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billy teabag
most recent 18 JAN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 15 JAN by billy teabag
Nothing new, but returning to the mystery of the origins of Mme Jules Thibaud...
Some refs give this rose's date of introduction as 1881 and most declare it a sport of Mlle Cecile Brunner.
The date is Mlle Cecile Brunner's but whether Mme Jules Thibaud is a sport of that rose is not certain. Either way, this early date muddies the waters considerably. (See The Joy of Roses entry for example.)

To date, our first sighting of it in print is in 1949, where Mme Jules Thibaud is noted in a minature rock garden exhibit by an Essex nursery that specialised in minature plants.
By the mid 1950s Graham Stuart Thomas was listing it in his Sunningdale Nursery catalogues, where he made a point of saying he had been unable to trace its origins.
It was imported into Australia from Sunningdale by Deane Ross of Ross Roses and was also offered by NZ nurseries who may have also received it from Sunningdale, or from Ross Roses, or from another source.
It does not seem to be in the USA and I have not seen it mentioned growing in other parts of the world.
Plants we saw in one garden in England labelled Mme Jules Thibaud were indistinguishable from Mlle Cecile Brunner but this does not mean it is not grown there.

To my mind, Deane Ross's notes about this rose from 30 years ago are still the best summary of what we know of it.

"....Gathered around Cécile Brunner like an entourage is a cluster of variations and look-alikes often confusing to the newcomer to the world of heritage roses....I will turn now to a less known rose - ‘Mme. Jules Thibaud’ - which is consistently described as a sport of ‘Cecile Brunner’. For several years I went along with this statement, but all the time it did not seem to ring true. The blooms were different, being somewhat larger. More especially the open petals reflex into parallel tongues - in exactly the same way as ‘Perle d’Or’. It seems more likely that ‘Mme. Jules Thibaud’ is a sport, not of ‘Cecile Brunner’ but of ‘Perle d’Or’. Everything points that way. My earliest reference to ‘Mme. Jules’ is in the Sunningdale catalogue of about 1958, prepared by Graham Thomas where he says that it is “... a sort of ‘Cecile Brunner’. By 1962 when Graham Thomas wrote “Shrub Roses of Today”, he said “....a sport of Cecile Brunner”. Was this a typographical error or did he reconsider the origin of ‘Mme. Jules’. And of course, once a statement has been made by such an eminent authority as G. S. Thomas, subsequent authors copy it without question."
Deane Ross, Mlle. Cecile Brunner and Her Entourage.
The Australian Rose Annual 1994 p54. 
First printed in the Historic Rose Journal, March 1993 p13.
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 18 JAN by jedmar
Thank you for your comments. Reference from the Australian Rose Annual added. DNA analysis should hopefully one day reveal whether it is descended from CB or PdO.
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 18 JAN by Margaret Furness
It's on our list to try, when we see if we can get the DNA comparisons running.
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most recent 17 JAN HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 17 JAN by billy teabag
Bev Linden, a Queensland rose lover who has been growing roses for 50 years shared her experience with this rose on the HRIA Inc. Facebook page. Copied here with her permission.
“I got Mme Jules Thibault some years back and loved the pink colour. I was told it was a sport of Perle D’Or. After about 5 years it reverted back to Perle D’Or, which I already had two of’”
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most recent 3 JAN SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 6 DEC 22 by MiGreenThumb
I feel the fragrance description needs changed. Chrysler Imperial does not smell of cloves/spice in the least. Rugosa roses often do. No references make such a wild claim either.
It's the damask fragrance blended with citrus undertones from foetida ancestors.
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 6 DEC 22 by jedmar
The reference from 1964 states rose & clove fragrance, based on a study in the American Rose Annual 1963 (which we cannot access)
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 7 DEC 22 by Patricia Routley
I have that Annual, but it was the 1962 Annual that the reference appeared. Reference added.
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 7 DEC 22 by billy teabag
I agree with MiGreenThumb that the dominant fragrance of Chrysler Imperial is the marvellous classic 'fragrant deep red rose' scent that combines damask rose and citrus. Perhaps additional notes might be detectable to a discerning nose in certain conditions, but the overall fragrance is very much like that of its offspring, Papa Meilland, Oklahoma and Mr Lincoln.
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 2 JAN by MiGreenThumb
I appreciate the feedback, billy.
I have rugosa roses, and they DO have the scent of clove about them, and it's readily apparent.
It's a similar situation to David Austin catalogue description of scents, or akin to an enthusiastic gardener I've encountered that stated 'Fragrant Cloud' possessed the classic old rose decent, which is certainly not the case, methinks.
Just like blaming Rosa foetida for black spot in modern roses/yellow roses when we have things like Teas, Chinas, and Bourbons getting black spot without a trace of foetida blood, it's far too difficult to not cast doubt on "authorities", especially in the world of plants.
I have a particularly sensitive, if untrained olfactory capabilities.
Unfortunately, unlike my hearing tests for work, I can't give unarguable scientific proof for my sense of smell the way I can for my superior hearing capabilities to what the average individual is even in possession of.
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 3 JAN by billy teabag
You're welcome.
It's a blessing, I think, this mysterious sense. It opens up a whole world of interest and wonder, calls up memory and it would be good to have aids to enhance the sense of smell or to help those who have lost or partially lost that sense.
These respiratory viruses have cruelly robbed a lot of people of some or all of their sense of smell and mine is not as acute as it was pre RSV and Covid 19.
The clove scent is said to be in Souvenir de la Malmaison and Souvenir de St Anne's.
"Souvenir de St Anne's smells of cloves" was written by someone and copied by many after them. I snuffled them for years and, for me, while there was a hint of clove it was not the dominant scent.
One day when I was sniffing a bloom of Souvenir de St Anne's I caught a definite strong note of clove - but it wasn't dominant, or the only note - there was apple too, and a smell like fresh, sweet pastry. All together it had all the makings of spiced apple pie!
Fragrance is an elusive thing at the best of times. I have noticed strong scents of this and that rose on one occasion (fresh nectarines and fig jam for example) strong and unmitigated - and never been able to find those notes again. And I'm sure different noses pick up different parts of a possible fragrance spectrum and there must be smell-blindness and olfactory astigmatisms and short smelled-ness and long smelled-ness as well as most of us having less than 20/20 function.
I hope people like you with a marvellous sense of smell help to fill in gaps in fragrance descriptions and encourage others to explore this aspect of rose appreciation.
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Reply #7 of 7 posted 3 JAN by Margaret Furness
I've read that many people can't smell Boronia, poor souls, on a genetic basis: and that there is a genetic basis for smelling and tasting coriander as soap.
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 7 DEC 22 by jedmar
Thank you all, possibly Neville Miller was thinking of rose fragrance = damask. Damask and citrus notes added to description.
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most recent 20 DEC SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 24 SEP 22 by Give me caffeine
I've just found an old Tea sitting in a neglected garden near my place. It's rather appealing, and I intend to try propagating it, but I don't know what it is. I have a vague suspicion that it might be 'Comtesse de Labarthe', but am not sure. Anyone care to take a stab at it?

