HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 5 APR SHOW ALL
Initial post 11 AUG 16 by Give me caffeine
Got to sniff the first blooms on mine this morning.

Chapman et al says of this rose: "Fragrance is a moderately strong, dry, fruity Tea, with sharp and woody undertones."

That's not a bad description, IMO. The "sharp" tones are not at all unpleasant. Quite the opposite. More spicy than biting.

I'm not sure I'd call the overall scent "dry". I got the impression of richness. However, it's definitely a fruity Tea, but with added extras that are well worth having.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 22 MAR by billy teabag
Sometimes 'Hugo Roller' has a tobacco-ish smell in its cache of scents. Not the dry smell of cigarettes - more like pipe tobacco. Does your nose pick that up? General terms like 'woody' and 'resinous' probably cover it but to my nose it is a warm and gorgeously rich scent.
Lorraine Lee often has a bit of this scent too.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 5 APR by Give me caffeine
Been a while since I had a sniff but, from memory, that sounds about right.
most recent 26 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 MAR by rozica
I would be very happy if you could help me with identifying this rose. I'm from Croatia (country in Central and South-east Europe, on the Adriatic Sea), so it's pretty worm at summer. This rose grows in a bush shape, the bush is around 1.5 meters high and wide and her flowers have strong and beautiful smell. The rose bush is probably around 100 years old, and she starts blossoming in May. It does bloom only for about a month, it does have a lot of flowers, but they don't last too long. It looses leaves in winter.

Here are some images which I posted in another forum, but unfortunately they werent able to help me. They said it's probably an Old Garden Rose.

Thank you in advance :)
Reply #1 of 11 posted 23 MAR by Nastarana
You might try looking through Bourbon roses at HMF.

I suppose Geschwind's roses would have been sold in Croatia?

How cold are your winters?
Reply #2 of 11 posted 23 MAR by rozica
I looked to every single one of them, and I haven't managed to fined it. Is it possible that it's a type of Damask roses?

The scent of this rose is very strong, and it smells like rose water. My mother made syrup out of her petals.

It is not lower than -10 Celsius.
Reply #3 of 11 posted 23 MAR by Patricia Routley
I think it is a Damask. It reminds me of Joasine Hanet (Damask Perp., Vibert, 1847) which has more of a button eye than I can see in your photos.
Reply #4 of 11 posted 24 MAR by Nastarana
If 'Joasine Hanet' is the same rose as "Portland from Glendora", which is by no means certain, JH does repeat bloom. I do grow PfG, and I doubt the identity with the rose in the photos. PfG has a not unattractive but rather odd four lobed configuration of petals which I don't see in the photos. The color of PfG is a lighter, more lavenderish pink than the pictured rose and the blooms are smaller. In a more favorable climate, such as I imagine would be found in coastal Croatia, the flowers would be bigger but there would surely be blooms throughout the summer.
Reply #5 of 11 posted 24 MAR by rozica
If it's going to help here is some more photos.
Reply #6 of 11 posted 25 MAR by Ozoldroser
Rozica are the flowers always so crowded together such as your last two photos show? I agree it is not the 'Joasine Hanet' possible rose. It looks larger and looser and lighter. The crowded flower buds remind me of a Portland but the shine of the leaves seems to say hybrid china to me.
Reply #7 of 11 posted 26 MAR by rozica
Yes, flowers are always crowded together. The flower is pretty fragile actually, petals are easy to rip off.

Yes, the leaves are shiny and soft, but the thorns are thick and really sharp.
Reply #8 of 11 posted 26 MAR by billy teabag
Is there ever any repeat bloom Rozica?
It is a beautiful rose and the fragrance sounds divine!
Have you given it a study name?
Reply #9 of 11 posted 26 MAR by rozica
No, it blooms only in late spring (end of April throughout May).

