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billy teabag
most recent 7 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 11 days ago by rafael maino
Found Tea Rose, may be Mme Lombard?
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Reply #2 of 6 posted 11 days ago by Patricia Routley
Just wait. ‘Mme. Lambard’ sets many huge hips.
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Reply #3 of 6 posted 10 days ago by Jay-Jay
What a delightful rose, Rafael!
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Reply #4 of 6 posted 8 days ago by billy teabag
Gorgeous Rafael!
Do you have a close-up photo of the bud in profile?
Does this rose open to show stamens or is there a knot of short petals in the centre?
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
My comment somehow disappeared. I said it looked like Maman Cochet, but I couldn't be sure.
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Reply #6 of 6 posted 8 days ago by Patricia Routley
You did say that HubertG. and I particularly noted your comment. I thought that you were aware that Maman Cochet does not set hips and deleted the comment yourself.

Rafael, I should have been clearer. With time the hips grow really large - you just have to leave them to grow. Here the bushes eventually almost look like a fruit tree laden with small red apples. I enjoy deadheading at last as the new spring growth pushes out, hearing the thump, thump, thump as the hips hit the ground.
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Reply #7 of 6 posted 7 days ago by HubertG
I can't see any hips in the photos. There are a couple of buds in the third photo (at the top towards the left) which appear to have a flattened base to the receptacles, but it's not distinct. That also suggests Maman Cochet to me.
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most recent 13 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 MAY by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
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Reply #1 of 42 posted 10 MAY by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 42 posted 14 MAY by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
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Reply #3 of 42 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #4 of 42 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
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Reply #5 of 42 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
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Reply #6 of 42 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
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Reply #7 of 42 posted 15 MAY by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
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Reply #8 of 42 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
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Reply #9 of 42 posted 16 MAY by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
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Reply #10 of 42 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
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Reply #11 of 42 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

"RED ROSE - FRANCOIS DUBREUIL.
A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
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Reply #12 of 42 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
Interesting.
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
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Reply #13 of 42 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
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Reply #14 of 42 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
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Reply #15 of 42 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
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Reply #38 of 42 posted 29 AUG by HubertG
I have said previously that I did not think 'Princess Bonnie' is a contender for the real identity of FD, but this photograph of Princess Bonnie in the 1916 catalogue of Dingee & Conard (the originators) has me thinking twice about it. The blooms do look cupped, and the petals have that same flattish appearance, with the little indent on the petal edges, giving them a somewhat heart shaped look. And Princess Bonnie was very fragrant. What do others think? The photo gives a good view of the buds too. Note that one stem seems to have a small cluster of three buds.
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Reply #39 of 42 posted 29 AUG by Margaret Furness
Not sure about the receptacle shape, but it's close.
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Reply #40 of 42 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
The problem is that this photo doesn't really look a lot like other depictions of Princess Bonnie, and I wonder if it's a catalogue photo mix up.
Princess Bonnie's pedigree is a tea x (probably triploid) HT, so that could give a fertile diploid rose (as 'FD' does sets hips), so that would make sense. Additionally PB's pollen parent 'William Francis Bennett' does look a bit like 'FD' regarding the blooms (at least in the only photo posted here). However PBonnie is usually described as exceptionally free flowering, and I'm not sure if that could be said about 'FD'.

Also 'Admiral Schley' could be another possible contender although I don't know that they had that rose at Sangerhausen. It certainly isn't mentioned in the Rosen-Zeitung.
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Reply #41 of 42 posted 30 AUG by HubertG
The rose on the left looks as if it has barely 3-4 rows of petals.
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Reply #42 of 42 posted 13 days ago by HubertG
I think it's probably pretty safe to scrap 'Marion Dingee' as a possibility for the true identity of Francis Dubreuil. The 1907 newspaper article from the Leader says it's almost devoid of fragrance, and this supports the early catalogue descriptions which seem to simply omit any reference to fragrance.
From the article:
"Deep red colors are rare among roses of the tea scented class, so rare, in fact, that they may scarcely be said to exist, as the two most, strongly marked examples, Marion Dingee and Princesse de Sagan, are almost devoid of the characteristic fragrance, but though probably containing Bengal or China rose blood, are classed as teas, and are otherwise quite typical in habit, growth and constant profusion of bloom."
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Reply #16 of 42 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
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Reply #17 of 42 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
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Reply #18 of 42 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
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Reply #19 of 42 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
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Reply #20 of 42 posted 8 JUN by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
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Reply #21 of 42 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
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Reply #22 of 42 posted 9 JUN by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
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Reply #23 of 42 posted 9 JUN by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
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Reply #24 of 42 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
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Reply #25 of 42 posted 10 JUN by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
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Reply #26 of 42 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
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Reply #27 of 42 posted 11 JUN by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
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Reply #28 of 42 posted 13 JUN by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
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Reply #29 of 42 posted 13 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
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Reply #30 of 42 posted 14 JUN by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
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Reply #31 of 42 posted 15 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
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Reply #32 of 42 posted 28 JUL by HubertG
I just came across this one: "Francois Menard" a velvety crimson globular tea from 1892.
Sangerhausen's description: "
Ménard, François (tea) Tesnier 1892; crimson, centre velvety cherry, very large, very double, globular, floriferous, thick smooth branches, growth 6/10, bushy, short."

