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billy teabag
most recent today HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post yesterday by HubertG
The description page for 'Alexander Hill Gray' says "sets no hips". I've always found mine sets hips (which hold seeds) fairly readily. I find this a bit puzzling.
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Reply #1 of 10 posted yesterday by HMF Admin
And this is exactly why comments like yours are so useful and what makes HMF so special. At some point in time, a permanent reference indicated otherwise and now we know that reference is in question based on your experience.

We need more people take the time to share their experience - Thanks !
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Reply #2 of 10 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
I certainly wouldn't discount that reference Admin. What we need is more of them to say if this rose does, or does not set hips. The fact that we show just one 1922 descendant indicates that it does not, and therefore there is a possibility that HubertG has received a rose other than 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Every reference is valuable.
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Reply #3 of 10 posted yesterday by HubertG
Thanks HMF Admin,
This site is a veritable commonwealth of rose knowledge; the more contributions the better.

Patricia, I have two bushes of AHG ordered from different nurseries maybe 5 years apart. They are both the same and both do set hips. They do look the same as other AHGs in Australia posted here (I've posted a few photos of mine too) This is a double rose but not what I'd call a full one and so they have normal looking reproductive parts and, if insects can get in, I can't see any reason (barring an odd ploidy) why it shouldn't set hips. That's why I thought the no hips reference was unusual. By the time AHG was introduced Teas were waning in popularity, so that is probably the likeliest reason it wasn't used much in breeding, in my opinion.
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Reply #4 of 10 posted yesterday by HubertG
There are in fact a couple of hips on Margaret Furness' photo here:

http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.304447
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Reply #5 of 10 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
That is interesting HubertG. They are hard to see, but I do see them.
I suspect Margaret didn't note them as she has said in her more recent photo 315211 that her plant didn't set hips.
Unfortunately 'Alexander Hill Gray' never came my way, so I have no first-hand experience. How else can I help here?
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Reply #6 of 10 posted yesterday by HubertG
Best to wait for more comments on this topic, I'd say.
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Reply #7 of 10 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Maybe it varies with how the weather has been. There's nothing on mine now that I would call a hip. It doesn't flower much in a dry summer.
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Reply #8 of 10 posted yesterday by billy teabag
Do your 'Alexander Hill Gray' plants have prickles HubertG?
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Reply #9 of 10 posted yesterday by HubertG
No, it's virtually thornless. I took some photos this morning of a few hips on one of my AHGs, which I'll post later.

Its thornlessness was the reason I had previously questioned whether it might have in fact been Mme Derepas-Metrat, one of the other "Yellow Cochets", because that was nearly thornless according to references, and thornlessness is a rarity in early roses.
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Reply #10 of 10 posted today by HubertG
There were five hips on one of my plants this morning. I didn't check the other plant. The split hip is one I collected about April, showing the seeds. I do think the weather conditions play a part; AHG does tend to ball a bit, so if it doesn't open, it won't become fertilised.
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Initial post 24 JUN by Andrew from Dolton
You make my northern hemisphere winter solstice of holly and ivy look extremely dull and pedestrian. The nights will be drawing out for you for the next six months now.
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Reply #1 of 3 posted 28 JUN by billy teabag
This is true - and by Summer solstice there should be some nice crispy blooms to arrange.
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Reply #2 of 3 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Will you be posting any more pictures of your wonderful midwinter roses this year?
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Reply #3 of 3 posted yesterday by HubertG
I'd certainly look forward to a special treat of Billy's roses too!
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most recent 4 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 12 MAR by HubertG
From 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' 1912:

Under "Hardy Everblooming Tea Roses"
"ALBERT STOPFORD: It is superb, like Bon Silene, a vigorous and free bloomer, producing beautiful flowers in great profusion. The color is a very dark crimson-rose."

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dingee_guide_to_rose_culture_-_for_more_than_60_years_an_authority_(1915)_(20767762698).jpg

Page number not listed.
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Reply #1 of 15 posted 12 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 15 posted 12 MAR by HubertG
You're very welcome.

