HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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billy teabag
most recent today SHOW ALL
Initial post 6 days ago by Marlorena
This rose was not introduced as 'Chianti' but as 'Kashmiri'... it is shown in an old David Austin rose catalogue dated 1968. The price of the rose was then 10s 6d in old UK money, now that would be the princely sum of 52 and a half pence or about 70 cents US...
Reply #1 of 5 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
Marlorena, are you able to find that 1968 reference again?
I have had a 'Chianti' search and found that the American Rose Annual were listing it (as Chianti) in the New Roses of the World in 1968, but with a weird parentage. Actually the parentage varied so much for 'Chianti' that in 2005 I queried the company and got the message that David thought he would have been more likely to use 'Tuscany Superb' rather than 'Tuscany'. These differing parentages included
'Cardinal de Richelieu' x 'Dusky Maiden'
R. macrantha x 'Vanity'
'Dusky Maiden x 'Tuscany'
Reply #2 of 5 posted 3 days ago by Marlorena
Hi Patricia,
Sorry for the delay in getting back... I'll quote below from the catalogue as I'm sure Michael Marriott won't mind me doing that.... I got this information from his Instagram page, which is full of great photos and I noticed he showed a photo of this old catalogue which he obtained and highlighted the changes in names..
Here is a link to Michael's Instagram page if you need to check... the catalogue photos are 9th row down..

Here is what it says for Chianti,... on page 18
''KASHMIRI this beautiful shrub rose is in the same tradition as Constance Spry and although it has received less publicity, it is almost the equal of that rose. The colour is rich wine-red and it has a powerful true rose fragrance. The flowers, which open cupped and reflex later, have a charming formality and are produced with very great freedom on a well-formed shrub. 10/6.''

I presume the names changed the following year with the introduction of his 'English Rose' designation for repeat blooming roses, or whichever year that was, I don't know exactly when the first English Rose term was used, I suppose he felt the new names were more appropriate.

I'll post up the other details for Shropshire Lass on that page..
Reply #3 of 5 posted 2 days ago by billy teabag
There is a great article in the latest (March 2019) 'By Any Other Name'- Remembering David Austin by Charles Quest-Ritson.
I hope it is ok to quote from it here:
"David was careful to conceal the parentages of his roses. Each was carefully recorded in a small notebook that he carried at all times, but the exact details would not be published until a cultivar was well-established in cultivation and he had exhausted its potential for the development of further generations of English roses. He was not above dissimulation: he let it be thought that the pollen parent of his early once-flowering hybrid 'Chianti' was 'Marcel Bourgouin' (other breeders thought it was 'Vanity', Pemberton 1920). In February 1970, he wrote in the RHS Journal that 'Chianti' came from a cross between 'Cardinal de Richelieu' and 'Dusky Maiden'.
Eventually he conceded that its parentage was 'Dusky Maiden' × 'Tuscany'." page 3
Reply #4 of 5 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you for that Marlorena. I had wondered if ‘Kashmiri’ was another seedling from the same hip, but Michael Marriot would certainly know. I have added ‘Kashmiri’ as a synonym for ‘Chianti’, and added the reference. Theoretically I should alter the “Introduced” details, but the database will only accept one name per nursery, so we will leave it as - Introduced as ‘Chianti’.

Thank you too Billy for the Quest-Ritson article. (I had in fact copied the same paragraph to add, but then had a power blackout from all the storms around and so spent the rest of the day out in the garden.) I suspect we might be needing the various articles over the years as we try to identify the Austin roses in the future and will add a few to the breeder’s page as I see them. I like Charles’ polite word “dissimulation”. I would have used another. ‘Marcel Bourgouin’ as a parent of ‘Chianti’ is a newie to me.
Reply #5 of 5 posted today by Nastarana
Is the Quest-Ritson article available on line?
PhotoDiscussion id : 115-785
most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
I think these two photos should be moved to the "George Whatson" file. If Souvenir d'un Ami was indeed the seed parent of Mlle. Claudine Perreau, that casts doubt on the candidates which don't set hips, "George Whatson" included.
Reply #1 of 7 posted 3 days ago by John Hook
The only reference to the possibility that Souv. d'un Ami sets viable seed that I have seen is under Mlle Claudine Perreau refs. this is from Rosenlexicon: Sv. d'un Ami X ?. Personally, I see this an assumed possibility as the colours of the two varieties are similar. No descriptions of Souv d'un Ami that I have come across mention it being used for breeding. If you feel inclined to move or delete these photos please go ahead, I'm sorry that they irritate you
Reply #2 of 7 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
John, other members are unable to move your photos. Only you, or an administrator can do that.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
There are also three distinct seedlings of The Queen/Souvenir de S. A. Prince (Souvenir d'un Ami's white sports) listed.
Reply #4 of 7 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
Thank you. It's not an irritant, just a potential source of confusion.
Reply #5 of 7 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
There's also this 1867 remark in the references here.

