HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'Crimson Rambler' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 48-023
most recent 12 SEP 10 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 11 SEP 10 by Patricia Routley
A simplfied potted history of this rose is:
A navy mechanic of a steam boat, Mr. R. Smith, (also) Professor of Engineering at Tokio [sic] sent a plant from Japan to Mr. Jenner, a well-known horticulturist. Mr. Jenner named it the 'Engineer', and subsequently gave the rose to J. Gilbert, a nurseryman of Lincoln, who exhibited some cut blooms in July, 1890, and received an Award of Merit from the Royal Horticultural Society. Soon after this, Gilbert sold his stock to Mr. Turner, who renamed it 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' and put it into commerce in 1893.

The introducer is listed as Mr. Charles Turner in HelpMeFind. However as he died on May 9, 1885, and was succeeded by his son Arthur Turner, it seems likely that Arthur named the rose in memory of his father. Perhaps the introducer should be changed to Mr. Arthur Turner.
Reply #1 of 6 posted 11 SEP 10 by Cass
Oh, those Turners. There were two Charles Turners. Charles Turner the younger was mentioned as exhibiting Crimson Rambler by a garden writer in the Journal of Horticulture and Cottage Gardener who went to see Crimson Rambler "at home" in 1895. (July 11, 1895, pp. 30-31)

The elder Charles Turner was associated with Royal Nursery/Nurseries, Salt Hill & Slough as early as 1851 and maybe as early as 1845. He lived from 1818-1885. "Mr. Charles Turner, the father of Mr. Arthur and Mr. Harry, established these nursery grounds over fifty years ago. (1902, Journal of Horticulture, p. 474) Harry Turner's obituary appears in 1906. Harry was the eldest son of Charles.

The second Charles Turner of Slough is mentioned starting in 1889. British Gardening said, in 1893, describing an exhibition at the Crystal Palace Summer Show: "Mr. Charles Turner, the Royal Nurseries, Slough, sent plants of "Turner's Crimson Rambler" Rose, a splendid free-flowering variety." (1893, p. 301) The same Charles Turner appears in 1891, 1898, again in 1906, 1907 and 1908, also at Royal Nurseries, in The Gardners' Chronicle and The Garden. Charles Turner was exhibiting Crimson Rambler throughout that period.

I don't think that Arthur's name should be associated with the introduction, given the references found so far. Maybe the Royal Nursery should be substituted? Is there reason to think that The Botanical Society of Edinburgh (copied in the Gardener's Chronicle ) got the story wrong in 1894? I still haven't found how this Charles Turner the younger is related to the first. Son of Arthur or Harry seems most likely.
Reply #2 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Patricia Routley
Yes. The Turners are difficult. Charles Turner Snr. Died on May 9, 1885
But just 11 days later at the Royal Botanic Society Summer Show on May 20, Mr. C. Turner staged carnations and azaleas (ref 1885, May 28. Journal of Horticulture and Cottage Gardener page 445]; and on June 25, Mr. C. Turner also showed pelagoniums and roses [same journal, but June 25, page 531]
In that same issue (page 532) Harry Turner was mentioned as being on the Royal Horticultural Society Floral Committee. As Harry died just 11 years later in 1906, I am presuming he was perhaps a little too old to take on the running of the nursery and that responsibility went to the younger Arthur who eventually died in 1930.

But who was the Charlie who showed the flowers just after Charles Turner died on May 9, 1885 I haven’t been able to find out. There is the thought that the nursery perhaps went under a sort of common name of Charles Turner, instead of Royal Nurseries. (You will note I am disobeying my rule again of “Thou shalt not presume.”)
Reply #3 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Cass
Patricia, I had the same thought about the use of "Charles Turner" as a generic for the nursery he founded. But The Garden (1904) p. 27 put that possibility to rest for me. It describes a visit to "Mr. Charles Turner's Nursery At Slough" and includes praise for Mr. Turner's exhibits at shows in May and July.
Reply #4 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Patricia Routley
We need some English sleuths on board. Maybe they will be able to turn up something.
Reply #5 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by jedmar
A snippet from "The Gardener's Chronicle" of 1900 (p. 76?): "We regret to announce the death of Mr. Charles Turner, head-gardener for eight years to...." Unfortunately I cannot access the full text as Google is blocking more and more over here.
Reply #6 of 6 posted 12 SEP 10 by Cass
I expect the blocking to get worse in reaction to the EU challenges to google for copyright violations.

"Charles TURNER.—We regret to announce the death of Mr. Charles Turner, head-gardener for eight years to Hatfeild Harter, Esq., the present proprietor of Cranfield Court, Bletchley, and his predecessor, the late Rev. G. G. Harter. He passed away on Monday, January 15, at Cranfield Court Gardens, at the age of sixty-six years. The deceased began his gardening career in the gardens of Blenheim Palace, where he became foreman ; he went then to Middleton Park, Cirencester, and afterwards to Gunnerabury Park, and the Crystal Palace Gardens."

A different Charles Turner, I think, not of Slough.
Discussion id : 45-516
most recent 5 JUN 10 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 4 JUN 10 by Jay-Jay
This rose is at our place very susceptible to mildew! It covers all the leaves and buds, and the leaves fall off. Even the buds do not open properly because of it!
Reply #1 of 3 posted 5 JUN 10 by Patricia Routley
Move it Jay-Jay. Because of the name, people treated 'Turner's crimson Rambler' like a rambler and put it up against the walls of the houses where it felt smothered. It developed mildew in these situations and became known as a leper, a mildew-breeder. This rose likes the “wide open spaces” of cool climates. It hates warm climates and was never quite happy in the Riviera, seldom bloomed in Florida, and was climatically unsuited to California. If you prepare a good root run right from the start, and plant it as a pillar or large shrub in the open, where it will receive air circulation from all sides, then you will have a sight that will gladden your heart each spring.
Reply #2 of 3 posted 5 JUN 10 by Jay-Jay
Thank You for Your reaction Patricia, it was for me an eyeopener. I already gave up the "Crimson Rambler", but next year it wil become the place it deserves. My brother has a big open field next to his new home, and I think he and his wife will adopt it AND enjoy its beauty! Their garden needs still some "furnishing".
Always when You load up Your photo's, there is again that surprise effect because there often is again another, for me unknown, old rose in all its aspects! Thank You for sharing Your enthousiasm!
Greetings from the opposite site of the world, Jay-Jay.
Reply #3 of 3 posted 5 JUN 10 by Patricia Routley
Greetings and waves back to you up there Jay-Jay.
My reaction was rather abrupt I am afraid, but I was taking a short-cut and just cutting-and-pasteing from an article I did on 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' in February 2008 for my local newspaper. I am glad you like the old roses too. I don't recall who wrote the lines below but I am sure she wrote them just for us.
Patricia - down under.

One comes back to those old-fashioned roses as
one does to old music and poetry. A garden
needs old association, old fragrances, as a
home needs things that have been lived with.
Discussion id : 32-280
most recent 10 DEC 08 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 10 DEC 08 by Cass
An excellent black and white photo from 1913 can be viewed by searching the Historic Image Collection of the Brooklyn Botanic Garden:
© 2017