I was actually wondering whether this rose was Vestey's Pink Tea? I know that this rose is listed as identical to General Schablikine, but I grow both and don't see them being the same. VPT is very similar to General Schablikine, but there are enough differences in my mind to know they aren't identical.
Considering Albert Stopford is a seedling of General Schablikine by Papa Gontier, it could fit the bill for Vestey's Pink Tea.

Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?
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Reply #3 of 15 posted 12 MAR by Margaret Furness
An intriguing thought. Could you post side-by-side comparison photos showing receptacle, bud, prickles, leaves, flowers?
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Reply #4 of 15 posted 12 MAR by HubertG
Sure, the only reservation I have is that my two roses grow in different conditions. My General Schablikine is in the ground and has become huge and my Vestey's Pink is in a large pot and receives a bit less sun. The main differences I discern are in the colour where VPT is consistently less coppery pink than GS and tends to be a brighter carmine more often. The winter flowers are decidedly different with GS being more cupped shaped and VPT more long and of slightly more HT form. At other times of the year the flower form on both is very similar being that shaggy almost pompom look. The fragrance is much the same. GS I think is more prickly, The flower stems on VPT are more often less 'kinky' than GS.
I'll post a few flowers etc for comparison. I don't want to go making any great claims in case they are the same after all.

The best experiment would be to take cuttings from both and give them identical culture to see if what, if any, differences can be discerned. I'll try that.
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Reply #5 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Patricia Routley
Provenances?
Have you obtained that book yet?
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Reply #6 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I've been reading the Tea Rose book online, and plan on putting my hands on a hard copy.

Regarding the provenances I can't be sure without looking up really old cheque butts. I think I bought my General Schablikine from Golden Vale in about 1998. I bought Vestey's Pink Tea at a guess in 2005 after I read about it in Botanica but I can't remember from where. I'll check when I have time.
Here are some photos of buds at about the same stage that I picked today (13/3/18). The colour is hard to capture accurately but GS is a warmer pink and VPT is cooler. The other noticeable difference is that usually VPT displays the long 5th sepal a la Lady Hillingdon, whereas this is rare in GS. This is what made me think that Albert Stopford could be a contender for Vestey's Pink as both Lady Hillingdon and Albert Stopford have Papa Gontier as a parent. The glands on the stem of GS, VPT and Papa Gontier all smell the same too.
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Reply #7 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Margaret Furness
Thank you - that's a good start. Colours of potted plants are a problem. I had three gallicas or hybrid gallicas that should have been mauve, but in Nu-earth Premium were pink last spring. I'll have to see what they look like in the ground this year.
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Reply #8 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I think the best way to compare is to take cuttings from both and grow them in identical mix, pots, fertiliser and sun.
However over the many years I've grown them, there are too many differences for me to currently think they are the same rose.
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Reply #9 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Margaret Furness
It's probably still warm enough where you are to try the doggybag technique of taking cuttings now -
see http://heritage.rose.org.au/rose-propagation I use Perlite as aerator now, since the kittylitter formula appears to have changed, and I haven't yet found another that's suitable. Or you could send me cuttings of "Vestey's Pink Tea" if you like, to try in the ground eventually (I've had General Schab in-ground for about 9 years). A couple of Tealadies visit from time to time. Check with quarantine first re sending to SA though. Sending to WA would be better but quarantine is too much of a hurdle.
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Reply #10 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
Thanks, I'll give that technique a go.
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Reply #11 of 15 posted 13 MAR by Patricia Routley
......Do you know if Albert Stopford was sold in Australia?

