HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
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billy teabag
most recent yesterday HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
Tea IDs are often messy. I'm told that the rose sold as Dr Grill in Australia is usually William R Smith, and the true Dr Grill may be the rose sold in Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc.
Elsewhere it is also complicated: see the description page. "'Dr. Grill' in USA is not the original rose. 'Mme Lombard' is sold in Europe sometimes as 'Dr. Grill'."
Reply #1 of 8 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
Reply #3 of 8 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
Reply #4 of 8 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
Reply #5 of 8 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 2 days ago by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
Reply #8 of 8 posted yesterday by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
most recent 7 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 8 days ago by HubertG
My huge bush is very prickly. I'm not sure why it is described as being thornless or nearly so.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 8 days ago by billy teabag
You are right! It is definitely well-armed.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 7 days ago by Patricia Routley
Probably because of the 1936 reference which said " few thick prickles".
Armature now corrected. Thanks to you both.
most recent 31 JAN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 31 JAN by billy teabag
Sunrise Flowers International Ltd. was an enterprise of Peter Gibson and Paddy Elphick based in a northern Perth (western Australia) suburb in the late 1900s. The 'Kooiana' series of roses (including the lovely 'Kooiana Daybreak') were patented and introduced through this company.
Two of the Kooiana roses were also offered under synonyms as commemorative and fund-raising roses, eg as is already noted on HMF, 'Kooiana Moonlight' was offered as Guildford Grammar School's 'Guildfordian' and 'Kooiana Butterscotch' was St Hilda's Anglican School for Girls' commemorative rose, named 'St. Hilda's'.
Their 'Glorious Heritage' was donated as a rose to commemorate the International Year of Older Persons (1999) and a competition to decide the eventual name was won by 79-year-old Mrs Florence Glasgow of North Beach, Perth.
In the light of this I am wondering whether 'Sid's Rose' might have been donated to raise funds for the Sudden Infant Death Syndrome research foundation. I can find nothing to support this (or anything else about the rose) but will add anything relevant about this rose, Sunrise Flowers, Peter Gibson and Paddy Elphick that comes to light.
Peter Gibson has a profile here at HMF, but Paddy Elphick doesn't. A day's Googling has failed to turn up much in the way of useful biographical material. Of interest is that in 1981 he won a Churchill Fellowship to study developments in the cultivation, disease control, irrigation and marketing techniques, in the growing of proteaceous plants for the International flower trade – Sth Africa, UK, Holland.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 31 JAN by Patricia Routley
Peter Gibson was a long-time cardio-thoracic surgeon at Royal Perth Hospital.

The Australian Rose Annual 1981 page 27 commemorating The T. A. Stewart Memorial Award 1980 says Dr. H. R. (Bob) Elphick was awarded a C.B.E. for his outstanding service to Thoracic and General Medicine.

I can imagine these two men knew each other well and talked roses over open chests and beating hearts.
See also the ARA 2006, page 74 for Dr. Elphick's obituary, written by Jean and Arthur Waghorn. I am sure they will know if Paddy Elphick was Dr. Elphick - or perhaps his wife?
Reply #2 of 3 posted 31 JAN by billy teabag
Thanks very much Patricia.
(and having spent a bit of time in op theatres when I was younger, I can well imagine the scene you paint.)
Reply #3 of 3 posted 31 JAN by Margaret Furness
This post deleted by user.
most recent 31 JAN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 31 JAN by billy teabag
As noted in the patent application, this rose has a tendency to produce orange-red blooms in startling contrast to its creamy yellow blooms. I have seen this on more than one plant.

'Kooiana Moonlight' is a sport of the light pink 'Gerdo', which itself sported from Kordes' orange-red 'Mercedes' and the introducers noted that this colour anomaly appears to be a reversion to the colour of 'Mercedes'.
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