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Questions, Answers and Comments by Category
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I have found a couple of plants of this rambler in the Woods Hole and Falmouth regions of Cape Cod where Michael Walsh sold roses and hybridized them 100 years ago. This rambler with its flowers that vary from white to crimson does not match the description of any in his catalog. We do know from his catalogs, though, that he sold ramblers from other hybridizers such as 'Silver Moon', 'Turner's Crimson Rambler' and 'Ghislane de Feligond'.
I would like to know if anyone recognises this rambler.
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#1 of 13 posted
30 JUL 14 by
 Jay-Jay
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Might this possibly be Excelsa? See http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.240631
It reminded me of Fernande Krier a sport of Excelsa.
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'Excelsa' is very common in this area, but the rose in the photos is quite distinctive. Excelsa's flower clusters are quite uniform in coloring starting out a crimson and fading to a deep pink and finally to a "dusty" pink. The rose in question has flower clusters where some flowers are crimson, others pink and a few almost white. It is quite an unusual rose and most likely 100 years old because it is found growing with other roses bred by Michael Walsh and sold by him.
Fernande Krier is an interesting suggestion, but the photos here on HMF don't appear to be of the same rose; although it is certainly similar. Could it be another sport of Excelsa?
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#3 of 13 posted
31 JUL 14 by
Jay-Jay
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As I said, it reminded me of Fernande Krier. And it could be another sport... Fernande Krier does also sport back and why not partially?
I'm not an expert, but just a rose-lover. Maybe some-one else might shine his/her light on this-one.
Good luck!
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I once saw a photo of 'Harlequin' that Pat Toolan took in Sangerhausen. My memory of it tells me it was very much the same as the photos of 'Fernande Krier'. They are both sports of 'Excelsa'. I had a 20 minute look in the UK Annuals this morning, but couldn't see anything relevant.
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Now that 'Excelsa' in my garden has done the same thing, I think we can be certain that it is 'Excelsa'.
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Palustris, are some of the 'Excelsa' flowers completely double with a button eye?
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No Andrew, I have not seen that. 'Excelsa' when fully open on a healthy plant, shows a small circle of golden stamens and the flower opens to slightly "flared". The base of the petals is white. See http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.178094.
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Sorry I wrote the message in a moment of confusion about the rose picture you posted on 30/7/18 which looks like it has button eyes.
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Now, I just discovered this rose growing in half a dozen gardens in Dolton. By far the largest plant is in a hedgerow belonging to a fairly recently built house, the owners said it was there when they moved in and had not a clue what it was called. The receptacles and pedicle are hairy and lots of sprays carry flowers with up to half the petals a much darker pink. They open rose pink but fade to almost white with dark pink spotting. Unlike a lot of this type of rose the prickles are sickle shaped and the leaves paler than 'American Pillar' and 'Excelsa'. I thought at first of the rose at Woods Hole...
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#10 of 13 posted
14 JUL 18 by
Palustris
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At first sight, it looks remarkably l like the 'Debutante' grown at the Woods Hole Historical Museum. However, upon closer inspection the leaves are the wrong shape and the flower stems don't seem to have as many small prickles. I have uploaded two more photos of 'Debutante' attempting to show both these issues.
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=2.1484.1&tab=36
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The pictures are interesting. The Dolton rose does not have many prickles at all and those that it has are small and thin. The flower stems are very smooth and prickle free although the receptacles are bristly. There are tiny prickles on the mid rib underneath the leaves.
Just being devil's advocate, did Woods Hole ever go through a period of neglect or do you think a careless gardener might have at some point muddled the rose labels up? I have to say it would be very intriguing to find out the U.K. Débutante was wrong! If it is what on earth is it?
Did you hear from Dan Russo yet?
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#12 of 13 posted
16 JUL 18 by
Palustris
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Andrew, the 'Debutante' at the Woods Hole Museum is a clone I made from the Lowell family rose here in Barnstable that was purchase directly from Walsh and identified by Dan Russo. That clone is now 5 years old and was planted on a trellis on the side of the museum.
The Walsh Memorial Rose garden suffered several periods of neglect over the years, but fortunately, the locations of the individual plants was recorded in the Museum and each of the roses is easy to identify. The only one in question is 'Summer Joy'. The buds on the 'Summer Joy' in the Walsh Memorial garden are not a pure white. See my photos:
http://www.helpmefind.com/gardening/l.php?l=2.6010&tab=1
Dan doesn't have internet access at his summer cottage so is not always available for email.
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#13 of 13 posted
18 JUL 18 by
Palustris
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Andrew, I heard back from Dan Russo and he says that he sent 'Evangeline', 'Sweetheart', and 'Maid Marion' to Vintage Gardens. I checked the VG catalog and he is credited with providing all three roses. He did not provide VG with 'Debutante'.
I have been keeping records of my rose acquisitions for 30 years in a database. I received the correct 'Debutante' from VG in April 2003. That is the same year that Dan identified the rose at the Lowell family home. The two roses were a match.
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