I haven't researched it at all yet - no initial mention of fragrance either - but I thought it might be interesting to look at it as a contender for "Francis Dubreuil" considering too they are both a Francois (well nearly).
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Reply #33 of 42 posted 29 JUL by HubertG
Here's my translation of the description of Francois Menard in the Rosen-Zeitung (from German, which would have been originally from French):

François Ménard (Tea). Shrub low, very vigorous, bushy, fairly smooth and thick-wooded, beautiful dark green foliage; bud very thick on a firm stem, flower very large, very double, globular, beautifully held; beautiful crimson red, centre cherry red blending to velvety crimson, choice, floriferous. (originates from a seedling).

Not sure about the "smooth" wood, if it fits "FD", and although the colour is crimson, that might not necessarily be a dark crimson. No mention of fragrance.
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Reply #34 of 42 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
Hubert, I sifted through my Journal des Roses/Amis des Rose, couldn't find anything tangible.
I checked the L'Haÿ's site, nada.

I found this in Page 42 of Dingee and Conard, 1898

Francois Menard.—New, crimson red, passing to purple.
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Reply #35 of 42 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
I found this to in
Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 26, page 288, March 22, 1892


New French roses
....
15, François Ménard (Tesnier) - Crimson red, centre cherry red, passing into velvety crimson. Very large, very full, globular firm stem.

Link is : https://books.google.ca/books?id=U_xIAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA238&lpg=PA238&dq=rose+%22Francois+Ménard%22&source=bl&ots=_Dil-Ncm9U&sig=W0tv7tp-kSoSpN2ry0yeA73z0Sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWjvDUzsTcAhUvVt8KHTY5Ajo4ChDoATAAegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=rose%20%22Francois%20Ménard%22&f=false
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Reply #36 of 42 posted 30 JUL by HubertG
True-Blue It looks like Francois Menard never really caught on anywhere. Of course if the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil came from Sangerhausen, it could be any obscure rose from that collection, so doesn't necessarily rule out Francois Menard, but some aspects of FM seem to fit and others don't. If only 'Marion Dingee' came with a description of scent...
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Reply #37 of 42 posted 6 AUG by HubertG
Here's another contender to consider: Mme. Rivoy. Dingees class it among their Tea Roses in 1897 but say it is an old variety and has HP characteristics. From their catalogue:

"MADAME RIVOY.* Looks like a Hybrid Perpetual in Flower and Foliage. Is Hardy. In this grand old variety we have a Rose of no ordinary excellence. It is entitled to a place among Ever-blooming Roses equal to that which General Jacqueminot takes among Hybrid Perpetuals. Indeed it is not unlike a Hybrid Perpetual in the extra-large, full and loosely-formed double flowers, enchanting fragrance, intensity of color, large handsome foliage, and extreme vigor of growth ; it is hardy with slight protection, a quick, constant and profuse bloomer, and for outdoor culture cannot be excelled by any Rose of its color. The flowers are produced in wonderful abundance upon long stiff stems, and in color may be described as a rich crimson scarlet; very bright and effective. We doubt if any of our customers have ever seen this lovely Rose, and it is for their benefit, that all may secure one of the finest and best Roses grown, that we call special attention to it by our truthful illustration."

They include an illustration which isn't totally incompatible with "FD".
I don't know if it was in the Sangerhausen collection.
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most recent 14 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 2 JAN 16 by scvirginia
Has anyone considered 'Beauty of Rosemawr' as a possible match? Some of the photos look similar to me... especially buds, flowers and habit; hard to compare foliage from the photos at HMF...