No it was not. It did get to New Zealand, but not Australia. In my garden, both "Vestey's Pink Tea" and 'General Schablikine' are the same.
Your roses may be the same, but you are pushing roses uphill trying to compare a less-sun tea in a pot with a full-sun tea in the ground. In case they are different, to find out which of your roses is the true 'General Schablikine', watch every bloom for that S-bend curve of the consistently bristly pedicel. Then go to work on the other rose keeping 'Mme. Lambard' and 'Monsieur Tillier' in the back of your mind.
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Reply #12 of 15 posted 13 MAR by HubertG
I do grow the rose that was sold in Australia as "Freiherr von Marschall" (that now seems to be re-identified as Mme Lambard) and my Vestey's isn't that. I grew a Monsier Tillier from Green E's nursery and currently have a Archiduc Joseph from Mistydown's and isn't either of those either. (I don't know if those two roses were correctly identified but they were different in any case). I don't doubt my General Schablikine is the real thing either.

I think it's best to compare cuttings grown in the same conditions. My Vestey's Pink has been moved around in a pot quite a bit and has received more sun at times and it doesn't really change that much. Conversely I have a cutting of General Schablikine growing in a small pot in a shady spot and it still puts out flowers like its parent bush.

My Vestey's Pink rarely shows much kink to the stem like GS does, but that could be cultural. However, I think that long 5th sepal must be genetic, not a cultivational difference. Few tea roses have that.

If someone has incorrectly identified Vestey's Pink Tea as General Schablikine, maybe the nurseries have merged stock and Patricia is comparing two General Schablikines. (?)

I'll let this be for now and report back when I can compare cuttings. Lastly though here are the opening flowers of the two buds I compared yesterday. The biggest noticeable difference is in the colour which is consistently less coppery in Vestey's Pink.
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Reply #13 of 15 posted 14 MAR by billy teabag
It was our Tea rose study group that noticed "Vestey's Pink Tea" is the same as 'General Schablikine' while we were researching the roses for the Tea rose book. This wasn't done in haste or based on the comparison of single plants.
The roses were growing side by side in the display garden of Melvilles rose Nursery near Perth in the late 1990s and this is where we first noted that they appeared to be the same.
I have a number of quotations on the pinup board behind my computer that I find useful when researching roses and anything else for that matter. One of them is Richard Buckminster Fuller's "You uncover what is when you get rid of what isn’t." and another, this humbling one by the late Trevor Griffiths "Identification is a complex subject. The worst mistake that can be made is that you should assume the name for your particular rose is the correct one and that everyone else is wrong." (from A Celebration of Old Roses p15).

There is always a lot of that about - between the six who researched and wrote the book, we probably had every misnamed Tea rose in the country growing in our gardens so we were very aware of the perils of mislabeling and the difficulties that can arise when sorting out which (and whose) roses are correctly named. To check for the possibility that Melvilles might have a misnamed rose, we ordered roses from a number of interstate nurseries and, in this case, we always received the same rose under the name "Vestey's Pink Tea". 'General Schablikine' was a different matter - apart from 'General Schablikine labelled 'General Schablikine', some nurseries were sending out 'Mons Tillier' as 'General Schablikine' and some sent 'General Gallieni' (and vice versa). We also received "[not] Souvenir d'Un Ami" with a 'General Schablikine' label.

For our book to be useful, we needed to know whether we (ie, East, Central and West Australian gardeners) were growing the same Tea roses under the same names and, if there were discrepancies, to understand what and where they were, and how they come about. So we took every opportunity to visit collections in nurseries and gardens in other states. Of course there were discrepancies - even with the utmost diligence, there are inevitably occasional errors in labeling and once they get into a distribution stream, the errors spread, sometimes quite widely. The good news was that the discrepancies were where they were expected to be, and thanks to information shared by nursery people and rose collectors, for reasons we came to understand.
Rustons Roses, at that time the main supplier of budwood to Australian rose nurseries, had stock plants of both 'General Schablikine' and "Vestey's Pink Tea" and we had the opportunity to examine them closely on a number of visits to the garden in Renmark. 'General Schablikine', like most Teas, varies in bloom form and colour with the seasons and in response to different conditions and rootstocks but at Rustons Roses, as in Melville's Nursery, the roses were undoubtedly the same. After we drew David Ruston's attention to this he watched his plants like a hawk and after a number of years he told us he was in complete agreement.
We were satisfied the roses were the same before publishing the information.
It is always good to have an analytical eye on rose identification work. Thank you for your careful observations and reasoning. I hope you are able to strike cuttings of both your roses and to eventually grow them in the same conditions and that this discussion can continue in the future. With enough time and patience, the roses do give up their answers.
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Reply #14 of 15 posted 5 days ago by HubertG
From the 'Journal des Roses' 1914, page 165

