HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 3 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 JUL by billy teabag
That's gorgeous Andrew.
Reply #1 of 3 posted 3 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
Thanks Billy, growing the two varieties together was an idea copied from Mottisfont.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 3 JUL by Marlorena
Beautiful Andrew, superbly done that... nice to get ideas from there...
Reply #3 of 3 posted 3 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
Thanks Marlorena, I've never been to Mottisfont but was inspired by the picture in the R.H.S. rose encyclopaedia of the two roses growing together. I wish people would grow 'Débutante' instead of 'Dorothy Perkins'.
PhotoQ & C
most recent 3 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 2 JUL by Lavenderlace
Absolutely fabulous, thanks so much for sharing!
Reply #1 of 4 posted 3 JUL by billy teabag
Thanks Lavenderlace. I really love the winter blooms too.
These group photos always make me think of school class photos or the awkward family shots with everyone squidged in to fit in the frame, but it's good to have a record of what's blooming near the winter solstice each year.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 3 JUL by Lavenderlace
Excellent job of documenting for sure!
Reply #3 of 4 posted 3 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
I always count the number of plants in flower on new year's day, but there's nothing like your pictures. This year 'Old Blush' had a couple of blooms still going but that's protected against a wall and under a sheet of glass.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 3 JUL by Marlorena
I don't often comment here but that's an astonishing collection of roses you have, and so beautifully arranged and photographed... thank you...
most recent 2 JUL HIDE POSTS
Initial post 30 JUN by Patricia Routley
The Notes for 'Mme Berard' says:
"The Peter Beales Collection of Classic Roses for 2000-2001 says this rose was given to Peter Beales by Hazel le Rougetel in 1997."

Does anybody have this publication please? I would like to add the details as a reference.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 2 JUL by billy teabag
Peter Beales book 'Classic Roses', first published 1985, my copy 1997, has this on p385:

'Mme Bérard'
Levet FRANCE 1879
Fully double cupped largish flowers of a pleasing mixture of bright pink and yellow. Good mid- to dark green foliage. Growth generous for a climbing Tea. Given to me by Hazel le Rougetel.

I am wondering whether this might be the source of the 'E. Veyrat Hermanos' in commerce as Mme Berard.
Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks for that Billy.
I am now looking suspiciously at my provenance and need to work on how I determined my plant came from the UK-1; to Rumsey-2; to Ruston-3. to Natalee Kuser-4 [as Adam] in 2004.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 2 JUL by billy teabag
I don't think there's anything unsound there Patricia.

Two different roses:

1. your rose, the almost thornless "Rose In Commerce As Adam" that definitely isn't 'Adam' but there's a very good probability it's 'Mme Bérard'.

and 2. the "Rose in Commerce as Mme Bérard" (in Australia at least) that definitely isn't 'Mme Bérard' but 'E. Veyrat Hermanos'

The story of the discovery of Rose 1 (Not Adam, probably Mme Bérard) can be read in The Beales and Money 1977 book 'Georgian and Regency Roses', where it is pictured on the cover and also opposite the Introduction, titled 'Unidentified Tea Rose'.
("This well-portrayed example of an early Tea Rose is growing among several contemporaries at Flaxmoor House, Caston, Norfolk. There is no real evidence of when it was planted, but it is undoubtedly of great age.
Theories as to its true identity have been numerous, but mid-nineteenth-century descriptions come down strongly in favour of 'Adam', one of the first true Tea Roses if not the first. Later descriptions confuse the matter somewhat.
It is a sumptuous rose which, even in anonymity, will perhaps whet your appetite for the next few pages.").

Keith Money mentions this same rose in his 1985 'Bedside Book of Old Fashioned Roses'. Not far into the book, on the page opposite the photo of 'Dame Edith Helen' he writes, "Back to the first Norfolk garden of mine…Norfolk had been a good county for rose breeders and growers, and it was certainly more resistant than most areas to those besotted changes of fashion emanating from the Dean of Rochester and the Reverend Foster-Mellier. At the turn of the century, Norfolk was all very much as Nelson knew it.... Thus outside my breakfast room … could be found Gloire de Dijon of 1853 - though just possibly Mme. Falcot of five years later; as well as the supposed first Tea, Adam, 1833. Against the former apple store I found not only Souvenir de la Malmaison (1842) but also the intoxicating Reine Marie-Henriette (1878) - the true, not the fake; Souvenir du Dr Jamain of 1865; the Climbing Rene Andre of 1901; and … Dame Edith Helen…"

So sometime after the early years of 'might be Adam', it became unquestioned Adam on the Beales catalogue and was sent far and wide for people to grow and study and recognise an error.

