HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
billy teabag
most recent 28 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 22 NOV by HMF Admin
Wishing a happy Thanksgiving to all our US members... and anyone else that wants a great excuse to feast for the day.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 28 NOV by billy teabag
And belated thankfulness for HMF and all who sail her.
most recent 23 NOV SHOW ALL
Initial post 18 SEP 14 by Jane Z
Patricia, what is "Rookwood Cream" reference, I've not heard that before.
Reply #1 of 18 posted 18 SEP 14 by Patricia Routley
Don't know. But Margaret may be able to help. She mentioned on May 1, 2010 that at Renmark in a listing of teas, there was "Bird Children". and "Rookwood Cream" which may be another "Bird Children" - being observed.
Reply #2 of 18 posted 18 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
Patricia has emailed me that conversation. Looks like "Rookwood Cream" was a cutting that BM sent, that grew for a while in the igloo, but didn't survive long enough to be planted out.
Reply #3 of 18 posted 18 SEP 14 by Patricia Routley
Margaret, your photo of "Bird Children" with the three blooms is looking similar to my photo of "Mystery Cream Tea". Although Jane's close-up photos seem more imbricated than my "Mystery Cream Tea" does.

Nevertheless, I wonder if "Bird Children" could be 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' 1851? Its parent was possibly the pink 'Gigantesque' 1834 which may, in part, explain the pink sport/reversion "Bird Children Pink".

(ps - I really liked your study-name suggestion of "Jane's Pink Bird" for the pink sport which occurred in Jane's garden.)

pps - I have deleted the Note to "Rookwood Cream".
Reply #4 of 18 posted 19 SEP 14 by Jane Z
unusual that BM would send wood out without the grave name as synonym. might it have meant to have been Rookwood McLean, mis spelt - clutching at straws here, but apart from "Stephi's Red", susbsequently changed to "Mary Ann Murray" around 2004/5 for memory, all study name roses were given earliest known grave or a location name, such as "Derek's Ofice Rose".
Reply #5 of 18 posted 19 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
Could well have been. The grower used to write the plant names on wooden icecream sticks, which are quite narrow, and reading them at times involved some guesswork. Barbara did send us McLean in that batch.
Reply #6 of 18 posted 19 SEP 14 by Jane Z
ok, that's probably what happened, deciphering BM's handwriting on to an ice cream stick - LOL - & given you don't have McLean, (one of theOphelia tribe) it's a reasonable assumption - wouldn't pass a strict provenance due diligence test, but ... :)
Reply #7 of 18 posted 20 NOV by HubertG
I made a comment under one of the photos of the pink "Bird Children" comparing it to a catalogue photo from 1910 of 'The Queen'. The habit and shape of flowers is strikingly similar. Also the foliage seems to be semi-glossy with slightly undulating edges. This can be seen even more clearly in other "Bird Children" photos as well.
Reply #8 of 18 posted 20 NOV by Patricia Routley
The bloom of ‘The Queen’ looks a little more heavily (more?) petalled than “Bird Children”, but I do see the wavy edges in the leaves. The stance of the flowers in the half-standard illustration is also similar. I am sure those who are interested will take this on board HubertG. Many thanks.

Searching further. I do see similarities between “Bird Children” (which I don’t have) and “Mystery Cream Tea” (do have) and I wonder if they are the same. I note the same three suggestions have been put forward for both roses - ‘Mme. Melanie Willermoz’ 1845, ‘Mme. De Sombreuil’ 1851 and ‘Cornelia Cook’ 1855.
Reply #9 of 18 posted 21 NOV by billy teabag
"Mystery Cream Tea" is definitely different.
We have also been wondering whether this pair are 'Souvenir d'Un Ami' and its white sport and have been trying to get the rose to us here in Western Australia so we can observe it closely over time.
Very frustrating as almost every attempt has met with misadventure.
Reply #10 of 18 posted 21 NOV by HubertG
It would be wonderful if someone who grows either of the "Bird Children" roses could post a photo of the bloom at about the same stage of opening as in the 1906 Howard Hitchcock photo of 'The Queen' for comparison.
Also, regarding the leaves, there does seem to be a distinctive valley/fold/crease along the midvein of the leaves in the "Bird Children" and photos of "The Queen" giving it a shallowly V-shaped effect.
I did grow "Mystery Cream Tea" (as Susan Irvine's Cream Tea) quite a while ago, and just going from memory and looking at the photos of the "Bird Children" roses, my impression too is that they aren't the same rose.
Reply #11 of 18 posted 22 NOV by billy teabag
The "Bird Children" roses - both pink and white forms, hang their heads so persistently, you could only get a photo like that by supporting it in that position.
I'll upload a few photos to show you what I mean and include a couple where I've lifted them up to show the face of the bloom.
Reply #12 of 18 posted 22 NOV by HubertG
Thanks Billy, I certainly got my wish. There certainly is a distinct similarity with the 1906 photo of "The Queen". There is even a similar slight crimping effect on the petals.
Reply #13 of 18 posted 22 NOV by billy teabag
Reply #14 of 18 posted 22 NOV by HubertG
How is the scent?
Interestingly, the Rosenlexican 1936 references give 'The Queen' a 5/10 and 'Souvenir d'un Ami' a 7/10.
Reply #15 of 18 posted 22 NOV by billy teabag
Well it's always subjective and dependent on the conditions of the day, so lots of luck to anyone trying to corral that feature into a reliably repeatable format!
I have a tiny wee plant of the pink bird child and it has a single bloom that has that elusive sweetish, floralish, mysteriousish Tea rose scent. A hint of violet today, a hint of floral lifesavers if you're old enough to remember them.

