SEEDS OUTSIDE THE HIP
(Part Three)


We have reached our last section on “External Seeds” or as the American Rose Hybridizers Association calls this phenomenon, “Exogenous Seeds”, and ran an article in their American Rose Hybridizers Association Newsletter Vol. XLVI No. 3/4 2015, titled “What to Do About Exogenous Seeds”.

A little rehash of the first and second article, what causes this phenomenon to occur and will it impact on the germination of the seeds, was there any rhyme or reason for this occurring and will this phenomenon affect my crosses?

On all occasions that I have seen, only a small number of each rose shows signs of this
phenomenon occurring, not the whole plant, “Peace” has a ratio of about 50% of the hips
affected, whilst “The Golden Child”, has a much smaller occurrence, initially, interestingly,
this phenomenon occurred on both cross pollinated and open pollinated hips. I initially
though, seeds are pushed outside of the hip at the commencement of the hips
development, this was the case for approximately the first 12 weeks, but as the hip
continued to develop, more seeds were forced externally as they continue to grow and
some are forced outside of the hip as each seed increases in size.

The following roses were selected for no other reason, except they were growing in my garden, or close to me, and is stated to that affect.

‘Peace” has large, cupped flowers with a high-centred form and an average diameter of 15 cm. The durable flowers are very full, with 40 to 43 petals. The vigorous shrub grows 120 to 200 cm high and 90 to 125 cm wide.

‘The Golden Child” Medium, floribunda form and an average diameter of 8 cm. The durable flowers are full, with 26 to 40 petals, borne mostly solitary, in small clusters bloom form. The vigorous shrub grows 120 to 1500 cm high and 170 to 200 cm wide.

“Joyce Abounding” ‘Joyce Abounding’ is a Mini-Flora, Miniature, and an average diameter of 5 cm. The flowers are very full, with 26 to 40 petals, in small clusters bloom form. The shrub grows to a height of up to 50 cm, 90 to 125 cm wide. [Note: My research indicated that even the largest of the hips within the test area, either, cross pollinated or open pollinated, failed to develop any external seeds.

“Iceberg” is a modern cluster-flowered floribunda rose cultivar, and blooms are about 5 cm in diameter and have 25 to 35 petals. They grow in clusters on long stems. Buds are long and pointed. The vigorous shrub grows 1.2 meters high and 1 meter wide.
As I do not have an “Iceberg” in my collection, the bushes I conducted my research was from a neighbours garden, although outside the controlled environment of my backyard, my research showed that even the largest of the hips within the test area failed to develop any external seeds. The roses I conducted my research on were open pollinated only, and displayed no signs of the “External Seeds”, phenomenon.

“Olde Fragrance” has medium, cupped flowers with a high-centred form and an average diameter of 14 cm. The durable flowers are very full, with 26 to 40 petals. The vigorous shrub grows 150cm high and 120 cm wide.
I do not have an “Olde Fragrance” in my collection, but was given the information for my research by Richard Walsh from his garden and experience with this rose. The following is, in part, what Richard sent to me.
I can't remember if ALL hips displayed External Seeds, but certainly the ones in question did, and if not all seeds, then the majority.

Conclusion:
My conclusion is not scientifically supported, nor is it academically supported, and the following are the findings that have been achieved by watching, measuring and taking notes and most importantly, watching the roses grow through each of the breeding cycle.

i. My findings, indicates that this phenomenon, is more likely to occur in species of roses that would normally produce physically larger seeds, and therefore larger hips. All the study subjects that displayed signs of the having being effected by the “External Seeds”, phenomenon, were flowers that had physically larger flowers. [My research did not prove that only roses that are physically larger, will be effected, but it does show that they are more likely to be effected by this phenomenon].[I should have conducted the same test using “Governor Macquarie”, that should have proven that point].
ii. The phenomenon, of seeds forming outside the hip has no rhyme or reason for its
occurrence.
iii. It seems, that this phenomenon, whilst it may affect a number of hips on a plant, rarely affect all the hips contained on the plant.
iv. Any external seed will proceed to germination at/or better than the rate of all of the other seeds.
v. External seeds should not be treated with any difference than any other seed from the hip.

My conclusions, is that this phenomenon, does not impacts on seed development, and they are as likely to succeed to germination, as of those not affected by this phenomenon.

I hope I have answered some questions and helped in some way.


