HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Andrew from Dolton
most recent 3 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 days ago
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
To me it is slightly citrus and slightly dull, a little like a very cheap white wine that has been left in the glass over night.
Reply #2 of 15 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Andrew, I want to see that fragrance description on the rose label hahaha.
Reply #3 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
It's a bloody boring rose, ten-a-penny at any garden centre. It was a gift for my birthday last year. I don't want to seem ungrateful but it was only given to me because I used to be the gardener at Charleston Farmhouse. I am too green fingered to get away with saying it just died so I have to keep the thing alive, and what's more, David Austin roses don't grow well in my garden so I have to lavish untold amounts of care to keep it alive when I could be spending time on far more interesting roses.
Reply #4 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Hamanasu
Thank you for the reply. I wanted a pimrose/pale lemon yellow coloured rose, and it was a toss between this and Harkness’s Diamond Days. The claim about its floriferousness and scent made me go for Vanessa Bell, but I too am a little underwhelmed...
Reply #5 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Nastarana
Is 'Lemon Spice' available where you live?
Reply #6 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Hamanasu
Alas, no, I’m in the UK, but thank you for the suggestion. Another primrose yellow I like is Alexander Hill Gray, which is available from Peter Beales and reportedly strongly fragrant of tea, but I read it balls in the rain, which makes it a poor choice for my climate. I’ll probably replace Vanessa Bell with another recent rose, Diamond Days, and see if I like that better.
Reply #7 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Do you like 'Agnes'? It might be a bit too dark for what you want and it only repeats slightly later on but the smell is very pleasant.
Reply #8 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Hamanasu
I have just seen your pics of Agnes and in your garden it’s certainly gorgeous! But I grow my roses in pots on a patio, and rugosas tend to grow too large for that kind of treatment (though I do have an own-root rose a parfum de l’hay happy in an 18 litre pot).
Reply #9 of 15 posted 4 days ago by HubertG
Hamanasu, I grow Alexander Hill Gray, and it does ball a bit, but I have never found it has a strong fragrance, despite the descriptions, and I have a fairly good nose too.
Reply #10 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Hamanasu
Thank you for the info -- that’s actually really useful. Do you have Mrs B R Cant? It seems to have little scent according to lots of people, but in my garden it is one of the best endowed -- tea with passion fruit. If (like AHG) Mrs BRC has little scent in your garden, then it might be that some teas behave differently in cooler climates than Australia? In the wonderful Aussie book on Tea Roses, Lady Hillingdon is also described as having ‘moderate’ scent, but the half open bud is always powerfully scented here in England... (I love teas, by the way, and I wish I had discovered them during the decade when I lived in Sydney... I realised, retrospectively, that I once saw some magnificent plants of tea roses in Rookwood Necropolis).
Reply #11 of 15 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
My sister grows a large bush of Mrs B R Cant, and it does have a wonderful scent here. There is something 'fruity' underlying it, can't say passionfruit has occurred to me, but it could be in the mix and it just never dawned on me. I'll make a note next time I smell it. I find that it the warmer weather here the scent of teas can be somewhat fleeting, and can be more persistently stronger in cooler whether, but I'm afraid Alexander Hill Gray is persistently weak generic tea scent all year for me. Some Teas like Mme Lombard seem to release more scent in warmer weather. Mine's flowering at the moment, flowers lighter than usual (almost apricot) but not much scent. My Lady Hillingdon is out in bloom too (and it's winter solstice time here) and the colour is richer and scent wonderful. I always detect apricots in it.
Bummer about not knowing about teas when you lived in Sydney.
Incidentally, Lemon Spice was a rose I was thinking of getting this season, but I think only one nursery here has it and I'm not sure of it's availability.

