HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 3 OCT SHOW ALL
Initial post 21 FEB
* This post deleted by user *
Reply #1 of 54 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
Although I can't be sure if the rose I grow is the real Dr Grill, I can't see it as being William R Smith. Although I haven't grown that rose, it is described almost invariably in the early references as white (or creamy white) blushed with pink. I can't see anyone using that description to describe the rose I grow as Dr Grill. It also doesn't look like many of the photos of William R Smith here. The rose grown is Australia as Comtesse Riza du Parc from the photos here looks too compact and bushy to match the angular semi-hybrid tea habit early references describe and that my Dr Grill has. Also, mine does have the 'hay' scent that is uniquely described in an early Hazlewood catalogue.
I wish we could do DNA testing on this rose and compare it to Antoine Rivoire and Mme Abel Chatenay, offspring of Dr Grill.
Reply #2 of 54 posted 22 FEB by Margaret Furness
Where did your Dr Grill come from? A year or two ago I would have been itching to grow it at Renmark beside all the other Teas we've gathered, but the future of that property and its maintenance are so uncertain that there's no point in planting more there. Nevertheless it would be nice to grow it somewhere where it could be compared directly.
Reply #3 of 54 posted 22 FEB by HubertG
I'm pretty sure that I bought it at Bowen Mountain (Honeysuckle Nursery?) as a potted specimen, maybe 8-9 years ago. The buds and flowers come more coppery yellow in the shade and pink in the sun. I'm pretty sure its first flowers after the nursery were coppery yellow - I'll try to find some really old photos of it to post. The colour is rather variable.
Reply #4 of 54 posted 22 FEB by Patricia Routley
Check out the Note on the "Comtesse Riza du Parc (in commerce as, in Australia)" page. You might find it valuable to photograph the bud and pedicel exactly side-on, as the asymmetry mentioned in the Note is only slight.
Reply #5 of 54 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
The receptacles on the Australian 'Comtesse Riza du Parc' look rather ovoid whereas the receptacles on my Dr Grill really don't constrict towards the base of the sepals. They don't look to be the same rose to me. Also from the descriptions Australian CRdP appears to readily set many hips, and my Dr Grill does set hips but not prolifically. The flowers are fully double and I think you need a keen bee to get to the stigmas. I've never seen mildew on mine either but that could just be growing conditions.
Here's a bud I took just 2 weeks ago. It isn't directly in profile but it gives you an idea. You can see from the leaves it needs a feed. I'll post some photos of developing hips on the weekend. Luckily, I'm a bit lazy regarding deadheading.

Incidentally, I just uploaded a very good early photograph of William R Smith. The bud shown in this detailed black and white photo is rather stout. I don't think it's my Dr Grill.
Reply #6 of 54 posted 23 FEB by billy teabag
What's your rose like in the balled blooms department HubertG? Are they usually as clean as the ones in your photos or does it make unsightly ones when conditions aren't to its liking?
You describe the plant habit as angular semi-hybrid tea - would you say the stems are relatively stout and strong?

Unless the bud in your photo is atypical, I'd agree it's definitely not "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" - though that rose takes regular and diligent light snickering to achieve a compact and bushy habit. Left to its own devices "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" is an angular and ungainly rose - a very prickly one too, with mean prickles right up to the bracts just beneath the bud. The receptacles are invariably constricted at the top - and it likes to make a large hip full of seeds for every untrimmed bloom. Like you, I would love to see a DNA comparison of the various Dr Grill contenders with Mme Abel Chatenay. David Ruston said he has seen five and he liked the William R Smith one the best!

Our attempts to trace the provenance of the roses sold by Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery were unsuccessful. Most nurseries we contacted were happy to share that information but the proprietor did not respond to our requests. We understand that the proprietor received many of her roses from Heather and Roy Rumsey, but I cannot say for certain that Rumsey's Nursery was the source of her Dr Grill.

For what it's worth, Heather Rumsey imported a rose named Dr Grill from Sangerhausen in the late 1970s/ early 1980s which went on to be widely distributed among Australian rose nurseries. This proved to be 'William R. Smith'.

The pedicel of your rose looks smooth in your photo of the bud - would you mind checking whether it's completely smooth or if it has some stalked glands or small bristles? Another thing to check is whether the hips contain any seeds or if they are just full of fibrous material.

Thanks for the photo of 'William R. Smith'.
Reply #7 of 54 posted 23 FEB by HubertG
BIlly Teabag, I've never really seen my bush ball as such - it does open well - but the petal edges are frequently slightly marked and brownish. Not too badly to ruin the flower's overall appearance but it's nicer to take a photo of a spotless rose. Even the ones I've posted with rain drops on them still opened well.

The stems are slightly thicker than the average tea, but I wouldn't say the stems are particularly short, more medium length. It's somewhat ungainly because it tends to throw shoots up from anywhere on the plant. I prune it moderately. otherwise it would get quite big. If this is the real Dr Grill I imagine it would get some of its vigour from its Noisette parent Ophirie, although I'm only speculating. The leaves are a bit larger than an average tea as well. I don't think it's the Australian version of Comtesse Riza du Parc either.

That bud I posted is fairly typical. I've never noticed any glands on the stem but I'll check tomorrow, and I've never opened up one of the hips before so I can't comment on the seed content.

