HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Jeri Jennings
most recent 28 DEC HIDE POSTS
Initial post 26 DEC by Jeri Jennings
I would not not not call this rose pale yellow.

Buff, maybe -- with hints of pink. But it is in no way yellow.
Reply #1 of 20 posted 26 DEC by Patricia Routley
Always good to have as much information as possible with the foundlings. Thanks Jeri. We've changed the colour, however I have noted yellowish centres mentioned in the early references for 'Rubens'.
Reply #2 of 20 posted 26 DEC by Jeri Jennings
It may be one of those things that changes in different environmental conditions.

I certainly didn't see yellow on the open blooms on the mother plant ... I don't know what it will do here. Teas are so danged changeable.

But though it may have some yellow inside, calling it a yellow rose just ain't accurate. I'll buy "buff" though.
Reply #3 of 20 posted 26 DEC by Jeri Jennings
Oh, and we don't know for absolute certain that Hubner is Rubens.
Reply #4 of 20 posted 26 DEC by Patricia Routley
OK. I've changed the last line in the Note too.
Reply #5 of 20 posted 26 DEC by Jeri Jennings
Thanks Darlin'.

For all I know, it may BE Rubens. But there's a fine line there and that's why we always want to retain the provenance and study name(s).

It seems "they" haven't always done that, and it leads to all sorts of confusion.
Reply #6 of 20 posted 26 DEC by Patricia Routley
Danged "they". I've just re-read Tea Roses. Old Roses For Warm Gardens pages on 'Rubens' and it seems they too are not positive that the Australian rose is 'Rubens'.
Reply #7 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Jeri Jennings
Well, I'll be a monkey's uncle. And I suppose "they" based the identification of Hubner Plot as Rubens, based on that?

I'm not surprised. Look at "Grandmother's Hat" with all of her many names.
Reply #8 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Patricia Routley
I don't know who did the catalog for the SHRG (Sacramento's Historic City Cemetery Historic Rose Garden) 2017 Catalog, but apparently the possible identification of 'Rubens' came from that catalog. To me it seems a good guess, but I tried to strike the small and unhealthy plant of the then-labelled 'Laurette' at the Pinjarra Heritage Rose Garden In 1999, 2000 and 2001 and after about three years I had to give up as there was very little plant left. Have you read the Tea Roses pages 176-177 chapter? It says 'Laurette' 1853 was most vigorous and the California rose seems to be a vigorous one.

The only way to be .....almost sure..... is to go to your old California nursery catalogues and just keep adding any references you find to both the HelpMeFind 'Rubens' and 'Laurette' files until things come clear.
Reply #9 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Jeri Jennings
I'll do that.

The plant we collected in the Stockton City Cemetery was vigorous. It was one of the only two plants left in a family plot (the Hubners) had initially had many. (The other living plant is Odorata Rootstock.)

I don't honestly know what clone the Sacramento City Cemetery is selling (they had a Rubens, so I don't know if they kept Hubner). But the plants they're selling are vigorous as all getout.
Reply #10 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Rupert, Kim L.
My Twenty-First Century eyes agree with you, but some of the photos here are what was called "light yellow" in the Nineteenth Century, long before we had Foetida yellows.
Reply #11 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Jeri Jennings
Yes. But none of the blooms I saw were yellow-ish.

So, what I'm saying is, the yellow may be transitory, and/or dependent upon environmental conditions. Even Cori Ann's photos were only marginally yellow. More like a pale buff. And as I said, I never saw that, in the mother plant.

You could say: "Sometimes there is a buff-yellow tone at the center of the bloom."
But I just don't think you can say: "This rose is yellow."

Take "Jesse Hildreth" . . . In some seasons and conditions, there is a marked yellow tone at the center. So much so, that both Jill Perry and I thought of the lost 'Smith's Yellow.'
But the overall picture of the rose is that it is white, occasionally washed pink on the outer petals, sometimes yellow-centered.
Reply #12 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Rupert, Kim L.
Oh, I fully agree with you, and having already seen many which fit well in that category and which were initially proclaimed "yellow", we can see what they grasped as "yellow" and all the proclaimed intensities of yellow. When nothing like it existed before, then suddenly appeared in something new, it was a "break". It is the same with "dazzling scarlet" and "flame". Transitory tones and tints approaching what we now have in more stable abundance.
Reply #13 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Jeri Jennings
Well, sure. They were, after all, in the business of selling roses!