There isn't a whole lot of info about this foundling on its description page... is it fragrant?, etc.

Thanks,
Virginia
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 3 JAN 16 by Patricia Routley
I have added the contenders to the Notes on the main page. These are the roses that I have considered in the past and are only one person's opinions. Other opinions are difficult to glean, but if anyone has any clues to offer, they would be most welcome and we will change the page accordingly.

I'll get to work and add a few botanical details.
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 3 JAN 16 by billy teabag
Thanks for the suggestion. I grow both roses and they are definitely not the same.
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 3 JAN 16 by scvirginia
Does your 'Beauty of Rosemawr' look like the one hmfusr has posted so many photos of? I wonder if there might be more than one rose in commerce as 'BoR'... at least in Australia. I did hear from someone in the U.S. who ordered 'BoR' years ago and got Ragged Robin (which I think is AKA Gloire des Rosomanes') instead, but that could have just been an isolated shipping error.

Thanks,
Virginia
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 4 JAN 16 by billy teabag
I see what you mean Virginia.
No - my 'Beauty of Rosemawr' doesn't look like the lovely rose in hmfusr's photos - and yes! that rose looks a lot like "Camnethan Cherry Red".
The rose I grow under the name 'Beauty of Rosemawr' was from Peter Ellis who obtained the budwood from Ruston's Roses a few years ago.
It's a fairly compact, overly prickly shrub that produces very generous inflorescences and repeats rapidly.
In my conditions, the blooms tend to be smaller and have many more petals than "Camnethan Cherry Red". It's generous and showy.
Our plant of "Camnethan Cherry Red" is more sparse and airy in habit and is far less prickly, though it may be more compact on its own roots or on a different understock as roses budded onto Fortuniana tend to be more stretched.
Hideous hot weather at the moment and any blooms are crispy and at their summer extreme. I'll take some photos showing my two side by side asap and share them here.
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Reply #7 of 7 posted 14 days ago by hmfusr
My plant is also very sparse, and tall. Leaves smallish, tender/soft. It and Titian along with Lorraine Lee are my champion winter bloomers.
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 4 JAN 16 by billy teabag
I'll try to upload some comparative photos of what we grow as "Camnethan Cherry Red" and 'Beauty of Rosemawr' here and add some to their sites.
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 4 JAN 16 by scvirginia
Despite the horrible heat, your 'BoR' looks fetching; the "CCR" also looks pretty good, though it doesn't seem to be a bloom with much structure, as you say.

Clearly not the same rose, and while I was wondering about hmfusr's plant, I don't know if it is 'CCR' or 'Gloire de Rosomanes', or (as seems likely) something else. I wish I knew- it looks- and sounds- like a good rose.

Virginia
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most recent 3 OCT SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 21 FEB
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Reply #1 of 54 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
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Reply #2 of 54 posted 22 FEB by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
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Reply #3 of 54 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
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Reply #4 of 54 posted 22 FEB by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
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Reply #5 of 54 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
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Reply #6 of 54 posted 23 FEB by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
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Reply #7 of 54 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
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Reply #8 of 54 posted 24 FEB by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
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Reply #9 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I've just posted a few more photos of my Dr Grill from 2016 which show a more coppery yellow predominating. They are all from my one bush.
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Reply #10 of 54 posted 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
Blooms of many tea roses are quite changeable in their colour. Take a look at Billy Teabag's photo of ' William R. Smith' at Araluen Botanic Park, near Perth, Western Australia, Spring 2011. You need to photograph your whole bush, showing the skeleton of it if you can.
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Reply #11 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Even if William R Smith comes yellowy at times, my Dr Grill is never white or creamy white flushed pink, so I still can't see it as being W R Smith.
Billy's WRSmith has rather brownish red flower stems like in the George C Thomas 1914 photo, mine are always green. This could just be a cultivation thing - I don't know. I don't think it's your Amelia Anderson either because mine doesn't ball. Some of the photos here of WRSmith certainly look as if they are different roses. There seems to be a lot of confusion around.
It's interesting that Jedmar has posted a Charles Dingee from Sangerhausen and the Rumsey's imported a Dr Grill from Sangerhausen as well. At least this suggests they had two separate roses.
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Reply #12 of 54 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
And Margaret's pink ones!!!
That plant at Araluen is magnificent! There are two really strong and healthy plants at Araluen - one came to them as "BL Amelia Anderson" and the other as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]".
The two plants in my garden are not as pleasing. One came from the same source as Araluen's "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and the other was propagated from a very old plant of 'W.R. Smith' in a garden in Guildford. They produce absolutely beautiful blooms at times but have been slow to build up their skeletons and they look very ungainly and lop-sided compared with the bushes at Araluen. They seem to be heavy feeders and are one of the first roses in the garden to tell me I'm late with their food.
I usually either cut the blooms or deadhead them, so will leave the next ones on to see whether they make any hips here.
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Reply #13 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
My Dr Grill is never THAT pink!
Billy, do you have any photos of the flowers of the old plant from Guildford of W R Smith?