"Albert Stopford (thé) - Fleur très grande, pleine, uniflore à grands sépales, très grand pétales épais, coloris rose foncé carminé brillant, centre cuivré, pétales exterieurs carmin foncé recourbés gracieusement, bouton allongé, très bien fait, porté par une longue tige, grand feuillage, très fort bois, épines fortes; arbuste très vigoureux, très florifere (odorante). Issue de Général Schablikine et de Papa Gontier."

My translation:
Albert Stopford (Tea) - Flower very large, full, solitary with large sepals, very large thick petals, colour bright dark carmine pink, centre coppery, outer petals dark carmine recurving gracefully, long bud, very well formed, carried on a long stem, grand foliage, very strong wood, strong thorns; bush very vigorous, very floriferous (fragrant). Seedling from General Schablikine by Papa Gontier.

Note: I've translated "grand feuillage" as grand foliage rather than large foliage. Had feuilles (leaves) been used rather than feuillage (foliage) "large" might have made more sense, but I get the impression it means great/grand/good etc foliage, rather than large leaflets. Maybe someone French might correct this.

Also note the interesting description of the large sepals.


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From the Rosen-Zeitung 1899, page 29:

"Neuste Rosen für 1899.

Züchter: P. C. Nabonnand

Albert Stopford (Thee). Blume glänzend dunkelkarminrosa, Centrum kupfrig, sehr gross, gefüllt, duftend, einzelständig, langknospig. Pflanze sehr kräftig, sehr wohlr. (Général Schablikine x Papa Gontier)."

My translation:
Newest Roses for 1899.
Breeder: P. C. Nabonnand.
Albert Stopford (Tea). Flower bright dark carmine pink, centre coppery, very large, full, scented, solitary, long-budded. Plant very vigorous, very fine. (General Schablikine x Papa Gontier).


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From the Rosen-Zeitung 1899, page 54

"Albert Stopford (Nabonnand) wird durch die grosse, schöne, gefüllte, langknospige Blume ebenso wie durch die hübsche rote Farbe gefallen."

My translation:
Albert Stopford (Nabonnand) will please with its large, beautiful, full, long-budded flower as well as with the pretty red colour.
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Reply #15 of 15 posted 4 days ago by Patricia Routley
References added. Thanks HubertG
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most recent 7 days ago SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 10 MAY by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1895, page 73:

"Neuste Rosen für 1894/95

(Beschreibungen der Züchter)

Strauch wüchsig und sehr remontierend; Blume sehr gefüllt, wundervoll geformt, auf geraden Stielen; Blumenblätter dick, sehr regelmässig rund, leicht aufblühend; Farbe neu in dieser Klasse, carmoisinrot samtig purpur mit lebhaft kirsch- und feuerrotem Widerschein."

My translation:

Newest Roses for 1894/95

(Descriptions of the breeders)

Bush vigorous and very remontant; flower very double, wonderfully shaped, on straight stems; petals thick, very regularly round, opening easily; colour new in this class, crimson-red velvety purple with lively cherry-red and flame-red reflexes.
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Reply #1 of 31 posted 10 MAY by Patricia Routley
That's interesting: "petals thick, very regularly round". Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #2 of 31 posted 14 MAY by HubertG
This is the text accompanying the colour illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' in the 1896 Rosen-Zeitung, page 41

