HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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billy teabag
most recent 13 days ago SHOW ALL
Initial post 10 MAY by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
Reply #1 of 37 posted 10 MAY by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #2 of 37 posted 14 MAY by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
Reply #3 of 37 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
Reply #4 of 37 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
Reply #5 of 37 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
Reply #6 of 37 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
Reply #7 of 37 posted 15 MAY by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
Reply #8 of 37 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
Reply #9 of 37 posted 16 MAY by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
Reply #10 of 37 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
Reply #11 of 37 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
Reply #12 of 37 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
Reply #13 of 37 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
Reply #14 of 37 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
Reply #15 of 37 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
Reply #16 of 37 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
Reply #17 of 37 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
Reply #18 of 37 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
Reply #19 of 37 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
Reply #20 of 37 posted 8 JUN by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
Reply #21 of 37 posted 8 JUN by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
Reply #22 of 37 posted 9 JUN by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
Reply #23 of 37 posted 9 JUN by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
Reply #24 of 37 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
Reply #25 of 37 posted 10 JUN by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
Reply #26 of 37 posted 10 JUN by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
Reply #27 of 37 posted 11 JUN by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
Reply #28 of 37 posted 13 JUN by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
Reply #29 of 37 posted 13 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
Reply #30 of 37 posted 14 JUN by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
Reply #31 of 37 posted 15 JUN by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
Reply #32 of 37 posted 28 JUL by HubertG
I just came across this one: "Francois Menard" a velvety crimson globular tea from 1892.
Sangerhausen's description: "
Ménard, François (tea) Tesnier 1892; crimson, centre velvety cherry, very large, very double, globular, floriferous, thick smooth branches, growth 6/10, bushy, short."

I haven't researched it at all yet - no initial mention of fragrance either - but I thought it might be interesting to look at it as a contender for "Francis Dubreuil" considering too they are both a Francois (well nearly).
Reply #33 of 37 posted 29 JUL by HubertG
Here's my translation of the description of Francois Menard in the Rosen-Zeitung (from German, which would have been originally from French):

François Ménard (Tea). Shrub low, very vigorous, bushy, fairly smooth and thick-wooded, beautiful dark green foliage; bud very thick on a firm stem, flower very large, very double, globular, beautifully held; beautiful crimson red, centre cherry red blending to velvety crimson, choice, floriferous. (originates from a seedling).

Not sure about the "smooth" wood, if it fits "FD", and although the colour is crimson, that might not necessarily be a dark crimson. No mention of fragrance.
Reply #34 of 37 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
Hubert, I sifted through my Journal des Roses/Amis des Rose, couldn't find anything tangible.
I checked the L'Haÿ's site, nada.

I found this in Page 42 of Dingee and Conard, 1898

Francois Menard.—New, crimson red, passing to purple.
Reply #35 of 37 posted 29 JUL by true-blue
I found this to in
Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, Volume 26, page 288, March 22, 1892

New French roses
15, François Ménard (Tesnier) - Crimson red, centre cherry red, passing into velvety crimson. Very large, very full, globular firm stem.

Link is :énard%22&source=bl&ots=_Dil-Ncm9U&sig=W0tv7tp-kSoSpN2ry0yeA73z0Sw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiWjvDUzsTcAhUvVt8KHTY5Ajo4ChDoATAAegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=rose%20%22Francois%20Ménard%22&f=false
Reply #36 of 37 posted 30 JUL by HubertG
True-Blue It looks like Francois Menard never really caught on anywhere. Of course if the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil came from Sangerhausen, it could be any obscure rose from that collection, so doesn't necessarily rule out Francois Menard, but some aspects of FM seem to fit and others don't. If only 'Marion Dingee' came with a description of scent...
Reply #37 of 37 posted 13 days ago by HubertG
Here's another contender to consider: Mme. Rivoy. Dingees class it among their Tea Roses in 1897 but say it is an old variety and has HP characteristics. From their catalogue:

"MADAME RIVOY.* Looks like a Hybrid Perpetual in Flower and Foliage. Is Hardy. In this grand old variety we have a Rose of no ordinary excellence. It is entitled to a place among Ever-blooming Roses equal to that which General Jacqueminot takes among Hybrid Perpetuals. Indeed it is not unlike a Hybrid Perpetual in the extra-large, full and loosely-formed double flowers, enchanting fragrance, intensity of color, large handsome foliage, and extreme vigor of growth ; it is hardy with slight protection, a quick, constant and profuse bloomer, and for outdoor culture cannot be excelled by any Rose of its color. The flowers are produced in wonderful abundance upon long stiff stems, and in color may be described as a rich crimson scarlet; very bright and effective. We doubt if any of our customers have ever seen this lovely Rose, and it is for their benefit, that all may secure one of the finest and best Roses grown, that we call special attention to it by our truthful illustration."