Should I give it a name? Feels like such an honor :)
Reply #11 of 11 posted 26 MAR by billy teabag
If you do give it a study name, an entry can be made for it here on HMF and you can add photos and information and others can access it easily. If you do find its original name, the file can then be merged with that file and your study name added as a synonym so the recent history of the rose in your part or the world becomes a part of the story of this rose. I think you honour the rose by giving it a study name while you try to find its original identity but if you are unsure about doing this, do people in the community have any sort of name for it? I'm thinking it's probably referred to as something like "That old rose with the beautiful fragrance on the xxxx road" so if it doesn't already have a local name, who better to give it a study name than someone who cares about it?
Reply #10 of 11 posted 26 MAR by Nastarana
I was wondering hybrid Bourbon, which is perhaps much the same thing as hybrid China.
most recent 26 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 1 MAR by HubertG
A speculative question about Alexander Hill Gray:-
Reading the earliest descriptions for this rose, two things strike me as being discordant to the rose I've grown as AHG. Firstly the yellow colour is described as deepening as the flower develops (mine always fades) and secondly the tea fragrance is described as strong (mine is tea but very weak).
This rose because of it's fine form was understandably marketed as Yellow Maman Cochet. However another rose Mme Derepas-Matrat, introduced by Buatois in 1897 was also called Yellow Maman Cochet. This rose was thornless or nearly so, with little scent and sometimes flushed pink.
The rose I grow in Australia as AHG is nearly thornless with conspicuously smooth stems, a feature that is missing on the early descriptions of AHG.
I'm wondering if the rose grown in Australia as Alexander Hill Gray is really Mme Derepas-Matrat and has been mixed up due to both being called Yellow Maman Cochet.
Does anyone know the provenance of this rose as grown in Australia? Does anyone find the fragrance of AHG strong?
Reply #1 of 9 posted 1 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thornlessness is mentioned in the 2008 reference and I have added that characteristic to 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Thanks.
Do you have the book Tea Roses. Old Roses for Warm Gardens? Provenance of 'Alexander Hill Gray' is also mentioned on p79.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 1 MAR by HubertG
I googled it and found the reference to it being rediscovered. Thanks. It just seemed odd that when the early catalogues extol and almost exaggerate every virtue of a new rose that the thornless nature wasn't included in early descriptions, and that the other 'Yellow Cochet' was described as thornless. I thought that there might have been a mix up very early on in the 20th century.
My AHG sets hips by the way. Not many, but it does set hips.

The fragrance could never be described as strong though.
Reply #3 of 9 posted 23 MAR by HubertG
Just an additional note:
Both 'Alex Hill Gray' and 'Yellow Maman Cochet' are offered and described as separate rose varieties in the 1918 'Dingee Guide to Rose Culture' catalogue.

No reference to the 1897 Buatois rose is made as an alternative name for Yellow Maman Cochet, whereas 'Etoile de France' is given as the synonym for 'Crimson Maman Cochet', so it isn't clear whether the variety they offer as 'Yellow Maman Cochet' is really Mme Derepas-Metrat.
'Souvenir de Pierre Notting, the other rose sometimes called the Yellow Maman Cochet, is also listed separately in the Dingee guide, so that isn't their Yellow Cochet either.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 23 MAR by Margaret Furness
The Dingee catalogue has given you some fascinating research. One comment though: the early English-speaking rose-writers rarely commented on whether a rose had thorns - because they had gardeners to do the hands-on work. For the writers, thorns weren't important, compared to the rose's showbench potential.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 24 MAR by HubertG
I found in the "New Floral Guide, Autumn, 1913" from Conard & Jones Co. a listing for "Yellow Maman Cochet" which gives its original name as "Mlle Helena Gambier". Incidentally, it is listed under winter blooming roses.
It isn't clear from the Dingee catalogue if their Yellow MC is this same French rose, but it certainly does show that plenty of Yellow Maman Cochets sent out in America at that time weren't Alexander Hill Gray.

I'll enter the description of Conard's YMC under Mlle Helene Cambier.

Margaret, that's true about the thorns. Sometimes if a rose is exceptionally thorny or nearly thornless you hear about it.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 25 MAR by HubertG
"ALEXANDER HILL GRAY (Tea). - After a thorough trial both indoors under glass and in the open ground, we are pleased to offer this lovely yellow Rose to our customers as one of the very best of its class and color. The color, which is a deep lemon-yellow deepening as the flower expands, does not fade in the open ground, as is usual with such. Buds and blooms of perfect formation and of great substance, and produced in the greatest abundance throughout the entire season. Strong grower and hardy everywhere. This Rose awarded Gold Medal by the National Rose Society."