Here's a photo that I wasn't going to post but you can see what I mean about the petals being slightly marked. This is fairly typical. I picked a particularly large 'Agnes Smith' and photographed it next to my Dr Grill for size comparison. You can also see the difference in the two pinks, Agnes (left) being clear and Dr Grill (right) being more fawn. Also, the petals of my Dr Grill usually fall off fairly cleanly, but the centre petals come away first often leaving just the outside five petals on till last.

You are welcome about the W R Smith photo. It's a real find because it must date to the time of its introduction and it is very clear too.
Reply #8 of 54 posted 24 FEB by HubertG
Here are a few hips of my Dr Grill. One I estimate to be from the October flush, so about 4 months old and just beginning to colour a bit. It's about 2.5cm across. The others are developing hips from only about 5 weeks ago, so are a lot smaller.
The stems are indeed smooth - no bristles anywhere. It isn't overly thorny - the thorns in the photos are typical. I will wait until the hips are ripe before I open them because I thought it would be fun to try and germinate some seeds.
Reply #9 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I've just posted a few more photos of my Dr Grill from 2016 which show a more coppery yellow predominating. They are all from my one bush.
Reply #10 of 54 posted 26 FEB by Patricia Routley
Blooms of many tea roses are quite changeable in their colour. Take a look at Billy Teabag's photo of ' William R. Smith' at Araluen Botanic Park, near Perth, Western Australia, Spring 2011. You need to photograph your whole bush, showing the skeleton of it if you can.
Reply #11 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Even if William R Smith comes yellowy at times, my Dr Grill is never white or creamy white flushed pink, so I still can't see it as being W R Smith.
Billy's WRSmith has rather brownish red flower stems like in the George C Thomas 1914 photo, mine are always green. This could just be a cultivation thing - I don't know. I don't think it's your Amelia Anderson either because mine doesn't ball. Some of the photos here of WRSmith certainly look as if they are different roses. There seems to be a lot of confusion around.
It's interesting that Jedmar has posted a Charles Dingee from Sangerhausen and the Rumsey's imported a Dr Grill from Sangerhausen as well. At least this suggests they had two separate roses.
Reply #12 of 54 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
And Margaret's pink ones!!!
That plant at Araluen is magnificent! There are two really strong and healthy plants at Araluen - one came to them as "BL Amelia Anderson" and the other as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]".
The two plants in my garden are not as pleasing. One came from the same source as Araluen's "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and the other was propagated from a very old plant of 'W.R. Smith' in a garden in Guildford. They produce absolutely beautiful blooms at times but have been slow to build up their skeletons and they look very ungainly and lop-sided compared with the bushes at Araluen. They seem to be heavy feeders and are one of the first roses in the garden to tell me I'm late with their food.
I usually either cut the blooms or deadhead them, so will leave the next ones on to see whether they make any hips here.
Reply #13 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
My Dr Grill is never THAT pink!
Billy, do you have any photos of the flowers of the old plant from Guildford of W R Smith?

So your photo of William R Smith (photo ID 184609) is Dr Grill from Sangerhausen?
Reply #14 of 54 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
I haven't seen them that pink on mine either (yet) but Teas are full of surprises and as soon as you say 'never', they are likely to do something bizarre. Most Teas vary in colour and form with the seasons but the really odd variations often happen a few weeks after extreme fluctuations in temperature or extreme weather events.
I have slides of the old plant in Guildford but haven't had them digitised. You can take my word for it that it's the same as "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" and "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson".
I'll have a look through my photo files to see if there are any photos of the plant propagated from it.

(Yes - the provenance of 'W.R. Smith' photographed at Araluen can be traced back to the rose Heather Rumsey received from Sangerhausen as Dr Grill.)
Reply #15 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
Thanks. An old known specimen of W R Smith would be very interesting to view.
When I search for Bishop's Lodge Amelia Anderson it just takes me to William R Smith. They are definitely the same rose?
Reply #16 of 54 posted 26 FEB by billy teabag
Yes. David Ruston grew them for many years and so it was possible to compare the established plants over the seasons in his garden. By chance, plants of "Bishops Lodge Amelia Anderson" and "Dr Grill [ex Sangerhausen]" were positioned side by side in Melville's nursery near Perth, and we were able to study them closer to home as well.
Reply #17 of 54 posted 26 FEB by Margaret Furness
It's a survivor in old gardens in at least four states. We have as synonyms "Edna Stapleton's Tea" (SA - that's where mine came from, via Pat) and "East Nanango Forestry Tea" (Qld).
Reply #18 of 54 posted 26 FEB by HubertG
I just uploaded a couple of old catalogue photos of "Charles Dingee". The photos that Billy Teabag just posted of the Guildford WR Smith bears a striking resemblance (and Billy's tea is creamy white and pink - and very beautiful).
Now I want to grow this Guildford W R Smith.
Reply #19 of 54 posted 27 FEB by HubertG
Billy Teabag's W R Smith from Guildford looks most like Jean Harrison's photos of her W R Smith.

