HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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most recent 17 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 26 JAN by Patricia Routley
Isn't R. Multiflora nana single?
Reply #1 of 12 posted 27 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
The variety often sold by seed companies, here in the U.K., as 'Garden Party' can be single or semi-double from deep pink to white.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 27 JAN by Patricia Routley
Yes. Rosaplant, I believe your photo should removed out of R. multiflora nana .... and into Rosa multiflora nana perpetua 'Garden Party'. Would you like us to do this or are you happy to move it?
Reply #3 of 12 posted 27 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
The picture in Roger Phillips rose book is of a single white.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 29 JAN by Rosaplant
Hello Patricia and Andrew,
Thank you for this discussion.
Take a look here, I bought this rose in a very good, french nursery - Loubert, who specialises in rare roses and species.,3.html?recherche=rosa+multiflora+nana
On the picture there it looks like ours. 'Garden Party' is pink more or less and this rose is alwayes pure white.
Let me dive in our library, maybe I will find something, it's very interesting issue :)

Reply #5 of 12 posted 29 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
Greetings Kamila,

I think the plant in the picture from Roses Loubert looks even more like what is being sold as 'Garden Party'!

Graham Stuart Thomas, Climbing Roses Old and New. 1965 edition, p41:

MULTIFLORA NANA. I have found no record of its origin, but it is available from seedsmen as R. multiflora polyantha or R. carteri, flowering in two months or so from date of sowing the seeds. A pretty, dwarf, bushy mutant or hybrid, not climbing, bearing sprays of palest pink or creamy-white single blooms all the growing season, followed by tiny red heps. The white is usually taller than the pink; both are sweetly scented.

Roger Phillips and Martin Rix, Roses. 1988 edition, p37

Rosa multiflora VAR. nana A dwarf form of R. multiflora, making a low bush up to 0.8m high, perpetual flowering, either pale pink or white, Graham Thomas records that this rose can flower in two months from seed. It is possibly a dwarf, recurrent-flowering mutant of r. multiflora, in the same way that the perpetual China roses are dwarf mutants of the wild climber.

Charles Marden Firch, The Complete Book of Miniature Roses. 1977, p17.

R. multiflora -- Some minatures inherit vigor and multiflowered sprays from Rosa multiflora, usually through the hybrid polyantha shrub 'Cecile Brunner' an old rose introduced in 1881. For example, miniature 'Cinderella' is 'Cecile Brunner' X 'Tom Thumb'; and 'Baby Betsy McCall' is 'Cecile Brunner' X 'Rosy Jewel'; both hybrids show multiflowered sprays characteristic of the multiflora rose species. 'Pink Clouds'. a primary hybrid of miniature 'Oakington Ruby' X R. multiflora is used at Sequoia Miniature Rosa Nursery as understock for their mini tree roses. Older books list R. multiflora as R. polyantha. An interesting strain of R. multiflora is offered as R. multiflora nana in some seed catalogues, such as Geo. W. Park Company. The seed produces charming bushy mini roses, 8 to 15 inches tall, with clusters of white to deep pink flowers, usually single but some with almost double petals.

and p57.

ROSA MULTIFLORA NANA is a dwarf strain of the common species multiflora rose so often used as a living fence. Seeds of R. multiflora nana germinate easily and soon produce bushy plants with a spring display of single to almost double fragrant flowers, white to dark pink. This is fun to grow but is inferior to modern hybrids in its ability to last and in its blooming season.

Sean McCann, Miniature Roses For Home and Garden. 1985, p69.

Finally there is another area of propagation -- growing miniatures from seed. the raising of roses from your own seeds is discussed in Chapter 10 on hybridising but frequently 'miniature rose seeds' are offered in catalogues from general nurseries. These are not really seeds from miniature roses but come from the Fairy Rose, or R. multiflora nana, and the results will be disappointing in most cases. The seeds are very fertile but the plants they produce are seldom in the miniature class (though a couple of varieties that have won prizes throughout the world were a result of these seeds). For fun, plant some of the seeds but don't expect too much. It is much better to do some hybridising yourself using the true miniature roses.

and there is more...
Reply #6 of 12 posted 29 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
William Robinson, THE ENGLISH FLOWER GARDEN. Fifth Edition, June 1896. p.764.