"Souvenir d'un Ami and Adam would produce seed of fine quality, from which large and bright rose-coloured varieties might be expected."
Reply #6 of 7 posted 2 days ago by John Hook
I had noticed this already, but again, an impression and not good eneugh to draw conclusions. As far as seed from sports, these by there nature are substantially different to their origin and wouldn't necessarily follow any other characteristics. I won't be continuing with this discussion as I will remove these pictures shortly and will be requesting the removal of all other of my postings on HMF
Reply #7 of 7 posted 2 days ago by billy teabag
I hope you will reconsider John. Your absence will be a great loss to the HMF community.
most recent 11 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 12 days ago by Matt's Northwest Florida Garden
Anyone try Peace on Fortuniana ?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 12 days ago by Patricia Routley
Probably the entire city of Perth, Western Australia, grew ‘Peace’ on Fortuniana.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 11 days ago by billy teabag
Yes - What Patricia said - Fortuniana is the recommended rootstock here in Perth (sandy soils, hot & dry summers, nematodes). I have two plants of 'Peace' on fortuneana rootstock that are almost 30 years old. They are strong, healthy and floriferous.
most recent 26 JAN SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 JUN by HubertG
The description page for 'Alexander Hill Gray' says "sets no hips". I've always found mine sets hips (which hold seeds) fairly readily. I find this a bit puzzling.
Reply #1 of 21 posted 21 JUN by HMF Admin
And this is exactly why comments like yours are so useful and what makes HMF so special. At some point in time, a permanent reference indicated otherwise and now we know that reference is in question based on your experience.

We need more people take the time to share their experience - Thanks !
Reply #2 of 21 posted 21 JUN by Patricia Routley
I certainly wouldn't discount that reference Admin. What we need is more of them to say if this rose does, or does not set hips. The fact that we show just one 1922 descendant indicates that it does not, and therefore there is a possibility that HubertG has received a rose other than 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Every reference is valuable.
Reply #3 of 21 posted 21 JUN by HubertG
Thanks HMF Admin,
This site is a veritable commonwealth of rose knowledge; the more contributions the better.

Patricia, I have two bushes of AHG ordered from different nurseries maybe 5 years apart. They are both the same and both do set hips. They do look the same as other AHGs in Australia posted here (I've posted a few photos of mine too) This is a double rose but not what I'd call a full one and so they have normal looking reproductive parts and, if insects can get in, I can't see any reason (barring an odd ploidy) why it shouldn't set hips. That's why I thought the no hips reference was unusual. By the time AHG was introduced Teas were waning in popularity, so that is probably the likeliest reason it wasn't used much in breeding, in my opinion.
Reply #4 of 21 posted 21 JUN by HubertG
There are in fact a couple of hips on Margaret Furness' photo here:
Reply #5 of 21 posted 21 JUN by Patricia Routley
That is interesting HubertG. They are hard to see, but I do see them.
I suspect Margaret didn't note them as she has said in her more recent photo 315211 that her plant didn't set hips.
Unfortunately 'Alexander Hill Gray' never came my way, so I have no first-hand experience. How else can I help here?
Reply #6 of 21 posted 21 JUN by HubertG
Best to wait for more comments on this topic, I'd say.
Reply #7 of 21 posted 21 JUN by Margaret Furness
Maybe it varies with how the weather has been. There's nothing on mine now that I would call a hip. It doesn't flower much in a dry summer.
Reply #8 of 21 posted 21 JUN by billy teabag
Do your 'Alexander Hill Gray' plants have prickles HubertG?
Reply #9 of 21 posted 21 JUN by HubertG
No, it's virtually thornless. I took some photos this morning of a few hips on one of my AHGs, which I'll post later.