Do you know if this particular Guildford specimen is in commerce as I'd like to grow it? Also, it would be fabulous to upload those 2 photos under William R Smith, since they only appear under Q & C.
Reply #20 of 54 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
My specimen of Dr Grill was in fact purchased from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002, not 8-9 years ago as I mentioned earlier. I found an old dated photo.
Reply #21 of 54 posted 6 MAR by HubertG
Just thinking about the possible origin of my Dr Grill. I bought mine from Honeysuckle Cottage in 2002. Once I also visited another nursery which was nearby to Honeysuckle either at Richmond or Windsor (I can't remember it's name either). It was run by a very elderly gent. Basically it existed of his house surrounded by a paddock full of potted roses. He had the roses I enquired about ready for me when I arrived (Jessie Clark was one). Looking around I remember he had some unusual early Hybrid Tea varieties I hadn't seen in any other nursery. There was a beautiful Columbia that I wish I had purchased at the time, and others I can't remember the names of now. I always had the impression that he had grown these old HT's for years or had sourced them locally. I don't remember him having Dr Grill specifically but I do wonder whether he had this from an old local bush and if Honeysuckle Cottage had purchased some of their stock including their Dr Grill from him because he was so close to them.
This is speculation of course, but I just can't see my Dr Grill being William R Smith; they look too different.
My bush currently has about 10 hips on it, and about the same non-developing or withered hips which doesn't add up if W R Smith is not meant to set hips. Plus my Dr Grill doesn't ball.
Reply #22 of 54 posted 7 MAR by HubertG
Some of the photos of Ah Mow look very much like my Dr Grill, although those petals look a bit more delicate and the foliage looks different.
Reply #23 of 54 posted 14 MAR by HubertG
Just an update on the question of hips. This is the hip from my Dr, Grill that I posted above on 24 Feb (the first photo). There were 10 normal looking seeds inside. I'll plant them and see if there is a good germination rate. There are about 9 other hips on my bush right now that aren't ripe yet.
Reply #24 of 54 posted 14 MAR by billy teabag
HubertG, how does your Dr Grill compare to "Comtesse Riza du Parc [in commerce as]"?
Are the receptacles always the semi-globular shape seen on your bud photo, or are they sometimes more globular like those in the old portraits?
Reply #25 of 54 posted 14 MAR by HubertG
Billy, they aren't the same rose judging from the photos. Mine always has that semi-globular receptacle and perfectly smooth glandless stems, whereas (as you note) the NotCRdP has that distinctive oval receptacle. Also, my Dr Grill flowers are usually solitary (maybe a cluster of 3-4 on a water shoot) whereas 3- 4 flowers per shoot appears to be the norm on the photos of NotCRdP.
Look at the photo by David Elliott (ID176376) of the Dr Grill growing in the Parc de la Tete d'Or. Even though that photo was posted on its side (lol) that looks like my Dr Grill and gives you an idea of the awkward habit that I imagine comes from the Noisette parent. The flowers in the background look the same as mine too. You can also see a few hips if you zoom in. If the NotCRdP sets hips on just about every flower that doesn't sound like the description of Dr Grill in the Rosen-Zeitung that describes an enthusiast being excited over 4-5 ripe hips on their Dr Grill.
How does the NotCRdP smell? My Dr Grill does have that unusual hay scent. I could never quite place what it smelt like until I read the hay reference. Then it was an 'Aha!' moment. I hadn't smelt hay in years and just couldn't put my finger on it.
Reply #26 of 54 posted 14 MAR by Margaret Furness
Well, if you feel inclined to send a few cuttings this way... Who knows, a miracle might happen, and after 4 years of rumours of "imminent purchase of Ruston's" it might just happen. And the air would be full of flying pigs.
Reply #27 of 54 posted 15 MAR by HubertG
Margaret, sure I'll send cuttings to you ladies but it'll have to wait till I collect the hips because I want to try and germinate them. In fact, using the last flush I made a few crosses using Lorraine Lee pollen and a few others. I've become intrigued with my Dr Grill because I didn't know it was so in doubt.
Reply #28 of 54 posted 15 MAR by Margaret Furness
Thank you - when the time comes, contact me via private message for my address. Good luck with the crosses!
Reply #29 of 54 posted 15 MAR by HubertG
Sure Margaret, no worries. Thanks!

Billy, I didn't answer your enquiry about the old portraits.
The receptacles are depicted differently in all three pictures. My Dr. Grill receptacle is closest to the Journal des Roses depiction, but I think my flower form is closest to the Moon painting with the outer "shell like" petals falling away displaying the centre well . The Rosen Zeitung bud receptacle is rather narrow and odd. To be honest I don't think these can be used as any sort of real botanical proof of receptacles, but they are interesting. The accurate depiction of a bud receptacle probably wasn't the greatest priority for the artist whose main purpose was to depict the flower form and colour. That Moon bud could have just been painted in for artistic balance after the main flowers were finished. The Rosen-Zeitung portrait is the hardest from which to make any sort of botanical sense. Also, I think the medium the artist used could make a big difference to the final result. The Moon painting looks like a gouache, but I really don't know how these pictures were technically reproduced back then. Maybe you could look at some of Moon's other paintings of confirmed roses to see how accurately he paints those bud details in them.
Reply #30 of 54 posted 21 MAR by billy teabag
Moon's rose paintings in The Garden were described as naturalistic in style. I have not grown all the roses he painted and cannot speak about the accuracy of the portraits of those varieties but the ones I do know well such as 'Anna Olivier' are botanically faithful portraits.
If only your rose had receptacles matching those in Moon's portrait of 'Dr Grill'!
If, as you say, the receptacles are consistently semi-globular, this point of difference brings doubt.
Does you rose have darker coloured petal reverses?
Reply #33 of 54 posted 22 MAR by HubertG
Maybe if the "Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" does smell like dried grass it could be Dr Grill.
My rose when it is in pinker mode has a slight difference between both sides of the petals (the backs being slightly darker) but it isn't a pronounced contrast. You can see it in some of my bud photos. You can also get splashes of pink on the base of the reverse.