So your photo of William R Smith (photo ID 184609) is Dr Grill from Sangerhausen?
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Reply #14 of 54 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I haven't seen them that pink on mine either (yet) but Teas are full of surprises and as soon as you say 'never', they are likely to do something bizarre. Most Teas vary in colour and form with the seasons but the really odd variations often happen a few weeks after extreme fluctuations in temperature or extreme weather events.
I have slides of the old plant in Guildford but haven't had them digitised. You can take my word for it that it's the same as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson".
I'll have a look through my photo files to see if there are any photos of the plant propagated from it.

(Yes - the provenance of 'W.R. Smith' photographed at Araluen can be traced back to the rose Heather Rumsey received from Sangerhausen as Dr Grill.)
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Reply #15 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Thanks. An old known specimen of W R Smith would be very interesting to view.
When I search for Bishop's Lodge Amelia Anderson it just takes me to William R Smith. They are definitely the same rose?
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Reply #16 of 54 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
Yes. David Ruston grew them for many years and so it was possible to compare the established plants over the seasons in his garden. By chance, plants of "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson" and "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" were positioned side by side in Melville's nursery near Perth, and we were able to study them closer to home as well.
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Reply #17 of 54 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
It's a survivor in old gardens in at least four states. We have as synonyms "Edna Stapleton's Tea" (SA - that's where mine came from, via Pat) and "East Nanango Forestry Tea" (Qld).
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Reply #18 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I just uploaded a couple of old catalogue photos of "Charles Dingee". The photos that Billy Teabag just posted of the Guildford WR Smith bears a striking resemblance (and Billy's tea is creamy white and pink - and very beautiful).
Now I want to grow this Guildford W R Smith.
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Reply #19 of 54 posted 27 FEB by HubertG
Billy Teabag's W R Smith from Guildford looks most like Jean Harrison's photos of her W R Smith.