I just wanted to add that AHG would grow well in a pot if you do decide to give it a try. It is a beautifully formed rose.
Reply #12 of 15 posted 3 days ago by Hamanasu
My space is so limited I must be very selective, so if AHG has little scent, I might have to give it a miss, as I am determined to only grow well scented roses. (Mme Antoine Mari is the notable exception: it’s just too perfect, even with no/little/fleeting scent.) I agree AHG’s form looks beautiful, though — it reminds me a little of the (gorgeously scented) tea-noisette Marechal Niel, which I once grew (and gave up after a move, as its new situation didn’t make it happy, and it stopped giving me the perfect blooms I used to get in the first couple of years.) My Lady Hillingdon is also in bloom right now: what a luxury for you to have it blooming in winter. The scent to me is ‘smoky’ and similar to tobacco (in a nice/addictive way), though occasionally I too can detect apricots. It’s great you can relate to my experience of the delights of Mrs B R Cant’s fragrance. I love how this thread self-hijacked away from Vanessa Bell and towards teas. :)
Reply #13 of 15 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
I am conscious that hijacking means any future member seeking info on 'Vanessa Bell' has to wade through lots of irrelevant material to that rose.
Reply #14 of 15 posted 3 days ago by Hamanasu
That’s true, sorry. If you’d like me to delete the irrelevant posts, please let me know.
Reply #15 of 15 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
That is kind of you Hamanasu. HelpMeFind is a little different from other forums in that theoretically, all info exchanged should be relating to the pertinent rose. But it is difficult to restrain oneself sometimes - we go enthusiastically overboard in our love for roses.
Reply #16 of 15 posted 3 days ago by Hamanasu
That makes sense. I tried to remove the irrelevant posts but I’m afraid all I seemed to achieve was make the original (and relevant) one disappear — all the others are still there and won’t go away. I suspect a glitch in how the delete function operates?
most recent 4 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
It's a very good year for roses in the U.K.
most recent 7 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 7 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
Wow, I've never seen it so purple. Must be your climate and soil conditions.

Here in CA it can look nearly pink.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
You have stronger hotter sunshine, here it is very similar in colour to mauve ramblers like 'Veilchenblau' and 'Bleu Magenta'.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 7 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Oh, no, sorry Robert you are right. I've put a picture of 'Baby Faurax' in the 'Mr Bluebird' profile by mistake. It has now been reassigned, thank you for pointing it out.
most recent 9 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 14 JUL 15 by Patricia Routley
It is feasible that Nancy Lindsay brought back this rose from Persia between 1935-1939. Was she the person who named it 'Pompon des Princes' and did Graham Stuart Thomas rename it 'Ispahan'?
Reply #1 of 5 posted 23 JUL 16 by Hardy
I've read that the book, 'Rosen - die große Enzyklopädie,' states that it was brought to England by Norah Lindsay, but don't have that book, can't vouch for its alleged contents, and wonder about it giving credit to the wrong Lindsay. Google Books informs me that GST mentions it as Ispahan, Rose d'Isfahan, and Pompon des Princes on p. 157 of 'The Old Shrub Roses' (1955), but I gather that no origin is specified there. Since he credits Nancy Lindsay when mentioning Rose de Rescht, Gloire de Guilan, etc., I'd wonder at his not mentioning her in relation to Ispahan.
<edited to update>
Pages 143-8 of GST's 'Cuttings from My Garden Notebook' have much to say about Nancy Lindsay and her roses, and the relevant points I noticed were:
She felt at perfect liberty to name found roses which she could not identify, though all but a few were later identified by others as already known and named cultivars. (I just added a comment at 'Empress Josephine' giving GST's main quote on the subject.)

She was very jealous and protective of her roses, and flew into a rage when she discovered that GST had obtained budwood of them from Kew, as she had let Kew have them only because she had been unable to care for them for a while, and believed she had an agreement that Kew would not share them with anyone. While she didn't feel too strongly about garden cultivars she found in cities, like Rose de Rescht and Gloire de Guilan, she was livid that Rose d'Hivers had been shared. She said that she'd risked her life in the wilds of Persia to get it, and considered it her very personal baby. She also did not consider its name to be final; she said that before Kew shared it, "I ought to have had stock of it first, and had it named and shown it myself... I'd always hoped that my rose would be named after me..." In her rant against Kew, she says she'd agreed "that none would be passed on until they had been named, shown and recorded and I'd given my permission." (GST consequently removed Rose d'Hivers from commerce, and unless Kew still has Sharastanek, her jealous guarding of her roses may have resulted in its extinction.)