"1. Francis Dubreuil. (Thee). Dubreuil 1894.
Reichblütigkeit, kräftiger Wuchs, gute Füllung, aufrechte Haltung, elegante Form und eine dunkelblutrote Färbung hatte man bisher noch nicht unter den Theerosen in einer Sorte vereinigt gefunden. In der Dubreuil'schen Züchtung haben wir etwas Hervorragendes dieser Art erhalten, so dass der Züchter mit recht sagen konnte: Die schönste, bekannte "rote Thee". Der Strauch ist wüchsig, sehr verzweigt, dunkelbläulichgrün belaubt und sehr remontierend. Die wundervoll schön geformte mittelgrosse Blume ist sehr gefüllt, wird von geraden, festen Stielen aufrecht getragen, öffnet sich bei jeder Witterung. Die samtig carmoisin purpurrote Farbe wird durch eine feuerroten Widerschein erhellt und leidet weder durch Hitze noch durch Regen leicht. Eine als Knospe geschnittene Blume dauert im Glase Wasser wohl 8 Tage lang. Für Blumenbinderei-Geschäfte wird sie ohne Fehl eine viel begehrte und gesuchte Schnittrose sein. Ihre Massenanpflanzung kann daher nur dringend empfohlen werden. Dass sie auch wegen ihrer seltenen Vorzüge schnell erkannt wurde, beweisst eine überaus starke Nachfrage in Pflanzen, sodass dieses Frühjahr wohl in keinem Geschäfte eine kräftige Pflanz unverkauft blieb. Auch dürfte sie zu Gruppenpflanzungen Verwendung finden und grosse Wirkung erzielen, doch besorge man ihr kräftige, humusreiche, lehmige Erde. Die in den letzten Jahren in den Handel gebrachten dunkelroten Thee sind von "Francis Dubreuil" alle in den Schatten gestellt. Ob sie eine Treibrose sein wird, können wir bis jetzt noch nicht sagen.
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Reply #3 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
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Reply #4 of 31 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
I should have time to do the translation tonight, Patricia.
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Reply #5 of 31 posted 15 MAY by HubertG
My translation:

1. Francis Dubreuil. (Tea). Dubreuil 1894. Amongst the Tea Roses, one had not found freedom of flowering, strong growth, good petalage, upright held flowers, elegant shape and a dark blood-red colouring combined in the one variety until now. In this Dubreuil creation we have obtained something outstanding of this kind, so that the breeder can rightly say: the most beautiful known "red Tea". The bush is vigorous, very branched, foliaged dark bluish-green and very remontant. The wonderful beautifully shaped medium-sized flower is very double, borne upright on straight firm stems, opening in any weather. The velvety crimson purple-red colour is lit with a fire-red reflection and neither through heat nor through rain does it suffer easily. A flower cut as a bud lasts well for 8 days in a glass of water. For florist businesses it will become a very coveted and sought after cut rose without fail. Therefore their mass planting can only be highly recommended. The fact that it was also quickly recognised because of its rare merits, established an exceedingly strong demand for plants, so that this spring hardly any vigorous plant remained unsold in the stores. It should also find use for group plantings and achieve great effect, but still, one should give it strong humus-rich, loamy soil. 'Francis Dubreuil' eclipses all dark red Teas introduced into commerce in recent years. Whether it will become forcing rose, we cannot yet say.

I hope it's still English. I've tried to translate it as literally as possible without it sounding too Germanic.
It would be interesting for someone who grows this rose to do the 8 day vase-life test.
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Reply #6 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Patricia Routley
The translation added. Thanks HubertG. The 8-day test in different seasons. I have found that the well-watered autumn roses last longer.
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Reply #7 of 31 posted 15 MAY by Margaret Furness
A better test of a true Francis Dubreuil would be the scent; if it has any, it should be Tea-scented. See old references.
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Reply #8 of 31 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
There is that reference that says it has a distinct apple scent.

Patricia, I left out an 'a' in the last sentence of that translation - it should be " become a forcing rose".