Do you know if this particular Guildford specimen is in commerce as I'd like to grow it? Also, it would be fabulous to upload those 2 photos under William R Smith, since they only appear under Q & C.
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Reply #20 of 54 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
My specimen of Dr Grill was in fact purchased from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002, not 8-9 years ago as I mentioned earlier. I found an old dated photo.
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Reply #21 of 54 posted 6 MAR by HubertG
Just thinking about the possible origin of my Dr Grill. I bought mine from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002. Once I also visited another nursery which was nearby to Honeysuckle either at Richmond or Windsor (I can't remember it's name either). It was run by a very elderly gent. Basically it existed of his house surrounded by a paddock full of potted roses. He had the roses I enquired about ready for me when I arrived (Jessie Clark was one). Looking around I remember he had some unusual early Hybrid Tea varieties I hadn't seen in any other nursery. There was a beautiful Columbia that I wish I had purchased at the time, and others I can't remember the names of now. I always had the impression that he had grown these old HT's for years or had sourced them locally. I don't remember him having Dr Grill specifically but I do wonder whether he had this from an old local bush and if Honeysuckle Cottage had purchased some of their stock including their Dr Grill from him because he was so close to them.
This is speculation of course, but I just can't see my Dr Grill being William R Smith; they look too different.
My bush currently has about 10 hips on it, and about the same non-developing or withered hips which doesn't add up if W R Smith is not meant to set hips. Plus my Dr Grill doesn't ball.
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Reply #22 of 54 posted 7 MAR by HubertG
Some of the photos of Ah Mow look very much like my Dr Grill, although those petals look a bit more delicate and the foliage looks different.
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Reply #23 of 54 posted 14 MAR by HubertG
Just an update on the question of hips. This is the hip from my Dr, Grill that I posted above on 24 Feb (the first photo). There were 10 normal looking seeds inside. I'll plant them and see if there is a good germination rate. There are about 9 other hips on my bush right now that aren't ripe yet.
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Reply #24 of 54 posted 14 MAR by billy teabag
HubertG, how does your Dr Grill compare to "Comtesse Riza du Parc [in commerce as]"?
Are the receptacles always the semi-globular shape seen on your bud photo, or are they sometimes more globular like those in the old portraits?
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Reply #25 of 54 posted 14 MAR by HubertG
Billy, they aren't the same rose judging from the photos. Mine always has that semi-globular receptacle and perfectly smooth glandless stems, whereas (as you note) the NotCRdP has that distinctive oval receptacle. Also, my Dr Grill flowers are usually solitary (maybe a cluster of 3-4 on a water shoot) whereas 3- 4 flowers per shoot appears to be the norm on the photos of NotCRdP.
Look at the photo by David Elliott (ID176376) of the Dr Grill growing in the Parc de la Tete d'Or. Even though that photo was posted on its side (lol) that looks like my Dr Grill and gives you an idea of the awkward habit that I imagine comes from the Noisette parent. The flowers in the background look the same as mine too. You can also see a few hips if you zoom in. If the NotCRdP sets hips on just about every flower that doesn't sound like the description of Dr Grill in the Rosen-Zeitung that describes an enthusiast being excited over 4-5 ripe hips on their Dr Grill.
How does the NotCRdP smell? My Dr Grill does have that unusual hay scent. I could never quite place what it smelt like until I read the hay reference. Then it was an 'Aha!' moment. I hadn't smelt hay in years and just couldn't put my finger on it.
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Reply #26 of 54 posted 14 MAR by Margaret Furness
Well, if you feel inclined to send a few cuttings this way... Who knows, a miracle might happen, and after 4 years of rumours of "imminent purchase of Ruston's" it might just happen. And the air would be full of flying pigs.
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Reply #27 of 54 posted 15 MAR by HubertG
Margaret, sure I'll send cuttings to you ladies but it'll have to wait till I collect the hips because I want to try and germinate them. In fact, using the last flush I made a few crosses using Lorraine Lee pollen and a few others. I've become intrigued with my Dr Grill because I didn't know it was so in doubt.
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Reply #28 of 54 posted 15 MAR by Margaret Furness
Thank you - when the time comes, contact me via private message for my address. Good luck with the crosses!
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Reply #29 of 54 posted 15 MAR by HubertG
Sure Margaret, no worries. Thanks!

Billy, I didn't answer your enquiry about the old portraits.
The receptacles are depicted differently in all three pictures. My Dr. Grill receptacle is closest to the Journal des Roses depiction, but I think my flower form is closest to the Moon painting with the outer "shell like" petals falling away displaying the centre well . The Rosen Zeitung bud receptacle is rather narrow and odd. To be honest I don't think these can be used as any sort of real botanical proof of receptacles, but they are interesting. The accurate depiction of a bud receptacle probably wasn't the greatest priority for the artist whose main purpose was to depict the flower form and colour. That Moon bud could have just been painted in for artistic balance after the main flowers were finished. The Rosen-Zeitung portrait is the hardest from which to make any sort of botanical sense. Also, I think the medium the artist used could make a big difference to the final result. The Moon painting looks like a gouache, but I really don't know how these pictures were technically reproduced back then. Maybe you could look at some of Moon's other paintings of confirmed roses to see how accurately he paints those bud details in them.
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Reply #30 of 54 posted 21 MAR by billy teabag
Moon's rose paintings in The Garden were described as naturalistic in style. I have not grown all the roses he painted and cannot speak about the accuracy of the portraits of those varieties but the ones I do know well such as 'Anna Olivier' are botanically faithful portraits.
If only your rose had receptacles matching those in Moon's portrait of 'Dr Grill'!
If, as you say, the receptacles are consistently semi-globular, this point of difference brings doubt.
Does you rose have darker coloured petal reverses?
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Reply #33 of 54 posted 22 MAR by HubertG
Maybe if the "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" does smell like dried grass it could be Dr Grill.
My rose when it is in pinker mode has a slight difference between both sides of the petals (the backs being slightly darker) but it isn't a pronounced contrast. You can see it in some of my bud photos. You can also get splashes of pink on the base of the reverse.

