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'Gloire de Dijon' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 91-644
most recent 22 MAR 16 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 22 MAR 16 by CybeRose
The following reference is incorrect:
The Gardener's Monthly and Horticultural Advertiser
Magazine (Jun 1860) Page(s) 163.
Tea Rose - Glore de Dijon by Prof Page, Washington, D.C.
The following particulars are worthy of note at this time concerning this matchless Rose. I have twice *been* alluded ...

It should read "I have twice *before* alluded ..."
Discussion id : 91-643
most recent 22 MAR 16 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 22 MAR 16 by CybeRose
The Gardener’s Monthly 2(3): 69 (Mar. 1860)
There is probably no variety of rose that will endure a temperature of zero Fahr. upon unripened branches, and expanded leaf buds; and there are probably very few roses that will not endure this temperature provided the wood has been fully ripened and the buds are all dormant and the sap quiet. The Gloire de Dijon is an excellent illustration. It belongs to a tender family, but is perfectly hardy here. Its hardiness is not, however, entirely intrinsic, but depends upon its habit of growth. Unlike Teas and Noisettes generally, it stops growing in the fall, and is not apt to be quickened again till the spring. It prepares for winter like a Remontant, and has proved itself here more hardy than the majority of Remontants. In that rigorous winter of 1855-6, it stood better than La Reine, Madame Laffay, Wm. Griffith, and others. This winter has been thus far very destructive to Teas and Noisettes, but the Dijon is unharmed.
Discussion id : 29-921
most recent 3 NOV 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 23 AUG 08 by Tearose
There is actually no evidence that Jaune Desprez was the seed parent of GdD. Jacotot did not record the parentage, but apparently told his family that the seed parent was an unnamed tea. I'm not sure where the idea that Jaune Desprez was the seed parent came from, but was much later .
Reply #1 of 7 posted 23 AUG 08 by Cass
The idea came from Brent Dickerson's The Old Rose Advisor.
Reply #2 of 7 posted 23 AUG 08 by Tearose
Brent got it elsewhere. I've discussed it with him, and he agreed with me that it's an assumption that's been passed on as if it was truth. I think either Beales or Thomas originally started calling it a Noisette based on this belief, but I don't know for sure where they got the idea. I think Rosenlexicon has it with a "?", but I haven't found an earlier source yet that Jager would have gotten it from.
Reply #3 of 7 posted 23 AUG 08 by Patricia Routley
What about Brent's reference from The Horticulturist, 1846-1875
“Certainly the colour, an ochraceous yellow, the size, as large as ‘Jaune Desprez’, and the Tea scent, make it a great acquisition.” (HstX:398)
Reply #4 of 7 posted 23 AUG 08 by jedmar
This seems to be the only clue to the 'Jaune Desprez' analogy. In the reference from "Flore des Serres" of 1854, which cites an earlier article by Jacotot himself, both the bloom form and the foliage is said to be that of SdM. Jacotot derives the tea classification from the reflexing of the sepals (lorsque le bouton veut s'ouvrir, elles se retournent fortement sur l'ovaire). Van Houtte first thought it was a Bourbon. Generally in that era the seed parent was known, but not the pollen parent. If I read the references correctly, the "fact" that SdM was the pollen parent was reported later by the Jacotot family as a "family tradition". It would have made more sense to list GdJ as a seedling of SdM. Interesting is the breeding year (1850, not 1853)!
Reply #5 of 7 posted 24 AUG 08 by Tearose
It would make more sense as the seed parent, but my SdlM has never produced so much as a hip, so I've never doubted the pollen parent story. My personal feeling is that Jacotot, like many other rose lovers, did some experimenting, grew some seed he collected from roses in the nursery, and one was likely the unnamed yellow tea. I have quite a few unnamed roses, that are not worthy of introduction, but I keep them for my own pleasure, since I produced them. I even have one that I think might be useful as a seed parent, if pollinated by the right rose. I think that's similar to how GdD came about. After all, it was the only rose he ever introduced.