Its thornlessness was the reason I had previously questioned whether it might have in fact been Mme Derepas-Metrat, one of the other "Yellow Cochets", because that was nearly thornless according to references, and thornlessness is a rarity in early roses.
Reply #10 of 21 posted 22 JUN by HubertG
There were five hips on one of my plants this morning. I didn't check the other plant. The split hip is one I collected about April, showing the seeds. I do think the weather conditions play a part; AHG does tend to ball a bit, so if it doesn't open, it won't become fertilised.
Reply #11 of 21 posted 23 JUN by Patricia Routley
HubertG, I have added a few more references. I have more but it is late and I don't think any more are relevant. Take a look at the 1939 reference. I suspect there may be different versions of 'Alexander Hill Gray' in Australia as the 1998 reference says this rose fades. Most other references says it deepens.
Reply #12 of 21 posted 23 JUN by Margaret Furness
The plant at Renmark derived from the one at Bishop's Lodge, via John Nieuwesteeg. Mine has fallen off my list of provenances, but it's likely it was a spare from when I grew the one for Renmark from cuttings (which is partly why I have too many roses).
Reply #13 of 21 posted 24 JUN by HubertG
Patricia, lots of good new references! The most puzzling aspect for me is not so much the hips or whether the colour fades or deepens but the fragrance which is nearly always described as strong. Sangerhausen gives AHG an 8/10 for fragrance, which is the same they give Marechal Niel, and they also only give Mrs Foley Hobbs (which I find has a stronger fragrance than AHG) a 5/10. I'd only rate AHG about a 3/10 for fragrance. I know fragrance is very subjective, but I think I have a good nose.If the fragrance description in old references varied a lot, or if there were lots of omissions on the fragrance description, I could understand, but it is fairly consistently rated as strong.

Margaret, did Bishop's Lodge have a known specimen of AHG, or was it a found bush that was later given AHG as it's identity? Maybe there are two versions of AHG in Australia. Maybe Mme Derepas-Metrat is one of them, after all they were both "Yellow Cochets". Does your Bishop's lodge AHG with the needle-like thorns have a good fragrance?

Also the 1925 Darlington (English) reference is puzzling because it describes a plant "up to 8-ft, or a little more under glass". My two bushes are barely waist height.
Reply #14 of 21 posted 24 JUN by Margaret Furness
I think the Bishop's Lodge plant would have been identified by John N and David Ruston. As far as I know, but am willing to be corrected, none of the BL plants were labelled.
The plant from Melbourne General Cemetery was identified by Roy Rumsey, who had grown it years earlier.
I'll check fragrance when it flowers again, but I'm not a good judge. My plant is small too so far.
Reply #15 of 21 posted 24 JUN by HubertG
I just found and uploaded a 1919 catalogue photo of a whole bunch of 'Alexander Hill Gray' (photo Id:319773). There are thorns visible on the stems and although they don't seem "needle-like" because they are fairly wide, they are quite straight. If it is to be believed, it is also interesting in that the flower form seems to vary considerably from what I grow as AHG. I'd be interested in seeing more of Margaret Furness' prickled Bishop's Lodge AHG later on when it's in flower to compare.
Reply #16 of 21 posted 25 JUN by HubertG
From "The Garden", Oct 10, 1908 page 493:

...there are other Roses not yet distributed which have obtained a gold medal. To refer to them would be going beyond the scope of these notes; but an exception, however, must be made in favour of a yellow Tea named A. Hill Gray. This Rose promises to be a favourite for the garden and suitable for exhibition. The growth is branching but somewhat slender, free-flowering habit, blooms fairly full, colour yellow, shaded white.
Joseph H. Pemberton"

And from "The Garden", Sep 26, 1908, page 465


A. Hill Gray. - A Tea raised by Messrs. Alexander Dickson and Sons of Newtownards, Ireland. A beautiful Rose of excellent shape, well staged on a tall stand. Delightful pale yellow colouring, fragrant and a good grower; undoubtedly the finest Rose staged in the class. The award of a gold medal was practically unanimous. Good Teas are scarce and are very welcome, especially when up to exhibition standards.
Herbert E. Molyneux"
Reply #17 of 21 posted 25 JUN by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. References added.
Reply #18 of 21 posted 25 JUN by billy teabag
I've just added a few more references to Alexander Hill Gray, including a couple (1954 and 1938) that refer to thornless stems.
Reply #19 of 21 posted 25 JUN by HubertG
Billy, they're very interesting because they seem to be the only early references to the lack of thorns, and they are local too. If both AHG and Mme Derepas-Metrat were virtually thornless, I wonder if AHG was bred from the other. It makes sense that if you had a rose praised as a yellow Cochet in MmeDM, to use it to try to raise something better. And if that were the case, AHG's tendency to sometimes blush pink could be inherited from MmeDM's pollen parent Marie van Houtte. Pure speculation of course.
Reply #20 of 21 posted 25 JUN by billy teabag
When there is an equivalent of Trove in other countries, we'll probably find more references like this.
Margaret's comment is sadly true. Many of the people responsible for those early descriptions probably only ever handled a bloom on a stem that had been de-thorned by the gardener.
Reply #21 of 21 posted 26 JAN by HubertG
Just regarding 'Alexander Hill Gray' setting hips - I've mentioned mine does fairly readily, and just in the last three days I've had four seedlings germinate, all from the same hip of 'Alexander Hill Gray' x 'Lorraine Lee'. This shows it can produce viable seed as well.
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