I noticed that the illustrations of Hugo Roller in The Garden and the Journal des Roses are obviously copied one from the other. Moon's portrait was published first earlier in the same year. It just goes to show that the artist didn't always have a bunch of fresh flowers in front of them when they were drawn. That's why I wouldn't place too much faith in those small details such as the receptacle shape, as there is always artistic licence at play. Note the upside down prickle on the Moon Dr Grill picture. If we took that too literally we'd never identify Dr Grill!

Also I was reading in the Rosen-Zeitung what essentially amounted to an apology by their artist Lena Schmidt Michel, in which she mentions that people are disappointed when they buy a rose based on the drawing and it turns out looking differently.
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Reply #36 of 54 posted 22 MAR by billy teabag
I agree with you that some portraits are deceptive. Apart from the skill of the artist and their commitment to accuracy and the skill of the printer, there are the limitations of the printing processes and materials in play.
It's good that the roses themselves can be the final authority. If we compare roses that have undisputed identities (there are a few that have never lost their names) with the various portraits we come to know which artists are the most accurate and trustworthy.
Some portraits are definitely idealised and some are positively unreliable re detail while others are incredibly accurate.
Alfred Parsons' watercolours show great attention to detail and capture both the natural impression and the finer detail, though the colour reproduction failed them during the printing process.
Accuracy in images was clearly important in many horticultural publications. The first time Moon's portrait of Mme de Watteville was published in The Garden in 1888, the colour reproduction was considered unsatisfactory, so it was republished later that year with notes about this accompanying the plates. (see 'Mme de Watteville' photos and captions on HMF for the details.)
Other examples spring to mind too, where accompanying texts draw readers' attention to inaccuracies in detail, accuracy and labelling
I'm always amazed at the accuracy of the rose portraits in the Wills' cigarette cards. Most of the rose sets are chromolithographs - essentially tiny dot paintings but some are more recognisable than photographs. I read somewhere that accuracy in the cigarette card sets was very important as the eagle eye of the public was always alert to errors and quick to let the cigarette company know in hope of reward.
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Reply #31 of 54 posted 21 MAR by billy teabag
"Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" has a base fragrance that is like dried vegetation. Sometimes there are additional notes that vary in intensity and character. Sometimes the dried grass smell has faint floral, fruity or aromatic notes - varying with conditions, time of day etc.
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Reply #32 of 54 posted 21 MAR by Jay-Jay
Dried grass smell is called cumarine.
Galium odoratum or the sweetscented bedstraw or sweet woodruff has this scent when contused.
And as we are providing recipes: Very nice in fruit-bowls(fruit-cup) or white wine(German tradition. They call this herb Waldmeister: Master of the woods)
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Reply #34 of 54 posted 22 MAR by billy teabag
Thank you Jay Jay. It would be wonderful to have a trained and educated nose to help with those many maddening 'What IS that familiar smell? moments in the rose garden.
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Reply #35 of 54 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
A good nose is indeed often a bless, but can be a handicap when one is too sensitive as for the nowadays washing detergent- and softener-smells.(I won't call those scented, for me those smells are brutal, invasive and irritate eyes, nose and mind)
...And a handicap (or no go) when wanting to visit people that "odorated" themselves and/or their homes/bathrooms.
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Reply #37 of 54 posted 14 APR by HubertG
I wanted to post this photo that I took today (14/4/18) of my 'Dr. Grill' which shows a group of three hips. New shoots have come out from the base of the hip stalks, and the hips still hold on. These are probably from flowers from late January. I've done a few intentional crosses since then, and only two hips didn't take, so it does seem to set hips quite readily.
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Reply #38 of 54 posted 30 SEP by HubertG
Having discovered a new photo of some 'Dr. Grill' blooms, I'm even more inclined to think that my "Dr. Grill" from Honeysuckle Nursery is the real thing. I've managed to procure a bush of William R. Smith that was sold as a Dr. Grill, and although its buds haven't opened yet, I can already tell from the leaves, growth, buds etc that it isn't the same as the rose I grow as 'Dr. Grill'. I can definitely recognise my Dr. Grill in this old photo. Compare the lower bloom in the old photo to Photo Id: 313127
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Reply #39 of 54 posted 30 SEP by Margaret Furness
It's exciting to think that the real deal may till be in Aus. I look forward to trying it some time! Ideally early Dec. please.
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Reply #40 of 54 posted 30 SEP by HubertG
By all means. I took cuttings in sand this winter. Some are shooting but I don't want to disturb them yet. I'll definitely put you on the reservation list lol. I'm keen to spread it around.
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Reply #41 of 54 posted 30 SEP by HubertG
Also, the photo of the Dr. Grill in the Royal Botanic Gardens in Sydney shows a magnificent, large specimen. I keep hacking mine back because it's in a cramped space, but I'm going to try and grow a new specimen and allow it to spread naturally.
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Reply #42 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Friends who grow cuttings in the ground say to leave them for a year: I gave up in-ground cuttings due to the effort of digging them out. Amazing what Veilchenblau can do in a year. Not sure whether yours are in-ground or in pots, but either way, I'm sure you're right not to disturb them.
I was thinking more of scrounging a cutting or two and a budstick, to try an each-way bet, if your bush can spare enough. There may be things on my plant list you'd like material from, in exchange.
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Reply #43 of 54 posted 1 OCT by HubertG
Yes Margaret, I'd be happy to send you cutting and budwood material in early December. My cuttings in sand were in pots; I just found that if I used cutting or seed mix too many rotted off. I haven't had a history of great success with cuttings in general anyway, so I'm only too happy if you can propagate this plant for yourself and eventually others.
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Reply #44 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Thank you. It's important to spread the rarities around.
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Reply #45 of 54 posted 1 OCT by billy teabag
Is there any way you can discover the provenance of your Dr Grill HubertG?
I would very much like to grow this at some time in the future.
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Reply #48 of 54 posted 1 OCT by HubertG
I simply bought it as 'Dr. Grill' at Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery back in 2002. I have no idea from where they obtained it. I'm pretty sure they've closed down now. I did mention earlier that I suspected they could have obtained it from a close-by nursery which sold some other rarities such as Korovo and Columbia but that was pure speculation on my part. That nursery was Gretchen Wheen's nursery (I found some old tags of roses I bought there) but I don't know if they sold a 'Dr. Grill' at all.