This description is from the "Dingee Guide to Rose Culture" 1918, page 12. AHG is offered with "National Emblem" (HT) and "Mrs. George Shawyer (which the list as a Tea) in a package deal called "The National Collection" of 'New Hardy Everblooming Roses'.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 25 MAR by Patricia Routley
Thanks HubertG. Reference added.
A quick skim through the references shows that some say 'Alexander Hill Gray' fades (1926, 1998), and some say it deepens (1912, 1914, 1918, 1940, 1997). I suspect the latter is more likely.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 25 MAR by HubertG
You're welcome. I imagine quite a few different yellow roses would have been marketed under the name of Yellow Maman Cochet, particularly in the USA.
Reply #9 of 9 posted 26 MAR by billy teabag
Yes - ‘Maman Cochet’ was considered such a landmark in the development of Tea roses - approaching the highest perfection of rose form - and breeders aspired to duplicate its qualities in other colours – particularly the elusive definite yellow - or to promote roses by likening them to ‘Maman Cochet’. So we see a number of roses with the synonym ‘Yellow Maman Cochet’.
‘Alexander Hill Gray’, ‘Lady Plymouth’, ‘Souvenir de Pierre Notting’, ‘Mme Derepas Metral’ and ‘Souvenir de Jeanne Cabaud’ have all been named 'Yellow Maman Cochet' at some time and there may be more.

On the subject of fading and deepening colours, it all depends on the light (and latitude). If you cut them in the bud and allow them to open indoors, a much deeper colour develops. If left to open on the bush in full sun, the blooms will usually pale but the blazing Australian sun and the kinder sun of English summers and those of other higher latitudes will affect colours differently . Most Tea roses are very responsive to light and temperature and vary according to conditions.
The pot hunters covered yellow buds with brown paper bags, cut-off brown beer bottles or other ingenious shading devices to get the deepest possible shade of yellow in their prize-winning blooms.
PhotoDiscussion id : 109-356
most recent 22 MAR SHOW ALL
Initial post 17 MAR by Patricia Routley
An interesting photo. I don't think we are seeing such creamy yellow tones in Australia.
Reply #1 of 9 posted 17 MAR by Vesfl
This photo was taken last fall and there was some discussion on Gardenweb about its identity. I didn't want to post it until the curator confirmed that it's "Mme de Watteville". When I was there again this March, some blooms had pinkish undertones and a few buds were also slightly pink, but unfortunately it was about to rain and I didn't take a photo. Last fall, however, all blooms were solid creamy yellow and we were told that this is one of the teas that slightly changes colors seasonally, at least on some blooms. Quite a beautiful rose.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 21 MAR by billy teabag
This is 'Etoile de Lyon' which has been sold under the name 'Mme de Watteville'
Reply #3 of 9 posted 21 MAR by Vesfl
There is one other person on gardenweb who also suggested that it could be 'Etoile de Lyon' (though another GW member was of a different opinion) but these are not my roses and this rose was marked as 'Mme de Wateville' in this beautiful public rose garden in New Orleans and also confirmed to us by the curator. There are about 100 antique roses planted there, if not even more, and I posted the photos of about 35 of them from a couple of my visits to New Orleans. My intent was to share my love of roses with those who enjoy visiting distant rose gardens, even if only virtually. Thank you for your input, though.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 21 MAR by billy teabag
You're welcome.
Reply #5 of 9 posted 21 MAR by Patricia Routley
I have moved the photo to 'Etoile de Lyon'.
Reply #6 of 9 posted 22 MAR by billy teabag
I also had the great pleasure of being shown these roses by Leo in 2010. They were beautifully grown and had been planted with generous spaces between the roses so that they had room to achieve their potential. They clearly loved the climate in New Orleans as well as the care and must be even more magnificent eight years on.
I'll contact Leo re the labelling of that rose.
This is what 'Mme de Watteville' should look like.
Reply #7 of 9 posted 22 MAR by Vesfl
Thank you very much. Before seeing your last comment, I had already removed the photo for now because I wasn't sure if it would be right to keep it since this rose's identity/labelling is questioned. It's not my rose but from this lovely public garden and if, on the second thought, Leo concurs that it's 'Etoile de Lyon' then I would ask Patricia to let me reupload it under 'Etoile de Lyon'. I'm trying to honor both your kind discussion about its identity and the hard work in this public garden to label their roses correctly. That's a beautiful picture from 'The Garden' magazine and thank you for sharing it.
Reply #8 of 9 posted 22 MAR by Margaret Furness
One of the problems with public gardens is that there are visitors who think it witty and original to move labels.
Reply #9 of 9 posted 22 MAR by Patricia Routley
Go for it. You don't need my permission, but check what is in the 'Etoile de Lyon' file first as I have moved some photos to there.
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