The plant - it's posture and gesture and all its features - is so much like the picture from "Die Rose - ihre Anzucht und Pflege" Jedmar has uploaded.
Reply #16 of 18 posted 22 NOV by HubertG
Thanks, at least it has a scent and it sounds nice! I do remember Lifesavers but not the floral ones.

Also compare the JaneZ 2008 photo of an open bloom of Pink BC (id 254978) to the 1912 photo of 'Souvenir d'un Ami' (id 156351). Again striking similarity there too. The bud in that photo looks rather egg-shaped and the edges seem to lift and scroll a little. Is this bud pattern typical of the "Bird Children"?
Reply #17 of 18 posted 22 NOV by billy teabag
We have yet to have established plants here in the west to watch and learn from.

The photos on HMF provide a record of how they have looked when I have visited them at the HRIA Repository at Renmark and Margaret and Janes' photos show the same range.

Thanks to the kindness of friends in SA, we have been trying to get plants here for some years but have been frustrated at almost every turn. The fumigation required to pass quarantine combined with postal delays is hard on tiny roses and rose bits and we've not had success with budwood to date. I have one very small cutting grown plant that is being nurtured in the hope that there will be some propagating material next season.
Reply #18 of 18 posted 23 NOV by HubertG
I just found another catalogue photo of 'The Queen' (id 325632) which gives a good view of an elongated receptacle. Compare to the "Bird Children" photo id 325602. They appear to be identical.

So far, everything is indicating that there is a exceptionally good possibility that the white "Bird Children" is 'The Queen'/'Souvenir de S.A. Prince'. at least in my mind.
most recent 19 NOV HIDE POSTS
Initial post 18 NOV by Margaret Furness
I wonder about the receptacles in this illustration.
Reply #1 of 5 posted 19 NOV by HubertG
You mean they look a bit too rounded compared to a real bloom?
Reply #2 of 5 posted 19 NOV by billy teabag
The 'flared cup' is well represented in our photos here but every receptacle isn't necessarily like this.
Any statement about Tea roses needs to be qualified with 'often' or even the bolder 'usually'.
One thing we can be certain of is that Tea roses will deviate from any norm we try to impose on them.
I just went over to check the blooms on our plant on this cooler day and apart from the flared cup receptacles, there is a range of sizes and variations of cup-shaped receptacles.
If you have plants blooming at the moment, will you check yours?
Reply #4 of 5 posted 19 NOV by HubertG
I don't think that artists always paid too much attention to the receptacle shape.
I don't grow this rose though I have wanted to. It's always the descriptions that the flowers mark so easily that puts me off.
Reply #3 of 5 posted 19 NOV by Margaret Furness
Too small, and possibly constricted at the top in the illustration.
I see what you mean, Billy; below is a sample of the many on my bush at present, with photo-bombing ant. Most are like the one on the left. The one on the far right looks a bit constricted.
Reply #5 of 5 posted 19 NOV by billy teabag
Snap! here.
most recent 21 OCT HIDE POSTS
Initial post 20 OCT by HubertG
Now that the bush I planted (that came as a 'Dr. Grill' but is supposed to be 'W.R. Smith' and the same as "Amelia Anderson") has flowered, I'm quite confident in saying that my Dr. Grill from Honeysuckle is definitely not William R.Smith. I posted a couple of flowers of W. R Smith, and they could very simply be described as creamy white (no real hints of pink at this stage). Their fragrance to me is like a weaker Maman Cochet scent, the petals are rather thick and waxy. The biggest difference so far is in the habit of the bushes and the leaves. My Dr.Grill has larger leaves with a more undulating edge; the growth of W R Smith is more classic Hybrid Tea like - straighter, more open, erect growth - whereas the my Dr. Grill's branches are a bit more sinuous, and they get sent up from seemingly anywhere on the bush so it creates a denser more Tea-like habit. Also, the flower stems on W.R.Smith have tended to remain reddish when the flowers open, whereas on my Dr. Grill they have changed to green at that point. W. R. Smith's unopened buds are squatter too.
I know I haven't had this new rose for long, and it's hard describing differences,and culture could come into play a bit, but I can tell simply by looking that they aren't the same.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 21 OCT by billy teabag
Thanks for this excellent comparison HubertG.
Your description of the growth habit of 'W.R. Smith' matches my plants.
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