We understood the error of the identification of Rose 2 - (the "Rose in Commerce as Mme Bérard" - in Australia at least - that isn't 'Mme Bérard' but 'E. Veyrat Hermanos') was an Australia-only one, but reading Peter Beales' description of the rose he calls 'Mme Bérard' in Classic Roses - "bright pink and yellow", "good mid- to dark green foliage" and "growth generous for a climbing Tea", we can recognise features of 'E. Veyrat Hermanos' while not one of these features is a good match for "Not Adam, probably Mme Bérard".

A theory to keep in mind with all the other theories in case something comes up to add weight or refute it.

And if after reading that your head is spinning, think of it as a good example for why it's a very bad idea to 'identify' foundlings on a hunch or scant evidence.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 2 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thank you for that Billy. One forgets what a superb job you did with Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens. It is all there and answers the question about the provenance of my rose. I can only presume Heather Rumsey was writing the text for her 1990 book in the heat of summer when the rose is less petalled. I have added the references you mentioned and also the page numbers of Tea Roses where people may read more in depth.
most recent 2 JUL SHOW ALL
Initial post 29 JUN by HubertG
From the 'Rosen-Zeitung' 1900, page 51:

"Einige schöne Rosen für das freie Land.

... 5) Marquise de Vivens, Th. (Dubreuil 86). Mein ganz specieller Liebling. Die Blüte geht zum Grunde hin vom leuchtendsten Rosa in weiss-rosa und schiesslich in gelb über. Sie ist sehr reichblühend und die Menge der etwas hangenden Blüten macht namentlich auf einem hohen Mittelstamm, einem überraschend reizenden Eindruck. Dabei wird der etwas an Veilchen erinnernde Duft an Feinheit wohl kaum vom Dufte einer andern Rose übertroffen. Sie ist nicht sehr frostempfindlich."

My translation:

Some Beautiful Roses for Open Ground.

... 5) Marquise de Vivens. Tea. (Dubreuil 86). My rather special favourite. The flower graduates from the brightest pink to white-pink and finally to yellow at the base. It is very free-flowering and the mass of somewhat nodding blooms makes a surprisingly charming impression especially on a tall standard. And the fragrance, somewhat reminiscent of violets, is hardly surpassed in refinement by any other rose. It is not very frost-sensitive.

[I think this is the only other reference to the violet scent apart from the Sangerhausen description.]
Reply #1 of 9 posted 30 JUN by Patricia Routley
Well, I have violets galore ....[nonsense deleted]
Reference added. Thanks HubertG.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 30 JUN by HubertG
That's good to know that it can do well in dappled shade. I was thinking of trying this in a large decorative terracotta pot but in a position that wasn't the sunniest, so that information is useful. Thanks.
I have violets like weeds too.
Reply #3 of 9 posted 30 JUN by Patricia Routley
I do have 'Marquise de Vivens' (came as "Mrs Good's Special Tea") but my two own-root plants do not do well for me. (One in heavy dappled shade and a younger one in full sun.

[more nonsense deleted] .... Sorry to mess you around HubertG. Perhaps the time is getting closer for me to retire.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 30 JUN by HubertG
No matter, Patricia. I've decided I want to give "Mrs. Goode's Special Tea" a go anyway, if Thomas' have it in stock, even just for the fragrance alone.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 30 JUN by Margaret Furness
If not, I can send cuttings at a suitable time of the year. It doesn't like my garden either, but it's very floriferous.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 1 JUL by HubertG
Thank you very much Margaret. I'll certainly let you know if I can't obtain it.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 1 JUL by Andrew from Dolton
Patricia, your knowledge and dedication to HMF are invaluable - don't you dare retire!
Reply #7 of 9 posted 1 JUL by Patricia Routley
Thanks Andrew. That is nice of you. But the days dwindle do my supply of marbles I think.
Reply #9 of 9 posted 2 JUL by billy teabag
You have millions of marbles Patricia. Marbles to spare.
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