Characteristics which are not obvious from the photos:

1/ It is completely thornless. EDIT: No, turns out it isn't.
2/ Only lightly scented (Tea/floral).
3/ Pedicels have sparse and soft bristles.
4/ Hips are spherical.
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Reply #1 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by Margaret Furness
I can see a prickle in one photo! Lovely rose.
I think C de L too.
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Reply #2 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by Give me caffeine
Probably the only one on the bush. Certainly doesn't have many of them. I have a liking for non-carnivorous roses. :D
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Reply #3 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by Margaret Furness
I'm with you on that! Especially so-called groundcover roses.
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Reply #4 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by HubertG
Even though the bloom does look like 'Comtesse de Labarthe' it's odd that your rose has only a light scent as the Comtesse's fragrance is usually strong, and the near thornlessness doesn't really match either, nor do your brownish stems. Perhaps it's another Tea very similar to 'Comtesse de Labarthe'. Does it look like it's a very old specimen?
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Reply #6 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by Give me caffeine
Yes, it does seem to be quite old, although there's no telling how old. It could be as old as the house itself (a farmhouse which has been there for yonks). When I get a chance I'll ask the owner about it.

I was looking at the description for CdL and it says the blooms are quite large. These are fairly small, although that could be down to the bush competing with grass and not being fed. Not sure if that would also affect the scent.
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Reply #5 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by billy teabag
All the roses that come to mind are usually quite prickly. Teas can do some odd things with their prickles though - it would be interesting to see whether strong new growth is usually unarmed.
Do you think there's anyone local who might have information about the garden and the people who might have tended it?
Thanks for the introduction. Can you keep the photos coming?
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Reply #7 of 25 posted 25 SEP 22 by Give me caffeine
The owner (who I suspect has been there all her life) is still alive, or was recently. I'll see if I can roust her out and interrogate her. :D I did spot her and a young relative in the garden one day, a while back, and asked about some other plants there. I didn't notice the Tea at the time (probably because it wasn't blooming).

Will grab some more pics, and try my actual camera for better quality (the phone camera is a bit dodgy).
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Reply #8 of 25 posted 26 SEP 22 by Margaret Furness
And maybe drop a few hints re cuttings in November...
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Reply #9 of 25 posted 28 SEP 22 by Give me caffeine
Ok, have tried interrogation. The owner says she has no idea which cultivar it is. Apparently it was planted by her grandmother, and has been there for over 100 years.