POLYANTHA ROSES. -- These are often of a dwarf bushy habit, rarely exceeding a foot in height. The flowers are naturally very small, but delightfully fragrant. They are equally as hardy as the Tea Roses. They do well grown in pots in ordinary or unheated greenhouses, and make capital window-plants, providing they have proper attention. Rather small pots are best, and a good-sized plant may be grown in one 5 in. in diameter. A mixture of sandy loam and decayed cow-manure suits them well, and is advisable to repot in the summer, immediately after the plants have flowered. After repotting, stand them in a sunny position outdoors until the end of September, when return them to a cool airy position in a greenhouse or frame, where they may remain at rest all the winter.
    What pruning is required should be done early in spring, just previous to starting the plants into growth, and it consists in cutting the shoots back to within two or three buds of their base. Comparatively little water will be necessary during the winter, but give more in summer, and when showing bloom occasional doses of weak liquid manure. Other many flowered or Polyantha Roses are similar, or, at least, some varieties or them, and should be extensively grown in pots by amateurs.
    They are, however, hardier than the Fairy Roses, robust in growth. Besides being grown in pots they make charming masses in beds or borders, and are useful for edging Rose-beds. Some nurserymen make a speciality of these Roses, growing them as small standards in pots, and in this manner they are effective when laden with bloom. Among the best varieties are Anne Marie de Montravel, pure white, very free; Little Dot, soft pink; Mingnonette, pale rose, very pretty; Perle d'Or, nankeen-yellow; Paquette, white; Blanche Rebatel; Clothhilde Soupert; Georges Pernet; Gloire de Polyantha; Golden Fairy; Madame Allergatiere; Marie Pare; Max Singer; Souvenir d'E. Chatelaine.
    There is some danger in taking up seriously new classes of Roses of this kind, because there are very few that are not inferior in beauty to the lovely Tea and other roses that are now obtainable. Roses that have not the finest forms and are unfit for cutting for the house, are likely to take a back place, and really deserve it.

Kamila, my apologies for people not using the metric system, 1 inch = 2.54 centimetres. In my opinion, I think that the original dwarf sport of Rosa multiflora might have been white and single just like the parent. However, over the years people have been sowing open pollenated seed and this has become "contaminated" by different coloured and shaped roses. Some of the plants offered I would say are definitely hybrids:
In the U.K. Thompson & Morgan offer 'Garden Party' too with a picture identical to the one posted  by José Rojas in the 'Garden Party' profile. These are the seeds I sowed three years ago and from 25 seeds I had 100% germination; 25 roses for €1.14! The colours range from white to dark pink and single to semi-double and they varied in growth from a 15cm runt with tiny distorted flowers to a very pretty 0.5 metres with semi double pink flowers in the style of 'Rouletii' or 'Sweet Fairy'. This makes a very attractive little bush throwing up spray after spray of flowers right until the end of autumn. I will photograph some of the different types this summer. There was one with very dark single flowers that is darker and redder in real life than the photograph shows:
and I am germinating seeds from this right now and will take cuttings. Maybe the plant that Loubert offers a very good form, it looks a beautiful flower but is not pure R. multiflora nana?

Best wishes, Andrew.

P.s All my plants flowered within 3 months of germination. I read somewhere but can not recall the reference that flower buds can be seen forming whilst the seedling is still at the cotyledon stage.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 29 JAN by Rosaplant
Dear Andrew,

Thanks a lot for your efforts! Look also what I have found in book 'Encyclopedia of Old roses" from Francois Joyaux from 2008. I have a german version, and here is what is written:

Page 254:
'Nana' - von dieser Rose heißt es, sie sei entweder eine Hybride von R.multiflora mit einer Chinarose oder eine 1891 von Leonard Lille (aus Villeurbanne) selektierte Mutation. Dies ist keine Kletterrose, sonder ein etwa 80 cm hoher Strauch mit einfachen oder halbgefüllten, weißen oder rosa Blüten. Gehandelt wird sie überwiegend als 'Rose multiflore naine remontante' ("öfterblühende Zwergmultiflora:).

Let me translate:
'Nana' - about this rose it is said that it can be a hybride from R.multiflora and Chinesse rose, or it is selected mutation from 1891 from Leonard Lille. This is not a climber but shrub about 80 cm of hight with single OR semi double flowers which can be white or pink. On the market it is often sold as 'Rose multiflore naine remontante'.

so the author says, that according to him Rosa multiflora 'Nana' = Multiflore nain remontant which is nothing else but .. 'Garden Party'.

It is confusing, seems like french rose specilaists take those two roses as one.