All this leads me to believe that the names attached to NL 292 'Ispahan,' NL 465 'Sharastanek,' NL 849 'Rose de Rescht,' NL 1001 'Gloire de Guilan,' and NL 1409 'Rose d'Hivers' were tentative working names. Apparently Rose d'Hivers was supposed to be named 'Nancy Lindsay,' so 'Pompon des Princes' may have been what she finally chose for NL 292. Other than 'Sharastanek,' whose etymology escapes me, all of the names first used are descriptive, i.e., named after the city or province where they were found, or from the fact that Rose d'Hivers was dried for use in winter. I suspect that what we now know as Ispahan may not have had that name (or Pompon des Princes) before the 1940s, and while 'Mogul Temple Rose of Persia' points to the country of origin, I'm left wondering what it was called in Farsi or Arabic before Lindsay collected it and stuck her tag on it. Alas that we seem to have no Iranian rosarians here.
Reply #2 of 5 posted 24 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
Thank you so much Hardy.
It was Nancy, and not her mother, Norah, who bought back the roses.
We actually have that reference under 'Ispahan' centifolia. As the Ispahan' damask also has references to centifolia, I feel that perhaps these two files should be merged. But I would need to do more homework on this and take any advice.....
I actually found the 1967 and 1974 references (in the damask file) of interest. ....and the 1829 one as well.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 25 JUL 16 by Patricia Routley
No advice forthcoming from anyone, so despite the differences of class in the two files, I have moved any reference of a double rose to the damask 'Ispahan' file, leaving references to a single rose in the centifolia 'Ispahan' file. They are probably the same rose, but I am a little cautious.

Probably the reason that Mr. Thomas did not mention Nancy in relation to 'Ispahan', was that for once, she gave it a responsible name and one that it had been known by beforehand (as well as adding her study number N.L. 292).

Taking a shortcut here - Virginia, does the 1877 p84 reference belong in the single 'Ispahan' centifolia file?
Reply #4 of 5 posted 9 days ago by Hamanasu
Hello, Norah Lindsay wrote of the moss rose of Ispahan as early as 1929. In her article ‘Roses of Long Ago’ she describes it very definitely as being mossed (3 times in a single line): ‘... the moss rose, ‘les roses d’Ispahan dans leurs gaines de mousse’. Those furry buds...’
Also, her daughter Nancy appears to have gone to Persia and brought back roses from there between 1935 and 1939. (This is all based on this source:,%20Allyson%20Hayward,%20Rosa%20Mundi,%20Vol.%2023,%20No.%202,%202009%20-%202010_djvu.txt)
Is it not possible, then, that the centifolia Ispahan was an old moss rose known in France (and to Norah), and different from the the damascena Ispahan known to us, which shows no mossing? And assuming Nancy introduced the damascena Ispahan from Persia, it seems unlikely it was she who named it Ispahan, knowing (as she must have done) that her mother’s favourite rose was a muscosa by the name of Ispahan (Norah described it as ‘the most lovable of all roses’).
As to Sharastanek, could this be Quatre Saisons (or Trigintipetala)? The source mentioned above quotes two descriptions by Nancy, one frome her own catalogue and one from a letter she wrote to Vita Sackville-West. The descriptions diverge in the flower colour they give, but the inconsistency disappears if the catalogue refers to the bud (which can approximate red in quatre saisons) and the letter to the fully open flower (which can fade to pale pink). Otherwise the descriptions seem consistent with Quatre Saisons (grey-green leaves, small clusters of double flowers, delicious and intoxicating scent, etc). The main feature that may give Sharastanek away as Quatre Saisons, though, is the description, in the letter to Vita, of the “lovely pointed buds with long ferny sepals”. (Intriguingly, Nancy also reported to Vita that she found the rose in an area now completely deserted, famed to have once been the place where one of Alexander the Great’s generals settled and built his residence, so that the rose might have been introduced by him; which tallies with the idea that Quatre Saisons has been known since Graeco-Roman times). Also, if Sharastanek is Quatre Saisons, it would explain why Sharastanek has, unlike Lindsay’s other introductions, disappeared from commerce as a distinct variety in its own right. Yes, a lot of speculation, but...
Reply #5 of 5 posted 9 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Whatever Ms (Nancy) Lindsay says should be taken with a pinch of salt.
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