However, one stray branch was being a nuisance when her grandson was mowing the lawn, so when I asked about cuttings she got her grandson (who happened to be handy) to lop that branch off. She said I should get heaps of cuttings from it. :D

More pix attached. Turns out there are stray thorns, mostly on old wood. The shape of the thorns varies, as shown in one of the attached shots (slightly blurry, but gives the idea). Some large ones are quite squat and more or less symmetric. Other (smaller) ones are very hooked.

"...it would be interesting to see whether strong new growth is usually unarmed. - The answer to that is yes. :)

As the shots show, leaf margins are toothed. Also, the very young red leaves have more rounded tips than the older leaves. They get bigger and pointier while they are still red (can do more pix if you want).

Edit: Having just turned the lopped branch into cuttings, I have noticed there were small hooked thorns on some of the newer growth. Not many though. A lot of it was still thornless.
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Reply #10 of 25 posted 28 SEP 22 by HubertG
The flower does look like 'Comtesse de Labarthe' but something about the foliage gives me doubts - too glossy, and an apple green colour. And then there are those dark stems. CdeL usually has a very dense growth habit and more thorns. Perhaps these are just changes linked to culture and conditions. It's a pity you haven't smelt CdeL because that for me would be a deciding factor - it has a strong, very distinctive fragrance. CdeL isn't large from my experience, small to medium usually.
Maybe check out the photos here of "Bird Children" (pink and white) which is a contender for 'Souvenir d'un Ami' and 'The Queen'.
Good luck with the cuttings! I hope you get a good strike rate.
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Reply #11 of 25 posted 28 SEP 22 by Give me caffeine
This one does not have a strong scent. Distinctive or not, strong is still strong, and this one isn't (or not so far anyway) so that probably rules out CdL. I'll keep an eye on the bush now that I'm aware of it, and take shots of anything that seems interesting or useful.

Had a look at "Bird Children". I'm inclined to think it's not that. The bright red thorns, and the red leaf edges, aren't present on this one (or at least, not as I can tell so far). Even the small hooked thorns on some newer growth seemed to be grey, or a bit brownish, and they aren't long like the ones on BC. Pedicels also seem to be less bristly than BC.

On the other hand, Billy's description of the scent could match, but then that could apply to umpteen roses.

Edit: Had a bit more of a look at "Bird Children". The beastie I found (in the same sense that Stanley found Livingstone) seems to have more distinct veins on the upper surface of the leaves, and a smoother texture on the lower surface.
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Reply #12 of 25 posted 30 MAR by Give me caffeine
Turns out I got three healthy plants out of the cuttings (there was lots of material, but most was no good for cuttings). They are going quite nicely, despite the grasshoppers trying to stop them, but are obviously still small.

Which relates to something I have been thinking: that it would be good to have three examples of each hard-to-source rose I have, so that if something happens to one there are two left for more material. Belt and braces, so to speak.

I've had a few favourite-but-uncommon plants (not just roses) snuff it, and getting replacements can be very difficult.

ETA: Re a study name for this thing - I'll ask the current owner of the place for the name of her grandmother. Since grandma planted it, I figure give her the credit.
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Reply #13 of 25 posted 30 MAR by Margaret Furness
Well done.
When the plants are big enough, I'd like a couple of cuttings please (or if you can get from the original plant). May for broccoli box, Nov-Feb for doggybag. Still hoping to find somewhere to plant a full set of the Mystery Teas & Noisettes, and it would be useful to have this one among them for comparison.
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Reply #14 of 25 posted 30 MAR by Give me caffeine
Sure. Will sort something out. :)
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Reply #15 of 25 posted 5 APR by Give me caffeine
Ok, I found a hip on it and got a couple of shots. Also a reverse of a bloom, just in case that was useful.

Re a study name for this rose: the woman who planted it was Lorna Dixon (née Harrison). So, I'm suggesting we call it "Lorna Dixon" for now.

I had a quick look on Trove, and apparently she won the second heat of the local waltzing competition in 1947. Her cat (name not given) also won an award in 1945 for Best Mouser (with catch) and Cat With The Largest Tail.
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Reply #16 of 25 posted 5 APR by Margaret Furness
That's fame, three times over!
The hip is a fair match for Comtesse de Labarthe.
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Reply #17 of 25 posted 5 APR by Give me caffeine
Your photo of a ripe CdL hip shows a much spikier pedicel. Not conclusive, but just something I noticed.

However, I just thought to cross check the three baby plants with my two potted 'Mme. Joseph Schwartz' and the foliage is very similar. Also, at this stage the foliage on the three baby ones does not have the high gloss and the apple green colour of the parent bush's foliage. It's currently fairly matte and a darker green.
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Reply #18 of 25 posted 20 APR by Give me caffeine
Ok, there has been a bit more movement at the station. A few points that seem relevant...