If the rose grown as 'Francis Dubreuil' lasts only a few days in water then that might be an argument that it isn't the original rose.
Although I haven't grown FD (and the main reason was really that it was not meant to be the correct variety), but I have to ask, since it isn't 'Barcelona' after all, what tea is it? I have to admit that it does rather match the German descriptions - regular rounded petals, dark blue-green foliage, colour description etc.
I think it might need to be reappraised as possibly the correct variety.
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Reply #9 of 31 posted 16 MAY by Margaret Furness
No, I can't buy anyone describing the rose currently-sold-as FD, as scentless. When the designated scent-testers for the Rose Trial grounds in Adelaide Botanic Gardens are assessing new varieties, and find they need to re-set 10 (like setting white balance!), they go and stick their noses in "Not Francis Dubreuil".
The Tea book includes an illustration of FD from Rosen-Zeitung 1896, showing long pointed leaves. The authors conclude their discussion of Not FD by saying "...we just wish that we could call it a Tea!".
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Reply #10 of 31 posted 16 MAY by HubertG
Yet the illustration from Betten's Die Rose 1903 doesn't show a long bud or leaves. Which one is correct? The Betten illustration looks more realistically drawn than the Rosen-Zeitung illustration.

I'm only going by the photos I've seen, but if this was the FD introduced in the 1890's, from its habit and freedom of flowering it wouldn't have been classed as a Hybrid Perpetual, a Bourbon or any other rose class at the time. No doubt a red tea would have had a little bit of 'something else' in its breeding to give it its colour and that perhaps makes it less typical of the appearance of the 'purer' teas, but like I say, how would this particular rose be classed back then?

I've only seen it a few times in person at visits to Parramatta Park in Sydney years ago. It certainly did have a good fragrance but I couldn't describe its scent after all this time.

At least we know it came from Sangerhausen. There can't be too many candidates in the early lists that match it.
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Reply #11 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Here's an early American reference describing FD as "very fragrant":
From G. R. Gause's 1905 Catalogue of Roses (on the inside front cover)

"RED ROSE - FRANCOIS DUBREUIL.
A new red Tea Rose of unusual merit, with fine, large, double flowers, which, in color, are equal to the best of our deep-colored Hybrid Perpetuals. The flowers are large, very full and double, with thick, regularly arranged petals. Color is red, with velvety shadings; rich and very fragrant."
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Reply #12 of 31 posted 28 MAY by Margaret Furness
Interesting.
The rose photographed in 1906 isn't what is grown as FD now.
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Reply #13 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
I just uploaded the illustration of Francis Dubreuil on the cover of the Gause 1905 catalogue. Unfortunately, it's one of those catalogue illustrations which aren't really an accurate depiction but probably have some semblance of truth. It actually looks half-way between the 1906 photo and the currently grown FD.
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Reply #14 of 31 posted 28 MAY by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. I have added the reference. Is the spelling in the original text Francis or Francois?
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Reply #15 of 31 posted 28 MAY by HubertG
Your welcome. In the original text it is spelt "Francois".
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Reply #16 of 31 posted 31 MAY by Plazbo
I'm probably being dumb but are you calling it "Not Francis Dubreuil" because we aren't sure what is being sold in Australia is actually Barcelona? Or is it fairly certain it is Barcelona?

Just a little confused about whether I should be running it through my diploid lines or pairing it with something like Rhapsody In Blue instead...I'm assuming the latter based on a lot of comments on here.
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Reply #17 of 31 posted 31 MAY by HubertG
Plazbo, I'm confused too haha. Check out "David Martin's No41" which is the most likely candidate for the 1932 'Barcelona' (in fact in my opinion there is no reason to doubt that it is Barcelona).
Somehow the rose distributed as Francis Dubreuil had been confused for Barcelona in the US hence it wasn't thought to be FD, and so has become NotFD. Anyway, that's my take on it in a nutshell anyway.
I'm sure one of the Tealadies could expand on this.

I still think that it could be the original Francis Dubreuil. As I've mentioned previously, even though it has some atypical tea characteristics, it doesn't easily fall into another class either. It does match early descriptions especially the rounded regularly arranged velvety petals, and the dark bluish-green foliage. And it did come from Sangerhausen labelled as Francis Dubreuil. True, the bloom doesn't look a lot like the 1906 photo, but some of the photos here do show recurving petal edges. It certainly (to my mind) doesn't seem anything like what one would expect a Hybrid Tea given commercial release in the 1930's to be, so isn't Barcelona.