They include an illustration which isn't totally incompatible with "FD".
I don't know if it was in the Sangerhausen collection.
most recent 26 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 28 APR by HubertG
It seems to be more of a bush Tea to me, rather than a climber or Noisette.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 APR by billy teabag
How does this rose compare with your Dr Grill HubertG?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 28 APR by HubertG
It's definitely not the same. Juani appears to be semi-double, or a bit more than this, and the petals seem to 'star' a bit.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 26 JUL by HubertG
"Juani" matches the descriptions of 'Duchesse Marie Salviati' to some degree with the long buds and the chrome orange/yellow with peach shadings. It was more popular apparently in continental Europe than in Britain so possibly could have become popular in Argentina. Soupert & Notting were also the official royal suppliers to Brazil back then, so maybe it could have made its way south from Brazil. However, Duchesse Marie Salviati' had a distinct violet scent, so if Juani doesn't have a violet scent, I'm sure that would rule it out.
Just something to consider.
most recent 26 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 12 APR 09 by billy teabag
I have heard reports of plants of 'Lady Hillingdon' labelled 'Lady Plymouth', and this photo looks like 'Lady Hillingdon'.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 12 APR 09 by jedmar
Can be. A lot of Teas at Sangerhausen are mislabeled. We need a picture of the real 'Lady Plymouth' to compare.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 13 APR 09 by billy teabag
Wish I had one to share but so far no joy in that quest.
Reply #3 of 6 posted 13 APR 09 by billy teabag
Is there a photo with the description in the 1920 Edition of Captain Thomas's book 'The Practical Book of Outdoor Rose Growing'?
I have the 4th edition but Lady Plymouth isn't in that one.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 14 APR 09 by Cass
No photo, Billy. The 1920 edition is on google books.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 15 APR 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Cass
Reply #6 of 6 posted 26 JUL by HubertG
I just uploaded an old photograph of 'Lady Plymouth' for comparison. The form looks like the other photograph here, although the colour doesn't really match early descriptions.
most recent 20 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 2 JUL by Patricia Routley
Virginia, is it possible for you [or someone else] to add translations of the early 'Mme. Berard' references please?
Reply #1 of 13 posted 2 JUL by HubertG
There's an interesting passage in the Rosen-Zeitung where someone writes in asking how to tell Gloire de Dijon and Mme. Berard apart, and the answer gives some interesting details. I'll post and translate that one later. It might be helpful. Very many of the other references in Rosen-Zeitung comment on how good a seed bearer Mme. Berard is, although this is perhaps no surprise given the number of its offspring.
Reply #2 of 13 posted 2 JUL by billy teabag
"Rose in Commerce as Adam / almost certainly Mme Bérard" is a prodigious seed bearer. It is one of those roses that produces a hip for practically every flower, and if not dead-headed, the plant puts all its energy into making hips and seeds and becomes weak and disease prone.
David Ruston mentioned 'Great Western' as another example of a rose that needs to be rescued from its extreme fertility.
Reply #3 of 13 posted 3 JUL by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung 1898, pages83-84

... b) Welche deutlichen Erkennungszeichen hat man, um die beiden Rosen Gloire de Dijon und Madame Bérard zu unterschieden?

... Antwort auf Frage b. Die beiden genannten Rosen sind ebenso verschieden, wie etwa eine Souvenir de la Malmaison von einer Captain Christy verschieden ist. Vor allem verschieden sind die Blüten. Gloire de Dijon ist bedeutend heller; sie ist weiss und gelb, M. Bérard ist gelb und kupfrig. Gloire de Dijon öffnet sich leicht ganz und zeigt dann Wirrbau; Mad. Bérard öffnet sich nie ganz und zeigt nie Wirrbau; Aber auch andere Unterschiede sind auffallend. Gloire de Dijon ist reich, Mad. Bérard spärlich bestachelt. Gloire de Dijon blüht an langen, entspitzten Trieben an fast allen Augen; MB fast immer nur an den entständigen. Gl. de Dijon hat eine dicke, rundliche Knospe; M.B. eine mehr langliche. Gloire de Dijon gehört zu denjenigen Theerosen, deren reifes Holz - wie das des M. Niel - sehr hart und spröde ist; M. Bérard gehört zu denen, die sehr weiches Holz haben. Diese Unterschied ist, wenn mann beide Sorte nach einander okuliert, äusserst auffallend. Endlich hat M. Bérard durchaus dunkleres und reiches Laub als G. de Dijon. Aber schön sind beide."

My translation:

Question Box
b) What clear signs are there to recognise the difference between the roses Gloire de Dijon and Madame Berard?