Remember -- I earned my living writing ad copy!
Reply #14 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Margaret Furness
Three-way conversation: We want a rose for the Botanic Gardens that will attract crowds, like for the recent flowering of the Amorphophallus (corpse lily), or the Victoria amazonica in the 19th century.
-People won't queue for an hour to see a rose.
-They did in Japan, for the GM blue rose.
-Was it blue?
Reply #15 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Rupert, Kim L.
No, but that was also a very specific audience. The Japanese aesthetic appreciates the manipulation of Nature. Bonsai, "cubed" produce (growing Asian Pears, melons, etc. in clear Lucite boxes to create cubed pieces of fruit), etc. Plus, giving that sort of a gift, which frequently comes at higher prices (Applause, the GMO "blue rose", sold for upwards of $35 per stem) is felt to express honor and respect for the recipient. I'm not surprised the cue line for the rose introduction was long. That is why Applause was launched in Japan and not in Los Angeles.
Reply #16 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Jeri Jennings

Here . . . It would have been completely ignored.

And the way things are, these days, I don't even know how I would drum up excitement. Well ... given the right audience, an exciting history might stir a bit of excitement, but . . .
Reply #17 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Rupert, Kim L.
"But, it isn't BLUE! What other colors does it come in?"
Reply #18 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Jeri Jennings
"I'd love it if it came in pink."

But just in case you think WE are a small audience, try talking to people who collect/breed Brugmansias. Or Lithops.
Reply #19 of 20 posted 27 DEC by Margaret Furness
If you're interested, the rose I suggested as the best bet for a crowd-puller, was the Lijiang Rd climber. Which isn't in commerce here, flowers only in spring, gets huge, and eats gardeners on ride-on mowers.
Reply #20 of 20 posted 28 DEC by Jeri Jennings
I actually know it well.

I don't have it, but I grow the OTHER one -- which never got to England ... "Phillips & Rix China Climber." I'll have to post it.
most recent 15 SEP HIDE POSTS
Initial post 12 SEP by Jeri Jennings
The study name "George Washington Richardson" should probably be added to synonyms for 'Mlle. de Sombreuil', as its identity appears to be pretty certain.

It was found on the grave of George Washington Richardson, a Northern California blacksmith who died, age 32, in 1896.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 12 SEP by Patricia Routley
Has anybody grown "George Washington Richardson" alongside "Huntington La Biche" or "La Biche (In commerce as)"?
Reply #2 of 6 posted 12 SEP by Jeri Jennings
No. There is little distribution for George Washington Richardson. But everyone here who knows both roses recognizes them as identical.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 14 SEP by Patricia Routley
I suspect that we may end up with many foundling roses in the 'Mlle de Sombreuil' file one day. Whilst HelpMeFind does tell us which name the photographer has selected when the photo is opened, it is not immediately obvious at first glance. I think it will be valuable to have the photos edited with the name of the rose, (or foundling name, whichever is relevant). Would the photographers please insert names for the photos in this file and then I will feel happy to merge "George Washington Richardson". I have added the names to the "George Washington Richardson" file, but it is peak spring here and my garden calls.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 14 SEP by Jeri Jennings
The only photos I am aware of are mine. But I'm not quite sure what I need to do.

Let it rest until you are at a less-busy time! Here, I'm just praying that cooler weather will continue. The plants seem to think it will.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 14 SEP by Patricia Routley
Thanks Jeri. I was probably not clear in my comment. I will rephrase by asking:
Are there any photos in the 'Mlle de Sombreuil' file which were the rose once known as:
• "Huntington La Biche"
• "La Biche (In commerce as)"
If so, which ones please? I believe the "study name" should be included in the photo's description.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 15 SEP by Jeri Jennings
Oh, I see. Likely all of them, since it is STILL in commerce as 'La Biche' despite the fact that most authorities are now in agreement that the rose which was at the Huntington as 'La Biche' is in actual fact 'Mlle. de Sombreuil'.

Let me take a look at the various photos and give you a better answer.
most recent 23 AUG HIDE POSTS
Initial post 23 AUG by Jeri Jennings
A Chinese-speaking friend told me today (8-22-2017) that the name of this rose translates more or less as "Beautiful Damsel":

"SUI...means Chinese dialect...mei ren means people..hence its like "beautiful damsel"...lovely name for a lovely rose..."
most recent 26 MAY HIDE POSTS
Initial post 25 MAY by John P
Hi There,

My name is John, I'm searching for a Cleopatra Rose. It's reddish pink in color with white accents. I've called around 50 growers and had to luck finding one.

We lost our cat, Fuzz Face, whom we often called Fuzzopatra. We're hoping to bury her ashes with a Cleopatra rose as a tribute.

Do any of you have a Cleopatra rose in your garden? If not, do you know anyone who might?

I thank you for any of your time and efforts with this. Have a great day!
Reply #1 of 1 posted 26 MAY by Jeri Jennings
Sorry John -- Don't have it, and don't believe I've ever seen it.

I checked to see if the San Jose Heritage Rose Garden lists it, and they do not.

Best advice would be to try a query on the Gardenweb Rose Forum.
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