As to its ploidy, who knows? The original FD would most likely to have come through one of those early red teas like Duchess of Edinburgh which was introduced as a tea but clearly had hybrid characteristics, perhaps self pollinated and retaining enough Tea characteristics but developing the velvety red blooms. So if it was say a self pollination of a triploid that occasionally set hips, it could end up being a diploid or a tetraploid. This is just my speculation of course. Just for comparison of a similar possible breeding, look at 'Princess Bonnie' which is from a {T x (T x HP)} cross.
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Reply #18 of 31 posted 31 MAY by Margaret Furness
Sangerhausen has been through two world wars, and every big collection or garden or nursery has mislabels. Especially if the labels are small enough for the public to move around. We kept updating the labels at Renmark as new information came in, but there are still some I'm uneasy about or would change if it was worth spending more there at present. For example, what we have as Excellenz von Schubert and Merveille des Rouges are pretty clearly incorrect.
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Reply #19 of 31 posted 14 days ago by HubertG
I wonder if 'Marion Dingee' might be a possibilty for this rose. There are plenty of references online but I haven't come across a reference to its fragrance. The illustrations suggest a cupped shape and often the references describe a very dark colour. Here's the coloured plate for 'Marion Dingee' from Dingee's 1892 catalogue. Dingee's give the breeding as 'Comtesse de Casserta' x 'Duchess of Edinburgh'.
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Reply #20 of 31 posted 14 days ago by Patricia Routley
You might be on to something HubertG. The bloom shape is about right, the colour is about right, the "short compact" growth is about right.
We have:
1889 Marion Dingee (Early illustrations show a shorter bloom)
1894 Francis Dubreuil (Early illustrations, 1896 and 1906, show a taller bloom)
I'll search for 'Marion Dingee' in Australia later in the day.
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Reply #21 of 31 posted 14 days ago by HubertG
What's a bit out of place though is the lack of fragrance in the descriptions. Dingee's other red Tea was Princess Bonnie which they lauded as one of the sweetest scented roses available. One would think to promote their own rose (in Marion Dingee), if it had a good fragrance, they would at least mention its scent when it was introduced. I don't think Princess Bonnie is a contender from early references and illustrations, by the way.

It is interesting however to compare the buds in the coloured illustration I posted above with the photo Tomartyr posted on 30 Nov 2011, photo Id 187697.
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Reply #22 of 31 posted 13 days ago by billy teabag
A very quick response before a more considered one.
Reliable early Australian references to Francis Dubreuil tell us this was one of the big Teas. From memory, the 1930s reference to roses in NSW tells us it was 9 feet tall.
Even in the best conditions, with the best care and attention, the rose sold as Francis Dubreuil struggles to reach half that height.
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Reply #23 of 31 posted 13 days ago by Patricia Routley
In 1893 (four years after 'Marion Dingee' was introduced,) it was said to have a "short compact growth". The 1930s was about 60 years later. I hope you will share some of those references Billy. I probably have them, but I added 15 refs to 'Marion Dingee' yesterday and must move on. (My Francis Dubreuil' manages to make about 2 feet.)
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Reply #24 of 31 posted 12 days ago by billy teabag
The ref I was remembering is this one from George Knight's 1931 article Tea Roses in New South Wales which has already been added:
"What an opportunity is offered to some of the authorities in connection with the public gardens of the State to plant out some of the most vigorous of these old tea Roses and grow them into large shrubs. There is no more striking feature than to see a Rose bush eight or nine feet high, built in proportion and covered in bloom. I would suggest as some of the most suitable for this purpose : Corallina, Mme Charles, Dr. Grill, Francois Dubreuil, Mdlle. Christine de Noue and Mrs Dunlop Best. The latter makes a nice bush up to six feet. p104 Australian Rose Annual 1931.

The "Not Francis Dubreuil" we used to have also only managed about 2'6" in height and width before losing the will to live.
To my eye it looks like a hybrid of a China rose and something HP-ish.