I noticed that the illustrations of Hugo Roller in The Garden and the Journal des Roses are obviously copied one from the other. Moon's portrait was published first earlier in the same year. It just goes to show that the artist didn't always have a bunch of fresh flowers in front of them when they were drawn. That's why I wouldn't place too much faith in those small details such as the receptacle shape, as there is always artistic licence at play. Note the upside down prickle on the Moon Dr Grill picture. If we took that too literally we'd never identify Dr Grill!

Also I was reading in the Rosen-Zeitung what essentially amounted to an apology by their artist Lena Schmidt Michel, in which she mentions that people are disappointed when they buy a rose based on the drawing and it turns out looking differently.
Reply #36 of 54 posted 22 MAR by billy teabag
I agree with you that some portraits are deceptive. Apart from the skill of the artist and their commitment to accuracy and the skill of the printer, there are the limitations of the printing processes and materials in play.
It's good that the roses themselves can be the final authority. If we compare roses that have undisputed identities (there are a few that have never lost their names) with the various portraits we come to know which artists are the most accurate and trustworthy.
Some portraits are definitely idealised and some are positively unreliable re detail while others are incredibly accurate.
Alfred Parsons' watercolours show great attention to detail and capture both the natural impression and the finer detail, though the colour reproduction failed them during the printing process.
Accuracy in images was clearly important in many horticultural publications. The first time Moon's portrait of Mme de Watteville was published in The Garden in 1888, the colour reproduction was considered unsatisfactory, so it was republished later that year with notes about this accompanying the plates. (see 'Mme de Watteville' photos and captions on HMF for the details.)
Other examples spring to mind too, where accompanying texts draw readers' attention to inaccuracies in detail, accuracy and labelling
I'm always amazed at the accuracy of the rose portraits in the Wills' cigarette cards. Most of the rose sets are chromolithographs - essentially tiny dot paintings but some are more recognisable than photographs. I read somewhere that accuracy in the cigarette card sets was very important as the eagle eye of the public was always alert to errors and quick to let the cigarette company know in hope of reward.
Reply #31 of 54 posted 21 MAR by billy teabag
"Not Comtesse Riza du Parc" has a base fragrance that is like dried vegetation. Sometimes there are additional notes that vary in intensity and character. Sometimes the dried grass smell has faint floral, fruity or aromatic notes - varying with conditions, time of day etc.
Reply #32 of 54 posted 21 MAR by Jay-Jay
Dried grass smell is called cumarine.
Galium odoratum or the sweetscented bedstraw or sweet woodruff has this scent when contused.
And as we are providing recipes: Very nice in fruit-bowls(fruit-cup) or white wine(German tradition. They call this herb Waldmeister: Master of the woods)
Reply #34 of 54 posted 22 MAR by billy teabag
Thank you Jay Jay. It would be wonderful to have a trained and educated nose to help with those many maddening 'What IS that familiar smell? moments in the rose garden.
Reply #35 of 54 posted 22 MAR by Jay-Jay
A good nose is indeed often a bless, but can be a handicap when one is too sensitive as for the nowadays washing detergent- and softener-smells.(I won't call those scented, for me those smells are brutal, invasive and irritate eyes, nose and mind)
...And a handicap (or no go) when wanting to visit people that "odorated" themselves and/or their homes/bathrooms.
Reply #37 of 54 posted 14 APR by HubertG
I wanted to post this photo that I took today (14/4/18) of my 'Dr. Grill' which shows a group of three hips. New shoots have come out from the base of the hip stalks, and the hips still hold on. These are probably from flowers from late January. I've done a few intentional crosses since then, and only two hips didn't take, so it does seem to set hips quite readily.
Reply #38 of 54 posted 30 SEP by HubertG
Having discovered a new photo of some 'Dr. Grill' blooms, I'm even more inclined to think that my "Dr. Grill" from Honeysuckle Nursery is the real thing. I've managed to procure a bush of William R. Smith that was sold as a Dr. Grill, and although its buds haven't opened yet, I can already tell from the leaves, growth, buds etc that it isn't the same as the rose I grow as 'Dr. Grill'. I can definitely recognise my Dr. Grill in this old photo. Compare the lower bloom in the old photo to Photo Id: 313127
Reply #39 of 54 posted 30 SEP by Margaret Furness
It's exciting to think that the real deal may till be in Aus. I look forward to trying it some time! Ideally early Dec. please.
Reply #40 of 54 posted 30 SEP by HubertG
By all means. I took cuttings in sand this winter. Some are shooting but I don't want to disturb them yet. I'll definitely put you on the reservation list lol. I'm keen to spread it around.
Reply #41 of 54 posted 30 SEP by HubertG
Also, the photo of the Dr. Grill in the Royal Botanic Gardens in Sydney shows a magnificent, large specimen. I keep hacking mine back because it's in a cramped space, but I'm going to try and grow a new specimen and allow it to spread naturally.
Reply #42 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Friends who grow cuttings in the ground say to leave them for a year: I gave up in-ground cuttings due to the effort of digging them out. Amazing what Veilchenblau can do in a year. Not sure whether yours are in-ground or in pots, but either way, I'm sure you're right not to disturb them.
I was thinking more of scrounging a cutting or two and a budstick, to try an each-way bet, if your bush can spare enough. There may be things on my plant list you'd like material from, in exchange.
Reply #43 of 54 posted 1 OCT by HubertG
Yes Margaret, I'd be happy to send you cutting and budwood material in early December. My cuttings in sand were in pots; I just found that if I used cutting or seed mix too many rotted off. I haven't had a history of great success with cuttings in general anyway, so I'm only too happy if you can propagate this plant for yourself and eventually others.
Reply #44 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Thank you. It's important to spread the rarities around.
Reply #45 of 54 posted 1 OCT by billy teabag
Is there any way you can discover the provenance of your Dr Grill HubertG?
I would very much like to grow this at some time in the future.
Reply #48 of 54 posted 1 OCT by HubertG
I simply bought it as 'Dr. Grill' at Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery back in 2002. I have no idea from where they obtained it. I'm pretty sure they've closed down now. I did mention earlier that I suspected they could have obtained it from a close-by nursery which sold some other rarities such as Korovo and Columbia but that was pure speculation on my part. That nursery was Gretchen Wheen's nursery (I found some old tags of roses I bought there) but I don't know if they sold a 'Dr. Grill' at all.