... Answer to question b. Both the mentioned roses differ in much the same way in which a Souvenir de la Malmaison is different from a Captain Christy. Above all, the blooms are different. Gloire de Dijon is significantly lighter; it is white with yellow, M. Berard is yellow and coppery. Gloire de Dijon opens completely easily and then shows a confused construction; Mad. Berard never completely opens and never shows a confused construction; But other differences are also noticeable. Gloire de Dijon is richly and Mad. Berard is sparsely prickled. Gloire de Dijon flowers on long tip-pruned shoots from almost all eyes; M B almost always only on the teminals. Gl. de Dijon has a thick roundish bud; M.B. a more elongated one. Gloire de Dijon belongs to those Tea Roses whose mature wood - like that of M. Niel - is very hard and brittle; M. Berard belongs to those which have very soft wood. This difference is extremely noticeable when one buds both varieties one after the other. Finally, M Berard has thoroughly darker and richer foliage than Gloire de Dijon. Both, however, are beautiful.
Reply #4 of 13 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
Translation of the above is now added.
I should comment that "Wirrbau" is rather hard to translate so that the original intended meaning is conveyed. It literally means confused or muddled construction or build. However it doesn't seem to be a word that is normally reserved specifically for roses because it doesn't appear anywhere else in all the Rosen-Zeitung publications. It seems to most be commonly used for when bees start building a hive in an irregular way. In any case, I've left it as "confused construction" because that can cover a good deal.
I wonder if the writer means a twisted rosette eye once the flowers expand. Anyway, it is an interesting and hopefully helpful reference.
Reply #5 of 13 posted 4 JUL by billy teabag
Many thanks for this HubertG. There's a lot of very useful detail in that reference.
I ran the original through Google translate late last night and though it did a reasonably good job, it didn't even attempt "Wirrbau".
If we can safely conclude that the roses grow similarly enough in temperate Australia and wherever these observations were made (are there any hints about the location?), then reading the descriptions of growth habit and where the blooms tend to appear, "Not Adam" is more like 'Gloire de Dijon' and 'Mme Berard' sounds closer in growth habit to roses like 'Reve d'Or'.
I'm less certain that "Not Adam" is 'Mme Berard' after reading this.
Reply #6 of 13 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
Billy, you're welcome. I'll check later for clues on the writer's location. There are lots of Mme Berard references on Rosen-Zeitung. That one was probably the most interesting, but I can post more. I haven't grown either rose so can't comment but the photos I've seen over the years of Gloire de Dijon do give the impression of it having a muddled or 'wirr' form.
Reply #7 of 13 posted 4 JUL by Patricia Routley
Reference added.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 4 JUL by HubertG
The writer was "O.S. in L.". This must be Otto Schultze who was a contributor to the Rosen-Zeitung, but so far I haven't been able to determine the location "L."

This might be useful. From the Rosen-Zeitung 1894 page 7:
"Mad. Moreau ist in allen Eigenschaften mit Mad. Bérard identisch, das Lachsgelb der Blüte ist jedoch viel kräftiger als bei Mad. Bérard. Mad. Moreau erscheint farbenglänzender als letztere."

Mad. Moreau is in all characteristics identical to Mad. Berard, the salmon-yellow of the flower is however much stronger than Mad. Berard. Mad. Moreau comes more brightly coloured than the latter."

And from page 19 of 1894:

"Mme Bérard, besonders reich im Herbst blühend."

Mme Berard, especially abundantly blooming in autumn.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 5 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks again HubertG. Reference added
Reply #10 of 13 posted 18 JUL by HubertG
Has anyone considered Mme Chauvry (from Bonnaire) as a possible identity for the Australian presumed Mme Berard? It was Mme Berard x W A Richardson.
Superficially it fits the bill and was a profuse hip bearer, but I haven't looked into it enough to find any minutiae which might rule it out. Just throwing it out there.
Reply #11 of 13 posted 18 JUL by Margaret Furness
It would be helpful if anyone who grows Mme Chauvry, or has seen it growing, would post photos with ID-type details, and state the provenance of their rose please.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 20 JUL by HubertG
'Mme Moreau' (1889 Moreau-Robert) might be another one to consider for the Australian Mme Berard.
It was Mme Falcot x Mme Berard and was thornless or nearly so.
Reply #13 of 13 posted 20 JUL by Marlorena
There is also a 'Madame Simon', a seedling of 'Mme Berard' which is so similar, that I wonder if I grew this rose instead when I had it as 'Mme Berard'... incidentally Beales no longer offer it under the 'Mme Berard' name, only 'Adam'... looks like the same rose to me... but the sole photo of 'Madame Simon' on HMF looks more like the rose I had... and from reading the references it conforms to all that's said about it.... but I suppose I'll never know for sure..
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