I'll check to see whether I have anything else on my computer that hasn't been added to HMF and will have a look on Trove.
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Reply #25 of 31 posted 12 days ago by HubertG
Maybe another possibility to consider is 'Friedrichsruh' from 1907. It was a cross from 'Princesse de Bearn' x 'Francis Dubreuil' and appeared to be a shorter-growing bushy rose, Sangerhausen had it in their collection and gave it a 7/10 for fragrance. That's assuming of course that the rose grown as 'Friedrichsruh' at Sangerhausen now is incorrect. And despite being classed as a Hybrid Tea it had short stems and nodding flowers.
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Reply #26 of 31 posted 12 days ago by billy teabag
Worth a closer look, I think, HubertG. It's not uncommon to see mixups between roses in large collections that are close alphabetically.
Short stems and nodding flowers on a shorter plant is a good start.
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Reply #27 of 31 posted 11 days ago by HubertG
That's a good point Billy. Not only is there the possibility of them being confused if they looked similar but also as their names both start with FR, a mixup could have occurred in the cataloguing. Possibly.
There are quite a few references for 'Friedrichsruh' in the Rosen-Zeitung. One describes 'Souvenir de Clos Vougeot' as in the style of a paeony "like Friedrichsruh". I'm not sure how paeony-like FD is. Perhaps a bit.
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Reply #28 of 31 posted 9 days ago by Patricia Routley
I've added a few more refs for 'Friedrichsruh'.
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Reply #29 of 31 posted 9 days ago by true-blue
Hubert, sorry to barge in.
I've been reading this thread with a lot of interest.

However, I doubt if Francis Dubreuil was a fragrant rose. If you check the original advertisement in Journal des roses, thee's no mention of that:
Here is the text, translated from the original:

Mr. F. Dubreuil, rose-grower, 146, route de Grenoble, of Montplaisir-Lyon has two new roses for sale; the descriptions follow:
Francis Dubreuil (Tea). — A robuste and very remontant shrub, the flower is very full, of an admirable form, upright on rigid peduncles at the tips of the canes, with thick petals, very regularly rounded, in gracefully developed curves of a cup with softened contours, opening with extreme ease, of a color absolutely novel amongst the Teas, crimson red, velvety purple with vivid cherry-amaranth highlights, the bud is an elongated ovoid shape of great beauty.
Due to the perfection of its form and the intensity of its purple and amaranth hues, this variety constitutes the most beautiful red Tea Rose known
This variety has been awarded: 1) the silver medal of the Society of Practical Horticulture of the Rhône; 2) a prize at the Universal Exposition at Lyon, concourse of Jue 1894; 3) a first-class certificate from the Lyonnaise Horticultural Association.
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Reply #30 of 31 posted 8 days ago by HubertG
True-blue, no need to apologise. :-) The omission of the description of a fragrance when any rose is introduced is rather suspicious of it not having much scent. However an omission doesn't necessarily mean it didn't have a fragrance. There are other references which say it was fragrant, but when they come from catalogues trying to sell stock, you need to be a bit discerning, I suppose, as to whether they are exaggerations. The early apple fragrance description intrigues me.

Patricia, wow, you've been busy adding to 'Friedrichsruh'! Last I looked there were only half a dozen or so references. I want to add some more from the Rosen-Zeitung but maybe not till the weekend. One describes the buds and leaves in detail (including a bud photo), another says how it is mildew-free and the fragrance is intoxicating and emits particularly after rain. The mildew-free description is interesting because the few photos here of 'Friedrichsruh' from Sangerhausen show a somewhat mildew affected plant! (well it looks that way to me).

What's interesting about 'Friedrichsruh' is that it is a child of 'Francis Dubreuil'. If only we had an inexpensive genetic test to find out how much two roses are related to each other!
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Reply #31 of 31 posted 7 days ago by true-blue
Hubert, if memory serves me well, none of the French sources, noted FD as fragrant, hence my conclusion that is most probably not fragrance worthy, hence my conclusion.
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