I guess that there is always the possibility that this rose was in fact the correct 'Dr. Grill' imported from Sangerhausen into Australia, and having been perhaps incorrectly identified as 'W. R. Smith' it has become totally confused and substituted with that rose in nurseries here over time. However, again this is speculation. From the Australian references it appears to be long-lived, and from what I've read in European references it seems relatively cold hardy, so perhaps it did survive in Germany and wasn't mislabelled after all.

Billy, I'm happy to send you struck plants when I have some.
Reply #52 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Gretchen Wheen was the lady who introduced AI of bees to Australia (the mind boggles). She certainly had some rare roses. Bruce of Glenorie nursery tried to salvage some for HRIAI a few years ago, but the garden had been let go during her last illness, and it was impossible to identify many of the plants. He did save an Aus poly, E N Ward, 1919, which is now at Werribee.
Reply #54 of 54 posted 3 OCT by HubertG
I guess that's even more encouraging that it might be the correct rose.
Reply #55 of 54 posted 3 OCT by Patricia Routley
The rose would have been passed from one nursery to the other. Look at the post codes.
Honeysuckle at Bowen Mountain 2753
Gretchen Wheen, Richmond, near the Hawkesbury River 2753

It is of interest to look at the Honeysuckle refs for ‘Dr. Grill’. She listed it in 1992, 1995, 1998 (Tea Roses came out in 2008) and she did not list it in 2010.
Reply #46 of 54 posted 1 OCT by billy teabag
I couldn't agree more J-J!
Olfactory assault and confusion in every room of the house and 'unscented' products fetching a premium price. A mad, mad world.
Reply #47 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Andrew from Dolton
Woodruff and lady's bedstraw along with meadow sweet (Filipendula ulmaria) are also very good strewing herbs. In past times people would put them on their floors and the smell would be agreeable and the herbs would also help deter pests like fleas and moth.
There is a shop you will find in most large towns called Lush that sells scented candles and soaps and other smelly stuff. I can detect the odour oozing out from it from several shops away and I instantly start a headache and a feeling of sickness, if I actually went into the shop I would be really ill.
Reply #49 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Jay-Jay
"High Five"!
Reply #50 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Margaret Furness
Finally found it! The recent posts follow 31-35.
Reply #51 of 54 posted 1 OCT by HubertG
Jay-Jay, is that a high five for Andrew from Dolton having a sensitive nose, or a high five for possibly finding the correct Dr.Grill? lol.
Reply #53 of 54 posted 1 OCT by Jay-Jay
High five to You, for finding the real-one... and I meant shake hands with Andrew as a companion "sniffer"!
most recent 4 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 9 MAY by HubertG
I have my doubts about whether the rose I grow as 'Papa Gontier' (from Ross Roses) really is the correct variety.
Mine never sets hips. Nabonnand (who bred this rose) used it as a seed parent for quite a few varieties, and as dedicated crosses too, not just as randomly gathered hips. Also, 'Lady Hillingdon' is supposed to have PapaG as its seed parent as well.
I remember reading quite an old reference in one of the rose annuals (1950's, 60's?) that it was a triploid, which is all good for my rose, but doesn't make a lot of sense if Nabonnands were actively pollinating it.