I guess that there is always the possibility that this rose was in fact the correct 'Dr. Grill' imported from Sangerhausen into Australia, and having been perhaps incorrectly identified as 'W. R. Smith' it has become totally confused and substituted with that rose in nurseries here over time. However, again this is speculation. From the Australian references it appears to be long-lived, and from what I've read in European references it seems relatively cold hardy, so perhaps it did survive in Germany and wasn't mislabelled after all.

Billy, I'm happy to send you struck plants when I have some.
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Reply #52 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Gretchen Wheen was the lady who introduced AI of bees to Australia (the mind boggles). She certainly had some rare roses. Bruce of Glenorie nursery tried to salvage some for HRIAI a few years ago, but the garden had been let go during her last illness, and it was impossible to identify many of the plants. He did save an Aus poly, E N Ward, 1919, which is now at Werribee.
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Reply #54 of 54 posted 3 OCT by HubertG
I guess that's even more encouraging that it might be the correct rose.
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Reply #55 of 54 posted 3 OCT by Patricia Routley
The rose would have been passed from one nursery to the other. Look at the post codes.
Honeysuckle at Bowen Mountain 2753
Gretchen Wheen, Richmond, near the Hawkesbury River 2753

It is of interest to look at the Honeysuckle refs for ‘Dr. Grill’. She listed it in 1992, 1995, 1998 (Tea Roses came out in 2008) and she did not list it in 2010.
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Reply #46 of 54 posted 1 OCT by billy teabag
I couldn't agree more J-J!
Olfactory assault and confusion in every room of the house and 'unscented' products fetching a premium price. A mad, mad world.
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Reply #47 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Woodruff and lady's bedstraw along with meadow sweet (Filipendula ulmaria) are also very good strewing herbs. In past times people would put them on their floors and the smell would be agreeable and the herbs would also help deter pests like fleas and moth.
There is a shop you will find in most large towns called Lush that sells scented candles and soaps and other smelly stuff. I can detect the odour oozing out from it from several shops away and I instantly start a headache and a feeling of sickness, if I actually went into the shop I would be really ill.
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Reply #49 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Jay-Jay
"High Five"!
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Reply #50 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Finally found it! The recent posts follow 31-35.
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Reply #51 of 54 posted 1 OCT by HubertG
Jay-Jay, is that a high five for Andrew from Dolton having a sensitive nose, or a high five for possibly finding the correct Dr.Grill? lol.
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Reply #53 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Jay-Jay
High five to You, for finding the real-one... and I meant shake hands with Andrew as a companion "sniffer"!
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