Gary Wootton

Continued:

Statistical Information Cross Pollenated:
All records were taken up to and including the stratification stage of the breeding cycle, on hips that were cross breed, on the above mother bush, this test produced 31internal seeds from the hip. I thought it advisable to test them for fertility, as detailed in the Statistical Information of “Peace”, above; of the 31seeds, 6 floated and were discarded.
This test also produced 8 external seeds from the hip. I also tested them for fertility, as detailed above; of the 8 seeds, only 1 floated and was therefore discarded.
The normal stratification procedures, as detailed in the ‘Rose Breeders’ Forum’, was employed and the seeds placed into the refrigerator.
Statistical Information Open Pollenated:
All records were taken up to and including the stratification stage of the breeding cycle, on hips that were open pollenated, on the above mother bush, this test produced 33 internal seeds from the hip. I thought it advisable to test them for fertility, as detailed in the Statistical Information of “Peace”, above; of the 33 seeds, 5 floated and were discarded.
This test also produced 14 external seeds from the hip. I also tested them for fertility, as detailed above; of the 14 seeds, only 3 floated and were therefore discarded.
The normal stratification procedures, as detailed in the ‘Rose Breeders’ Forum’, was employed and the seeds placed into the refrigerator.

Joyce Abounding:
“Joyce Abounding” the hips on this bush were cross pollinated only, but a test number were latter, left for open pollination. The cross pollination was with “The Golden Child”. [Note: “The Golden Child” was the donor rose for this year’s cross pollination and all crosses were taken from this donor and then crossed back to the donor, in most cases.]
The hips on this bush were less effected, with none of the crossed hips, having the “External Seeds”, phenomenon. The hips that were left for open pollination showed no signs of developing the “External Seeds”, phenomenon.
Initially, it was not my intention to allow “Joyce Abounding” to go to open pollination, however for the purpose of this research and for impartiality, I relented and allowed open pollination to occur.
My research indicated that even the largest of the hips within the test area, either, cross pollinated or open pollinated, failed to develop any external seeds.
Description:
‘Joyce Abounding’ is a Mini-Flora, Miniature, and an average diameter of 5 cm. The flowers are very full, with 26 to 40 petals, in small clusters bloom form. The shrub grows to a height of up to 50 cm, 90 to 125 cm wide.
Statistical Information:
All records were taken up to and including the stratification stage of the breeding cycle, with a hip that has grown on the above mother bush, this test produced 34 seeds from the hip. I thought it advisable to test them for fertility, as detailed in the Statistical Information of “Peace”, above; of the 34 seeds, 10 floated and were discarded.
The normal stratification procedures, as detailed in the ‘Rose Breeders’ Forum’, was employed and the seeds placed into the refrigerator.

Iceberg:
As I do not have an “Iceberg” in my collection, the bushes I conducted my research was from a neighbours garden, although outside the controlled environment of my backyard, my research showed that even the largest of the hips within the test area failed to develop any external seeds. The roses I conducted my research on were open pollinated only, and displayed no signs of the “External Seeds”, phenomenon.
Description:
Iceberg is a modern cluster-flowered floribunda rose cultivar, and blooms are about 5 cm in diameter and have 25 to 35 petals. They grow in clusters on long stems. Buds are long and pointed. The vigorous shrub grows 1.2 meters high and 1 meter wide.
Statistical Information:
All records were taken on plants that were not in my garden and therefore out of my control, however, I did note that it did not matter how big each hip became [the hips were of varying sizes], none of them displayed any signs of the “External Seeds”, phenomenon.

External Source:
I was also given a copy of the following from Richard Walsh, from his experiences with a rose by the name of “Olde Fragrance” and the “External Seeds”, phenomenon.

Olde Fragrance:
I do not have an “Olde Fragrance” in my collection, but was given the information for my research by Richard Walsh from his garden and experience with this rose. The following is, in part, what Richard sent to me.
I can't remember if ALL hips displayed External Seeds, but certainly the ones in question did, and if not all seeds, then the majority.
The hips were pollinated with Playboy, to look at contrasting colours, flower types and countries of origin, a German and a Scottish rose, a very full HT and an almost single Floribunda, a basic pink and a yellow/orange blend. I can't recall allowing any open pollinated hips to develop, so can't comment on that.
Description:
Medium, cupped flowers with a high-centred form and an average diameter of 14 cm. The durable flowers are very full, with 26 to 40 petals. The vigorous shrub grows 150cm high and 120 cm wide.