Also, the commonest characteristic in the early descriptions is its very long pointed bud. I can get longish buds in cooler months but no longer than other tea roses introduced at the time. During the warmer months the flowers actually come very small and are rather irregular in shape. The early descriptions of a very large flower just don't match. The few photos that exist don't really match either. It's hard to imagine the plant I grow being used as a florists' rose, even by late 19th century standards.

So I'm in two minds about whether this is correct. Does anyone else's 'Papa Gontier' set hips? Has anyone else had doubts about this rose before?

Another thing is that Papa Gontier's sport 'Rainbow' resembles the early descriptions (apart from the stripes of course) but doesn't resemble my rose, in flower form etc.
Reply #1 of 13 posted 9 MAY by Margaret Furness
The Tea book says "hip small, globular, yellow to orange". Its photo of the bud looks like yours.
Reply #2 of 13 posted 9 MAY by HubertG
Thanks Margaret. It also says "only an occasional small, yellow hip matures, containing one or two seeds.".
There are seven offspring listed here with Papa Gontier as the seed parent, five of which are Nabonnand roses. I guess the Nabonnands were just very persistent in making crosses.

I also felt the shape of the rose didn't quite match the early photos, and some descriptions such as the 6cm long bud and 5" open flower ones seemed discordant.
Also the 1880's Nabonnand catalogues describe the centre as shaded yellow, which I can only see on one Papa Gontier photo here, and an old illustration, but never on mine (but which also seems to occur on 'Rainbow').
Reply #3 of 13 posted 10 MAY by billy teabag
If yours isn't especially prickly, you may have something else.
Reply #4 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Quite possibly, but mine does rather look like the other Australian Papa Gontiers here.

Does anyone who grows Papa Gontier get flowers up to 12-13cm across like the 'Journal des Roses' describes?
Or gets yellow in the base?
Reply #5 of 13 posted 10 MAY by billy teabag
Flower size is generally a bit 'how long is a piece of string'-ish with Teas. It depends on whether they are maiden plants, chopped back hard or lightly trimmed (or not trimmed at all); whether they open quickly in heat or slowly in cooler weather; whether grown under cover or the open air.
My 'Papa Gontier' has yellow petal nubs lightening to pale, creamy yellow in the eye zone.
Reply #6 of 13 posted 10 MAY by Rockhill
The Tea Rose book gives the size of 'Papa Gontier' flowers as 10-15 cms and when conditions are favourable my very big, long-established bush does have flowers that are up to 15 cms in width. The buds are long and pointed and open quickly, the irregular just-double flowers are deep carmine-pink to paler pink, variable in shape and the stems are prickly. All the other 'Papa Gontier's that I have seen in Australia are the same. There are plenty of stamens and carpals and it looks like a very fertile rose. The fact that it only sets an occasional hip is probably due to genetic complications resulting from its being triploid. As for its being a florists’s rose, I have found if picked before they begin to open on the bush and put into a vase, they last very well as cut flowers. On HMF there are a few pale pink flowers that do not look much like what we call 'Papa Gontier' here. Overall, I think that the rose I grow as ‘Papa Gontier’ very well matches the early French descriptions and the rose recognised as being 'Papa Gontier' by the Friends of Nabonnand Roses.
Reply #7 of 13 posted 10 MAY by Margaret Furness
I think the Papa Gontier at Renmark was imported many decades ago by Alex Ross, and passed on to David Ruston. From there it was likely to have been the major source of budwood in Australia.
Reply #9 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Margaret, probably all the Papa Gontiers in Australia are from that same source (unless some old known specimen has been discovered here) but whether it is the correct variety or not was what I was questioning.
Reply #8 of 13 posted 10 MAY by HubertG
Rockhill, thanks, that's encouraging to know someone does get large flowers.
Reply #10 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Patricia Routley
I would go along with 15cm for 'Papa Gontier'. That pen in my Oct 16, 2010 photo (158840) measures 13.5c. My plant does not grow very well, possibly being set back in its youth by a small shrub which smothered it.

I haven't really done any homework on these roses, but I would look ar two roses and their sports: I wonder about the difference between 'Improved Rainbow' and 'Mme Driout' and it may be the height.

'Papa Gontier' 1882
'Rainbow' 1889 (broad stripes')
'Improved Rainbow' c1893 (fine stripes)

'Reine Marie Henriette' (a climber)
'Mme. Driout' 1901 (A climber)
Reply #11 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Rockhill
At one time, Patricia, my 'Papa Gontier' plant measured about 5 metres wide by 3 metres high but I had to cut it back before it took over that part of my garden. This is just part of what it looked like in its prime.
Reply #12 of 13 posted 11 MAY by Patricia Routley
How absolutely wonderful. Good gardener. Good conditions.
But I am thinking of the height of 'Papa Gontier's sport/s and I will respond further in 'Rainbow's file.
Reply #13 of 13 posted 4 SEP by HubertG
I'm beginning to wonder if the rose sold in Australia as 'Papa Gontier' could in fact be 'Rose d'Evian'.
'Rose d'Evian has the same contrasting colours on the inner and reverse of the petals, large blooms, long buds, dense bushy growth.
most recent 2 SEP SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Mistydowns are stocking this one now

Also, I'm no expert but the Tea rose book describes this one as tall and upright, which in their parlance means around 2 metres or so, while descriptions of 'Princesse de Sagan' say it is a small bush of up to 80 cm.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
David Elliott's photo of a bush labelled P de S at Lyon looks more like the 2m, but of course it may not be correctly identified.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Jane Z
Height, width & depth of between 1.8-2m would be expected for "Camnethan Cherry Red" in most areas where Teas grow. For whatever reason, sizes given in some Australian catalogues do not reflect the growth that 'local' conditions will produce. Photo's taken July 2006 central west NSW Australia
Reply #3 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
Yes I've noticed that about sizes in catalogues. Mistydowns often seems to give sizes that make sense for a youngish bush in a cooler climate, or for a heavily pruned bush, but when other sources are checked they'll often indicate rampant growth and up to twice the size, depending.