Reply #8 of 12 posted 29 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
I'm still not totally convinced that a sport would be quite so variable.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 16 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Roy Genders, Miniature Roses. Pub. 1960. Blandford Press, London.
p. 25-6


Seed of the perpetual flowering or fairy rose is sold under the name or R. polyantha nana multiflora and at a 1s 6d packet will germinate about a dozen plants. True, these will not be true to name, but they will of similar habit to the named varieties, varying in height from about 8-12 in. In most cases the plants will not be quite as dwarf and compact as where named varieties have been propagated from cuttings, for it must be remembered that these plants of extremely dwarf habit are the result of careful breeding and selection. ...

[F.Y.I., 1s 6s is one shilling six pence worth about 7 1/2 new pence or about £2.50 or €2.85 at today's prices.]
Reply #10 of 12 posted 17 FEB by Patricia Routley
I am quite out of my depth here, but this is what I see. We have files for:

R. multiflora nana. Unknown French breeder c1875 (There is no ref to back up this date)

Plate-Bande Leonard Lille 1887
syn R. polyantha 'nana'

R. multiflora nana perpetua 'Garden Party' Leonard Lille 1891
syn R. multiflora var. nana (hort)
syn Multiflora nana perpetuelle
syn Multiflora nana remontant
syn multiflora nain remontant
syn Nana

It seems to me that all three files should be merged with the date being 1887 but I am very happy to take advice. As it is now, the three files seem confusing.

I have moved three references for R. Polyantha nana out of the Plate-Bande file and into the R. Multiflora nana perpetua 'Garden Party file because, despite what the authors called it, it was obvious they were talking about the latter rose with its seedling propensities.

I think we should add another synonym of R. Carteri (hort) as the 2006 ref and G. S. Thomas mentions this synonym.


p.s. I suspect that the parent of this/these roses might have been
R. Polyantha Siebold & Zucc. <1865
syn R. Polyantha
syn Polyantha alba plena
syn Polyantha alba plena sarmentosa
syn R. Multiflora alba plena
syn R. Multiflora flore-pleno
Reply #11 of 12 posted 17 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
This is what I believe is happening.
Rosa multiflora nana was a dwarf sport of Rosa multiflora introduced c.1875 in France. It was around 30cm high and had single white flowers, just like a miniature version of Rosa multiflora, as the majority of pictures show. Nurseries started growing open pollenated seedlings and began introducing all sorts of different colours and singles and doubles. Léonard Lille (France, 1891) for example.
I do not think a sport is usually this variable and if seedlings had been grown from self-pollenated flowers it would have remained white and single. A sport should be propagated vegetatively. It is like the seedlings you raised from 'Baby Faurax'. If 'Baby Tooth' and all the odds and sods and waifs and strays were still being called 'Baby Faurax'.
Rosaplant has a very nice and pretty form of Rosa multiflora nana but it should be grown as Rosa multiflora nana 'Insert Name Here' and being propagated by cuttings or budding.
Now I'm well out of my depth here too!
Reply #12 of 12 posted 17 FEB by Andrew from Dolton
Interesting that Thomas mentioned R. carteri (hort), there is a seed company called Carters.
I am not trying to diminish Rosaplant's rose in anyway, it is a lovely rose but I don't think it should be called just plain R. multiflora nana.

This is interesting too:
most recent 1 FEB HIDE POSTS
Initial post 1 FEB by Rosaplant
Sold as Elise
Reply #1 of 1 posted 1 FEB by Patricia Routley
Thank you Rosaplant. 'Elise' added.
most recent 1 FEB SHOW ALL
Initial post 26 JAN by Patricia Routley
Rosaplant - I see you also grow 'Grootendorst Supreme'. Can you please tell us the difference between 'Grootendorst Supreme and 'Signe Relander'?
Reply #1 of 6 posted 29 JAN by Rosaplant
Hello Patricia,
Looking at the photos there is almost no diffrence, but when yo grow them you can notice some:
Signe Relander:
- has fragrance ( Grootendorst Supreme not or very delicate)
- is very healthy like typical rugosa ( G.S not alwyes)
- is a nice bush ( G.S is more "messy", shrub is ungraceful)
- flowers are in a bigger clusters then G.S
- in my opinion Signe Relander is a little bit darker than G.S
- in our climate (Poland, 6A USDA) Signe Relander seems to repeat more easily.