I agree with Patricia that the Jaune Desprez reference may have planted the idea in someone's mind that it was the parent. I'd love to know who first stated that it was the parent. I'll have to check my references to see which is the earliest I have.
Reply #6 of 7 posted 24 AUG 08 by jedmar
If we accept that SdM is the pollen parent, can we speculate which "yellow Tea" Jacotot might have crossed it with? Was he trying to achieve a yellow Tea with the form of SdM's blooms? Was the vigour and climbing tendencies of GdD a chance by-product? Assuming that he would not have called a Noisette a Tea, there were not so many yellow Teas at the time which could have been attractive as a crossing partner for SdM:
Flavescens (Park's Yellow), Hymenée, Thé jaunâtre, Narcisse, Reine Victoria, Devoniensis, Princess Adelaide, Solfatare (sold initially as a yellow tea).
The climbing characteristic must have come from one of these. Except for its climbing sport almost 50 years later, there are only few climbing direct descendants of SdM, and those have all seed parents which carry the climbing gene. So, Devoniensis and Solfatare? Were the others climbers?
Reply #7 of 7 posted 3 NOV 14 by CybeRose
I don't trust family traditions in such matters. In an article in American Gardening 19: 392 (May 21, 1898) the author reported that 'Harison's Yellow' was a seedling of 'Persian Yellow'; "Our knowledge of its origin came from Miss Harison, the grand-daughter of the originator, and who for many years and until recently, resided in Clinton Place, New York, and is now living at their old country home on the St. Lawrence."

Of course, this origin is impossible because 'Harison's Yellow' was in commerce before 'Persian Yellow' reached the West.

I think it is useful to note that some contemporary writers regarded 'Mme Desprez' (Desprez 1831) as having Noisette in its parentage. 'Jaune Desprez' (Desprez 1830) may share parentage with the other. This could explain the Noisette-like characters in 'Gloire de Dijon'. Folks back then were not clear on the concept of recessive characteristics, beyond some vague notion of atavism.

'Souv. de la Malmaison' is capable of bearing seed. 'Lucy H. Nicolas' (Nicolas) is one example.

If 'Jaune Desprez' or some other yellowish Noisette (Smith's Yellow?) was the pollen parent of 'Mme Desprez', even a self-seedling of 'Malmaison' might show some yellow, along with the climbing habit that was mostly latent in 'Mme Desprez' and 'Malmaison'.

Or if the unknown pollen parent of 'Malmaison' happened to be a white or yellowish tea, the same would be true.

I think it would be interesting to back cross 'Gloire de Dijon' (as pollen parent) with 'Souv. de la Malmaison'.
Discussion id : 81-429
most recent 3 NOV 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 NOV 14 by CybeRose
Journal of Horticulture and Practical Gardening, 11: 375-376 (Oct 29, 1885)
T. W. G.
Deducing a hybrid's origin from its outward characteristics or habit may perhaps be objected to as only presumptive, and therefore inadmissible; but as there are so few records of the origin of Roses (and even those preserved generally give only the seed parent), until the hybridisation of these plants be much more exactly effected and noted, no other method of classifying the bulk of the florists' varieties exists. That the origin of a hybrid may be fairly accurately deduced from the evidence of its exterior is indicated by cases where the exact cross has been recorded. Moreover, it is well known that seedlings raised from a hybrid frequently show a tendency to revert to the form of one of that hybrid's parents. Now it has long been held that Gloire de Dijon originated from the crossing of some Tea-scented Rose by a Bourbon variety. True, there was no yellow Bourbon that could have assisted in the production, but then Gloire de Dijon is only a yellow Rose by courtesy on a north aspect, and the opaque colour (as in Bourbon Queen) that seemed to overlie the yellow in the petals, the flat expanded flowers with the stamens all hidden by the doubled-over petals (as in Souvenir de la Malmaison), and the broad leathery leaves, were deemed sufficiently conclusive evidence. Myriads of seedlings have been raised from Gloire de Dijon, many inclining more to the Tea-scented type, as Belle Lyonnaise, &c, until now comes the white Etendard de Jeanne d'Arc, which at a little distance looks like the ghost of a Souvenir de la Malmaison. This seedling therefore affords an additional indication by reverting to a Bourbon type that the supposition, founded on its external characteristics, of Gloire de Dijon having been a hybrid between a Tea and a Bourbon was well grounded, and this may serve as an argument in favour of reasonable deductions of a similar kind in other cases.
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