1/ Scent is definitely not strong. You could call it 'mild', or perhaps even 'elusive'. I have to get my nose in there to get a good sniff of it.

2/ It smells to me like 'generic Tea'. In other words, a little bit of rose, floral, greenery, and tea of some sort. It's not a distinctive scent at all, although still rather pleasant.

3/ It has started showing elongated thorns like ''Bird Children Pink'' on some new growth. Some of the BC pictures of older thorns also match fairly well for older thorns on the parent bush (different shape, with a wide base and sort of ogee curvature in the sides). See Margaret's two shots from 8 JAN 22 (Photo Id: 382495 and 382496)

4/ However, it's not a nodder by nature at this stage. Pedicels seem quite strong (some shots of CdL show strong pedicels too).

5/ Pedicels look completely smooth (to me) but are very slightly rough to the touch. I did notice slightly larger bristles on some pedicels on the parent bush, but they were still small and sparse and soft.

6/ Billy's comments about the scent of BC match what my nose says fairly well, but this one is not nearly as noddy, and doesn't seem to get red edges on mature leaves. Also, pedicels seem to be smoother than BC, AFAICT.

Short version: Some strong similarities to CdL, but no strong scent. Some strong similarities to BCPink, but doesn't nod like BCPink (or at least not often).
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Reply #19 of 25 posted 21 APR by HubertG
'Comtesse de Labarthe' has such a distinctive scent that I reckon I could identify it blindfolded. It's a pity you haven't grown it, Give me caffeine, to rule it in or out for your new rose.
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Reply #20 of 25 posted 21 APR by Give me caffeine
Regarding CdL scent - www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1661.6&tab=32&qn=1&qc=0#t98083

Quote - 'The family all say she has a ''planty'' fragrance, which they don't particularly like.'

Doesn't say whether it is strong or not, but certainly doesn't sound like the 'intense fragrance' (or similar wording) that other references rave about. It sounds more like a 'nothing notable scent', which is what I have with this critter.
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Reply #21 of 25 posted 21 APR by HubertG
'Comtesse de Labarthe' is certainly one of the strongest-smelling Teas for me and it's not just a generic Tea Rose scent. I wouldn't describe it as "planty", whatever that means.
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Reply #22 of 25 posted 21 APR by Give me caffeine
That sounds like a 'no' to CdL then.

I assume 'planty' just means it smells like fresh green vegetation, but nothing much else. Not unpleasant, but nothing to 'particularly like' either.

It could be ''Bird Children Pink''. The parent bush of this one is noddy sometimes (quite a lot actually) and after checking all the photos of BCP it seems that BCP is not terminally noddy all the time. The photos indicate that it can do outwards-facing or semi-upright blooms at times. Other characteristics match pretty well too.

I wonder if feeding affects pedicel strength. I vaguely recall reading the 'Lady Hillingdon' is a lot more noddy if not fed generously (can't recall exactly where I read that though). The parent bush of this one has not been fed for yonks (and has a lot of competition from grass) while these three cuttings of mine went into a decent mix that has been fed a bit since.
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Reply #23 of 25 posted 21 APR by Margaret Furness
Maybe you could post a bud (with leaves and prickle) to Billy Teabag at the HRIA conference in Melbourne, late October. She has a good nose. Better still, send it with someone who is going to the conference.
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Reply #24 of 25 posted 20 DEC by Give me caffeine
My three little plants have been flowering again lately. Have been fed and treated nicely. Still no scent to speak of.

If you stick your nose right into a fresh bloom, there's a very slight aroma of something that is more or less discernible as emanating from some sort of plant. Honestly, that's about the most thrilling thing I can say about it. If you're looking for 'strong and distinctive scent' as an indicator of CdL, I can't find anything like it.

Re running it past Billy: In the past, when Billy and I have compared notes on a range of moderately-scented Teas (G. Nabonnand, Peace 1902, Safrano, General Gallieni, Marie Lambert, etc...) we always seem to be in agreement. It's possible that our noses would not agree on this rose, but given past agreement it doesn't seem likely that application of the legendary Billyometer would make any difference.

I don't think it's ''Bird Children Pink'' either. No red edges on mature leaves, and no red thorns (they start greenish, then just turn grey/brown) and doesn't seem noddy at all (blooms are upright, or outward-facing).

One thing I have noticed: so far the cuttings are not getting glossy, bright apple green leaves like the parent bush. They're still matte, and darker. This may be due to them being in premium potting mix, while the parent bush is planted in the local slightly acidic clay (and is competing with grass).
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Reply #25 of 25 posted 20 DEC by Margaret Furness
Some aspects would do for "Agnes Smith", but most of your photos don't show the outer petals rolling outwards. My kneejerk (non-nasal) reaction is still C de L, but I'd be interested in others' opinions.
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