There is a very nice book about Rosa rugosa written by Suzanne Verrier. She describes for sure most of avaiable rugosas, and her opinion seems to be very similar to mine. There is also nice sentence about the whole Grootendorst line:
"....writing of another rose, Graham Stuart Thomas spoke of it as "soulless". The Grootendorsts might also be described as "soulless". "

I hope you will this usefull.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 29 JAN by Patricia Routley
Thank you so much for that, Kamila. Really I was looking for someone who grows 'F. J. Grootendorst' as well as 'Signe Relander', and when your photograph of 'Signe Relander' took my eye, I looked up your list of plants and saw you also grew 'Grootendorst Supreme'.

Your mention of 'Signe Relander' being a "nice bush" may be particularly helpful. (Do you have any photos of your bush?) I have a New Zealand friend who has written to me about a rose, possibly 'Signe Relander' and I have been trying to help him. He has said:

"......visited a garden in the Maniototo recently which is high country about an hour from where I live. She saw a rose the owner identified as Signe Relander and was struck by the colour. They grow Signe Relander in the Northern Cemetery collection in Dunedin and she believed this rose was different. I contacted the owner and asked for permission to visit. She is a gardener but not particularly into roses. She said she inherited the rose and was told its identity. It is stunning. A large, healthy five foot bush with foliage to the ground and laden with bloom. Definitely red. I notice from your notes that Poulsens describe it as 'dark red' and F.J.Grootendorst as
'carmine'. It is also described as vigorous and always in flower. Our plants of Grootendorst are well finished flowering now. I have never managed to grow Grootendorst as well as the rose I saw and yet the Maniototo has a much harsher climate than ours. It is colder, windier and drier than here."

It just may be that the plants in the Dunedin cemetery with either 'F. J. Grootendorst' or 'Grootendorst Supreme' and the Maniototo rose may well be 'Signe Relander'. At least, they will have a little more to go on now with the identification search. (Isn't this site just wonderful? Here we are with a person from Poland helping a person from Australia, who is helping a person from New Zealand trying to identify a rose.)
My regards,
Reply #3 of 6 posted 30 JAN by Rosaplant
Hello Patricia,

This is stunning story :) We talk about the same roses living ot the other side of the world.
I would risk opinion then if the shrub is very dense, vigorous and healthy then it is 'Signe Relander'. I am aware that those two varieties are very similar, especially when they are small in pots - there is a very big chance that they were misslabeled many times during growing, selling etc.
I will look for a photo of the whole bush of 'Signe Relander', maybe I will find something. I can send you also scans from this book which I mentioned about Rugosa. Please contact me on my e-mail then:

Reply #4 of 6 posted 30 JAN by Patricia Routley
We look forward to your photos one day Kamila. This is a long process, this identifying roses business. One has to wait until you can visit again; until the bush is blooming; until you remember, etc. etc. I have pointed out our Comments to the New Zealand friend and I know he will be thankful for your knowledge. I have Suzanne Verrier's two books (on gallicas and rugosas) and HelpMeFind does have her 1993 reference included for 'Signe Relander'. But I thank you very much for your kind offer.

"Souless". Did Graham Thomas say that? If so, I think he was talking through his hat. I have often picked a cluster of 'Pink Grootendorst' for the table and it is perfectly arranged for a small vase. No florist could do it better than the plant itself. I would pick 'F. J. Grootendorst' too if I hadn't planted the bush so far into the bed, but snakes are a danger in summer. However on my search for more information I did go in and get a couple of clusters. It too is just as beautiful for the table.

(Best to delete your email address from your reply, Kamila as it attracts spam to the site.)
Reply #5 of 6 posted 30 JAN by Andrew from Dolton
I used to grow 'Pink Grootendorst' for employers a few years ago. It was used as a cut flower and very pretty it looked. But as a garden plant it grew about 2m high and wide and rather like 'Carmenetta' looked rather course. Also the older branches had a habit of dying back suddenly. Just ordered Suzanne Verrier's books.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 1 FEB by Rosaplant
Yes Andrew I have noticed the same with F.J Grootendoorst - older branches sometimes die suddenly without any visible reason.
Patricia - I think many depends with this Grootendoorst line from a place where they are grown. Maybe your climate is just better for F.J. ? However, Pink Grootendorst in my opinion is better here in Poland then F.J (which I think I don't like when I have Signe Relander.... ), Pink G. is maybe also not so nice bush, but flowers are beautiful.
Graham Thomas used word 'soulless' to some other rose, Suzanne just used that to describe Grootendorst line ( page 21 in Rosa rugosa from S. Verrier).
most recent 29 JAN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 29 JAN by Rosaplant
This rose is introduced as 'Paragon' which already exists on HMF
Reply #1 of 1 posted 29 JAN by Patricia Routley
Thank you Kamila. Files merged.
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