I have a suspicion that some nurseries rely mainly on customers who have suburban gardens, and don't want to scare off the punters, so give sizes that indicate what it can be kept to without killing it instead of sizes that the thing will naturally aim for if given half a chance.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 3 JAN 16 by billy teabag
Worth a thousand words. Brilliant! Thanks Jane.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
Why are you connecting these two different roses?
Reply #5 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
A rose identical with "Camnethan Cherry Red" was seen in the US (by one or more of the Tealadies, as far as I remember) labelled 'Princesse de Sagan'. I hope they will comment further.
As you know, the rose sold in Aus as P de S is incorrect. So photos of P de S from Australia should be disregarded, really.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 29 JAN 15 by Give me caffeine
IanM's comment below, Discussion id : 57-888, mentions he thinks it is P de S. I saw his comment when posting mine.
Reply #7 of 12 posted 30 JAN 15 by Patricia Routley
If you listen hard enough, I am sure you will find 365 different opinions from all over the world on a rose.
I try to form my own opinions and it seems to me that the 'Princesse de Sagan' references for 1887, 1898, 1906, 1907, 1916 and 1921 all point to this original rose being a small bush.

My 15-year old, unpruned "Camnethan Cherry Red" on its own roots is about 2 metres high.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 30 JAN 15 by Margaret Furness
Jedmar's comment on his photos of Princesse de Sagan ex Loubert are of interest - maybe mislabelled, maybe Prof Ganiviat (which is what the Aus-sold rose is considered most likely to be). So I wonder if the tall rose labelled P de S, photographed by David Elliot at Lyon, was from the same source.
Reply #10 of 12 posted 31 AUG by Aussie rose lover
Margret you mention Professeur Graniviat as the likely contender for what many are calling Princesses de Sagan .IN this you are quite correct I believe .The Professeur is A cherry pink/ red and like many ,doesn't tend to have the white stripe that occasionally comes in the red varieties. Growth habitats are slightly different but you would need to be familiar with both to appreciate this. On the whole the Professeur is the slightly better rose I feel. But that is just me and I tend to be fairly tough and if I don't like something I either won't grew it or it gets pulled out and binned. I have several new roses which after four years are about to meet the bin.I wonder why they were released as the deleted ones even if they had black spot were still better plants.
Reply #11 of 12 posted 1 SEP by Margaret Furness
I'm increasingly of the opinion that there are too many roses.
Reply #12 of 12 posted 2 SEP by HubertG
Margaret, LOL!
most recent 22 AUG SHOW ALL
Initial post 24 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
I'm pretty convinced that this rose is in fact 'Maman Cochet'.
Reply #1 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by billy teabag
From the photos I've seen of this rose, I agree with you.
Is there any reason it cannot be Maman Cochet?
Reply #2 of 14 posted 26 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hi Billy, John Hook told me that "Bryan Freidel P.T." should be 'Auguste Comte', and you can see on HMF what I think about this one. Apart from personal observations, I think that it's easier that, being BFPT a USA found Rose, it's likely to be a variety pretty common in cultivation like 'Maman Cochet', than a variety unknown in cultivation like A.C.
Note that true 'Maman Cochet' is not in commerce (except than in John's Roseraie du Désert) in Europe, as every nurseryman grows under this name (but not this only one) the Rose I've posted in the 'Auguste Comte' page.

I've made a comparison of BFPT in my garden, using both 'White Maman Cochet' and 'Clg. White Maman Cochet*' and every detail of these Roses seems to be identical to 'Bryan Freidel'.
* I have to remark that this Rose came to me as 'Chromathella' - 'Cloth of Gold'.

Reply #3 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by billy teabag
These things happen! Was it a simple case of an error in labelling or misidentification?
“The rose thought to be Auguste Comte” over here can sometimes look so much like ‘Maman Cochet’. At other times, the differences are very marked.
(In Oz it's been found in a number of places and has the study names "Not Mme Hoste", "Hay Valley Red Tea", "Nantawarra Pink" and there are probably more. Now that we know it better, we are recognising it in more and more places. It seems to be one of the more common surviving roses in cemeteries and the sites of old gardens.) It makes sense that the two roses should be similar – both roses are the result of ‘Marie van Houtte’ x ‘Mme Lambard’.

If I list the similarities and differences noticed in my garden will you check whether they match what you have seen in your plants?

Pedicel – ‘Maman Cochet’ has a basically smooth pedicel - the undercarriage of the bloom has a clean, smooth appearance. "The rose thought to be Auguste Comte" can have a smooth pedicel but it is more often glandular - sometimes very glandular.