Conclusion:
My conclusion is not scientifically supported, nor is it academically supported, and the following are the findings that have been achieved by watching, measuring and taking notes and most importantly, watching the roses grow through each of the breeding cycle.
1. The phenomenon, of seeds forming outside the hip has no rhyme or reason for its occurrence.
2. It seems, that this phenomenon, whilst it may affect a number of hips on a plant, rarely affect all the hips contained on the plant.
3. As mentioned earlier, I initially though, seeds are pushed outside of the hip at the commencement of the hips development, this was the case for approximately the first 12 weeks, but as the hip continued to develop, more seeds were forced externally as they continue to grow and some are forced outside of the hip as each seed increases in size.
4. My findings, although, not scientifically supported, indicates that this phenomenon, is more likely to occur in species of roses that would normally produce physically larger seeds, and therefore larger hips. All the study subjects, [which is not an all-encompassing amount, by any means] that displayed signs of the having being effected by the “External Seeds”, phenomenon, were flowers that had physically larger flowers. [My research did not prove that only roses that are physically larger, will be effected, but it does show that they are more likely to be effected by this phenomenon]
5. Some views from the American Rose Hybridizers that support my findings, on this subject:
a. from one of Americas consulting Master Rosarian from the Rocky Mountains Region USA with over 40 years of experience growing roses. He said that some of the big seed producers force some of the seeds to the outside, he was delighted to say that I must have good seed producers on my hands, and that when the seeds start coming out the top of the rose hips, it is because they are simply producing more seeds than the little hip can contain inside. This is a very good thing in terms of seed production.
My conclusions, are only taken over the ripening stage and including the stratification stage of the rose breeding cycle.

Gary Wootton

SEEDS OUTSIDE THE HIP
(Part Two)


A little rehash of the first article on this phenomenon, started in the following manner, I had just conducted my first, for this year, cross pollination, the two roses I have chosen are “The Golden Child” and “Peace” as the hip has started to form on both of the roses, I noticed that the seeds seem to be forming externally, I wondered is there any rhyme or reason for this occurring and will this phenomenon affect my crosses?

It is interesting that “Peace” was pollinated from “The Golden Child”, but, “The Golden
Child” was pollinated from another rose. [Note: On all occasions that I have seen, only a
small number of each rose shows signs of this phenomenon occurring, not the whole
plant, “Peace” has a ratio of about 50% of the hips affected, whilst “The Golden Child”,
has a much smaller occurrence, initially, interestingly, this phenomenon occurred on
both cross pollinated and open pollinated hips].[ Note: I initially though, seeds are
pushed outside of the hip at the commencement of the hips development, this was the
case for approximately the first 12 weeks, but as the hip continued to develop, more
seeds were forced externally as they continue to grow and some are forced outside of
the hip as each seed increases in size.
Let’s look at how things went as I moved through the next stage of the rose breeding cycle. I will look at the progress of each rose that has been touched with the “External Seeds”, phenomenon. As well as looking at both the hips that were cross pollinated and those that were open pollenated, (if left for open pollination). The following are the roses I have use for this research and the findings attached to them. The following roses were selected for no other reason, except they were growing in my garden, or close to me, and is stated to that affect.
Peace:
“Peace” was only cross pollinated with the “The Golden Child”, the hips on this bush were effected by less than 50%, having the “External Seeds”, phenomenon. Whilst, all the hips were cross pollinated from the same donor rose not all hips showed signs of developing the seeds externally of the hip.
Description:
‘Peace” has large, cupped flowers with a high-centred form and an average diameter of 15 cm. The durable flowers are very full, with 40 to 43 petals. The vigorous shrub grows 120 to 200 cm high and 90 to 125 cm wide.
Statistical Information:
All records were taken up to and including the stratification stage of the breeding cycle, with a hip that has grown on the above mother bush, this test produced 15 seeds from the hip. I thought it advisable to test them for fertility, as follows; drop each seed into a container of water. Those that sink should be the viable ones. It is as well to ensure that there is no extraneous flesh or bubbles adhering to the floating seed, as this can give a false reading. The floaters can be eventually planted, of course, if there is room in the seed bed, but it is a good idea to separate them so that an accurate percentage check can be taken on the ones that germinate. [Note: as is my normal practice, I always jettison all the floaters].
This test also produced 8 external seeds from the hip. I also tested them for fertility, as detailed above; of the 8 seeds, 4 floated and were therefore discarded.
The normal stratification procedures, as detailed in the ‘Rose Breeders’ Forum’, was employed and the seeds placed into the refrigerator.
[Note: Being new to the breeding fraternity, I am not sure if the following is a characteristic of Peace, but I found a compacted fleshy extrusion in the centre of the hip, which by the look of it, it could have been the cause of the seeds to be forced externally].

