV' and 'Nigrette' today are both the same rose, and that because the latter was seemingly more heavily marketed, it's the one of the two which survived to this day.
:-)
~Christopher
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#5 of 15 posted
11 AUG 19 by
jedmar
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In Halfeti, southeastern Turkey, grows the so-called "Black Rose of Halfeti", which was apprently identified by Martyn Rix as 'Louix XIV'. This rose apparently only keeps it black colour in the soil of the area, blooming dark red in other locations. It is presumed that it was originally imported by Armenians living in the area prior to World War I, so it cannot possibly be 'Nigrette'. It might be valuable to make a DNA comparison with the roses in commerce.
http://wowturkey.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4983507
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Wow, that impresses me as being an only marginal job of photo shopping the flower.
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#8 of 15 posted
12 AUG 19 by
jedmar
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The photos on that website are photoshopped, however, I have a description of this rose as being very dark red in a publication by late rose expert Turhan Baytop from 1997. The question is whether this rose, be it black, near black or very dark red is the real 'Louis XIV'.
In the article below is a photo showing true colours:
https://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/black-roses-in-turkey
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#9 of 15 posted
12 AUG 19 by
AquaEyes
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Martyn Rix said that the Halfeti roses were of the 'Louis XIV' family, not that it actually was that rose -- remember, those roses are often seed-grown. And in any case, that was just a comment of comparison, not a set-in-stone deduction. Also, what Martyn Rix knew as 'Louis XIV' was almost certainly the same that's sold under that name today, which is 'Nigrette'. Note the 1936 reference for 'Louis XIV' that mentions lighter edges to the petals -- that feature is not seen in the rose sold under its name today.. And look at the plant -- would you expect a seedling of 'General Jacqueminot' from 1859 to have such pointed buds?
I'm still holding that the rose going around as 'Louis XIV' is 'Nigrette', which is also sold under it's correct name. If you can find differences in pictures between them, please point them out to me.
:-)
~Christopher
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Utterly fascinating Jedmar. Many thanks for that link. I am afraid my tongue is firmly in my cheek at this stage though.
“This rose apparently only keeps it black colour in the soil of the area, blooming dark red in other location.” As does ‘Nigrette’ in Lexington - refer Karl’s photos.
I have peered closely at the tomato tin photo and see similarities with the Conard-Pyle 1935 illustration of ‘Nigrette’. The long straight thorns seem the same, as do the buds on the left of the tomato tin photo.
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My plant came from Beales, it's only mildly scented.
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#11 of 15 posted
25 MAR 21 by
JJS
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There are several accounts of Louis XIV before 1936 and none of them mentions white edges. And they certainly would if it actually had white edges. So my guess is that the 1936 description is just wrong. There are some reports that Nigrette is being sold as Louis XIV and since I just bought Louis XIV from a renowned old rose nursery here in Denmark I am very eager to see whether it will develop into an HT or an HP.
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JJS, I completely agree.
Perhaps the rose in commerce *in the USA* as Louis XIV is a renamed Nigrette (understandably since I can imagine it would be very difficult to sell a rose with a name like that over there), but here in Europe the two roses are district, and many reputable nurseries offer both varieties.
As for the notion that there are no references to Louis before Nigrette's introduction, this is very obviously incorrect.
Adding to the references already listed on the references page here, see the extensive list of references for Louis XIV on the Roseraie de L'Haÿ website's page for this variety. Many 19th and early 20th century mentions, always as crimson, velvety, NEVER a mention of a white edge.
Also, I would like to remind that the introducer of this rose is still operational (Guillot), a family run business since the 19th century. They still sell Louis XIV. I doubt they are confused about whether it's their own heritage rose or not!
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Unfortunately the Guillot firm, like many, didn't keep all of its productions, or lost some in the vicissitudes of time. Some of what they have now has been given or sold to them relatively recently, so it can't be assumed that everything they (or other breeders) have is correctly named.
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Thank you Margaret,
As I understand, there are two separate points that were being made in the discussion above. One was the possibility that the original Louis XIV had white edges, based on a single 1936 german reference. I think this one can safely be considered incorrect, in view of the many, many sources from the pre-Nigrette period that all consistently describe Louis XIV as a crimson rose, with no mention whatsoever of white edges. If the current list of references is considered insufficient to outweigh the Rozenlexicon one, I would be happy to translate a few more to add to that list.
The second point is about the possibility that the two roses have been confused. After all they are both small wimpy crimson roses, with very similar foliage, but there are a few differences; perhaps the most important among them is that Nigrette sets OP hips whereas real Louis XIV does not.
Louis XIV has consistently been in french rose catalogs since it's introduction (again see L'Haÿ's references page for this rose), so there doesn't seem to be a point when the rose would have been lost to be found again and confused with another.
Of course I could be mistaken, but it seems to me the confusion between the two in commerce is mainly something that happened outside of Europe.
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I don't know if it may help, but Bob Edberg, who created and operated Limberlost Roses in Van Nuys, California for a number of years, allowed me to add to his importation from Rosenhof Schultheis in the early to mid 1990's. I ordered Tawny Gold (which arrived as a medium red HT) and Nigrette (which is the rose sold by Sequoia Nursery and most others since that time) as I HAD to see "The Black Rose of Sangerhausen". Until that import order came out of quarantine and I began spreading the rose around to whomever would sell it, there was no listed source in the US for Nigrette. I had been purchasing and digesting The Combined Rose List since 1984 and searching for every oddball, esoteric and "extinct" rose I could find.
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