Bloom colour - both roses range in colour and at times they are hard to tell apart, but when "?Auguste Comte" produces the darker coloured blooms with striking, intense carmine-red on the outer petals and the petal edges, they are not like anything seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (At the moment, our plants are producing very dark flowers – from a distance they look dark carmine – I cannot see any cream).

Foliage – Tea foliage can vary so much depending on climate, season and conditions and one always has to be careful saying anything is 'typical' but...... ‘Maman Cochet’ often has leaves that look 'quilted' because of the impressed veins and "?Auguste Comte" tends to have darker leaves with less impressed veins, often a denser appearance and a more pronounced point to the leaflet.

At certain times of the year "?Auguste Comte" will appear to set hips - some of them quite large - but if they are cut open, to date there have been no seeds - they are like the 'hips' formed by ‘Rosette Delizy’ - just full of fibrous material. I haven't seen these 'hips' forming on ‘Maman Cochet’.

One of the photos of “Bryan Freidel Pink Tea” on HMF shows a bud with a fresh green square-based receptacle and this is one of the things so often (but not always! – sometimes they have rounded bases) seen on ‘Maman Cochet’. (Noelene Drage says it reminds her of a ‘saucepan on a stick’ – an association that sticks in my mind.)

Do these obs. mirror what you have found?

I hope it can be sorted out and that the correct 'Maman Cochet' will find its way into mainstream commerce over there. It is such a beautiful rose and incredibly hard working in hot climates.
It’s not easy deciding what’s what, especially when plants are young and capricious. “Nantawarra Pink” came to us as a matchstick with roots and as it slowly grew I thought it was ‘Maman Cochet’ and we were going to change the study name to “Nantawarra Cochet”. Then it grew some more and we realised that it was doing things that ‘Maman Cochet’ didn’t do and that it was in fact the same as “Not Mme Hoste” and was probably ‘Auguste Comte’.
All good fun.

Do you grow the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet'? Once established it is one of the most beautiful roses I know.
Reply #4 of 14 posted 27 NOV 09 by Maurizio Usai
Hello Billy,
the Rose in commerce in Europe as 'Chromathella' IS, in fact, the climbing form of 'White Maman Cochet', and I have it -still young- in my garden.
I guess John has now the rightly named 'Chromatella', and I hope to have it soon in my garden :o)

I've checked your list for similarities, and I have to agree with every point of your list.
I have to add the following, using 'White Maman Cochet' to compare:

Bloom: '?Auguste Comte' have smaller flowers than 'White Maman Cochet', much more "globular" at the base, near the receptacle (I don't know how to correctly explain this in english, sorry). The bud is also less elongated, and petals have a different way to roll at the edges. In my climate, blooms on "?Auguste Comte" are easily scorched* by the sun, even in Spring: this never happens to "Bryan Friedel PT" or 'White Maman Cochet', even in August. (* unfortunately, many Teas, like 'Archiduc Joseph-Monsieur Tillier', are easily burnt in my climate).

I'm going to add some new pictures, both for 'Bryan Friedel Pink Tea" and "?Auguste Comte" - I hope they would be helpful.
Reply #5 of 14 posted 29 NOV 09 by billy teabag
Thanks Maurizio - your description of the differences in bloom form are very clear and they match the roses we have here.
"?Auguste Comte" has produced a lot of blooms with unusually large receptacles this spring - some are so large they have split. Does this ever happen with yours? Spring has been milder than usual, with cooler spells and some cold nights so the swelling and splitting may have happened because the blooms have been developing more slowly than usual.
I planted the climbing form of Maman Cochet the other day. It's just a small cutting-grown plant at the moment so looking forward to seeing it grow up. I saw a well established one the other day - it had made its way high into some trees and those gorgeous nodding blooms were looking so good.
Reply #14 of 14 posted 22 AUG by Nastarana
Hardy to zone 4? A tea rose? If that is the case, I want one now.
Reply #6 of 14 posted 16 JUN 13 by John Hook
Helen Good???
Reply #7 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Maman Cochet is evergreen in zone 9b. Helen Good has been promising for "Bishop's Lodge Jane Isabella Linton" but "BL JIL" is deciduous in zone 9b. Would someone check the Bryan Friedel rose in winter please.
Reply #8 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by John Hook
"BL JIL" , Bryan Friedel and Maman Cochet aren't synonymous in my opinion as we are growing all three
Reply #9 of 14 posted 30 AUG 16 by Margaret Furness
Thank you: we knew Maman Cochet was different from "BL JIL" but don't have "Bryan Friedel" here.
Reply #10 of 14 posted 21 AUG by HubertG
Just from reading descriptions and comments, and looking at all the photos here, I think 'Helen Good' is probably the most likely candidate for this rose, in my humble opinion.
Reply #11 of 14 posted 21 AUG by John Hook
We have this rose on our website as Helen Good with description
Reply #12 of 14 posted 21 AUG by Margaret Furness
I'd hoped that whether or not a rose was deciduous would help identification, but losing leaves in winter has turned out to be inconsistent across different gardens in similar weather zones.
Reply #13 of 14 posted 21 AUG by HubertG
Ah good, John! Reading a lot of the early catalogues it was pretty popular.
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