The Golden Child:
“The Golden Child” the hips on this bush were both, cross pollinated and were left for open pollination, the cross pollination was with “Victoria Gold”. The hips on this bush were less effected, only about 5%, having the “External Seeds”, phenomenon. [This figure increased slightly during the growing period, which would indicate that the seeds may be, pushed outwards throughout the growing cycle].
Description:
Medium, floribunda form and an average diameter of 8 cm. The durable flowers are full, with 26 to 40 petals, borne mostly solitary, in small clusters bloom form. The vigorous shrub grows 120 to 1500 cm high and 170 to 200 cm wide.

SEEDS OUTSIDE THE HIP

I have just conducted my first, for this year, cross pollination, the two roses I have chosen are “The Golden Child” and “Peace” as the hip has started to form on both of the roses, I noticed that the seeds seem to be forming externally, I wondered is there any rhyme or reason for this occurring ?

In some of the roses the external seed is more prominent, as is shown, the left hand hip is not as dramatic as the right hand hip.
The hip on the left being “The Golden Child” and the hip on the right being “Peace”.

It is interesting that “Peace” was pollinated from “The Golden Child”, but, “The Golden Child” was pollinated from another rose. [ Note: on all occasions that I have seen only a few of each roses shows signs of this phenomenon occurring, not the whole plant, “Peace” has a ratio of about 50% of the hips affected, whilst “The Golden Child”, has a much smaller occurrence, interestingly, this phenomenon occurred on both cross pollinated and open pollinated hips].

I thought this is a bit strange, and I remembered that Richard had said that the above can occur in roses.
So, I thought I would do some research into this strange phenomenon. I searched the internet and the only response I could locate was from a “Stan the Rose Man” a consulting Master Rosarian from the Rocky Mountains Region USA with over 40 years of experience growing roses.
He said that some of the big seed producers force some of the seeds to the outside, he was delighted to say that I must have good seed producers on my hands, and that when the seeds start coming out the top of the rose hips, it is because they are simply producing more seeds than the little hip can contain inside. This is a very good thing in terms of seed production. It can also be a bad thing in that they may attract the eye of hungry birds and can disappear quickly as the birds love to feast upon them for all the nourishment they hold. He recommend covering the hips with some cheese cloth to help protect them from the birds while they finish ripening and going to their dry state.
I was also give a copy of the following by Richard the title of the article was:
“What to Do About Exogenous Seeds” and it was in the American Rose Hybridizers Association Newsletter Vol. XLVI No. 3/4 2015, and contained posts from readers. [Thank you Richard]

There have been several postings regarding exogenous seeds but I don’t see a definitive answer as to what, if anything, should be done with them.
I have several varieties that I am excited to see has produced many hips, but it appears that most, if not all the seeds are on the outside of the hips. Has anyone determined if the germination rate of exogenous seeds is different than those that are grown inside the hip? [I shall be doing that count and will pass on any findings in another Forum.] Sun burning, and drying out were some issues that have been raised. Perhaps one method of predicting exogenous seeds may have something to do with the shape/structure of the receptacle of the bloom in addition to the number and size of the seed. I have noticed that with many of my seed parents with receptacles that are flat, as opposed to being cup shaped, exogenous seeds are common. I am interested to see if others have also noticed the shape differences in those that produce exogenous seeds and those that do not.
[Note: So far, what I have seen the above does not seem to be the case.]
I always thought this was like stuffing 10 pounds anything, into a 5-pound bag. For any rose that we grow, as far as I can recall the hips are about the same size regardless of the number of seeds in there. We never separated them or treated them any different—just stratified them all and planted them. Never kept any stats to check to see if there is any difference.
[Note: I think the above post is probably the closest to the mark]


I will let you know how things go as I move towards the next stage.
Note: In the two photographs above, you will notice that the Sepals have been removed, this is simply for identification purposes, and can be discussed in another Forum.

Gary Wootton