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'Alexander Hill Gray' rose Reviews & Comments
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The description page for 'Alexander Hill Gray' says "sets no hips". I've always found mine sets hips (which hold seeds) fairly readily. I find this a bit puzzling.
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And this is exactly why comments like yours are so useful and what makes HMF so special. At some point in time, a permanent reference indicated otherwise and now we know that reference is in question based on your experience.
We need more people take the time to share their experience - Thanks !
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I certainly wouldn't discount that reference Admin. What we need is more of them to say if this rose does, or does not set hips. The fact that we show just one 1922 descendant indicates that it does not, and therefore there is a possibility that HubertG has received a rose other than 'Alexander Hill Gray'. Every reference is valuable.
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#3 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
 HubertG
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Thanks HMF Admin,
This site is a veritable commonwealth of rose knowledge; the more contributions the better.
Patricia, I have two bushes of AHG ordered from different nurseries maybe 5 years apart. They are both the same and both do set hips. They do look the same as other AHGs in Australia posted here (I've posted a few photos of mine too) This is a double rose but not what I'd call a full one and so they have normal looking reproductive parts and, if insects can get in, I can't see any reason (barring an odd ploidy) why it shouldn't set hips. That's why I thought the no hips reference was unusual. By the time AHG was introduced Teas were waning in popularity, so that is probably the likeliest reason it wasn't used much in breeding, in my opinion.
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#4 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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There are in fact a couple of hips on Margaret Furness' photo here:
http://www.helpmefind.com/rose/l.php?l=21.304447
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That is interesting HubertG. They are hard to see, but I do see them.
I suspect Margaret didn't note them as she has said in her more recent photo 315211 that her plant didn't set hips.
Unfortunately 'Alexander Hill Gray' never came my way, so I have no first-hand experience. How else can I help here?
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#6 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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Best to wait for more comments on this topic, I'd say.
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Maybe it varies with how the weather has been. There's nothing on mine now that I would call a hip. It doesn't flower much in a dry summer.
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Do your 'Alexander Hill Gray' plants have prickles HubertG?
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#9 of 21 posted
21 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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No, it's virtually thornless. I took some photos this morning of a few hips on one of my AHGs, which I'll post later.
Its thornlessness was the reason I had previously questioned whether it might have in fact been Mme Derepas-Metrat, one of the other "Yellow Cochets", because that was nearly thornless according to references, and thornlessness is a rarity in early roses.
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#10 of 21 posted
22 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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There were five hips on one of my plants this morning. I didn't check the other plant. The split hip is one I collected about April, showing the seeds. I do think the weather conditions play a part; AHG does tend to ball a bit, so if it doesn't open, it won't become fertilised.
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HubertG, I have added a few more references. I have more but it is late and I don't think any more are relevant. Take a look at the 1939 reference. I suspect there may be different versions of 'Alexander Hill Gray' in Australia as the 1998 reference says this rose fades. Most other references says it deepens.
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The plant at Renmark derived from the one at Bishop's Lodge, via John Nieuwesteeg. Mine has fallen off my list of provenances, but it's likely it was a spare from when I grew the one for Renmark from cuttings (which is partly why I have too many roses).
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#13 of 21 posted
24 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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Patricia, lots of good new references! The most puzzling aspect for me is not so much the hips or whether the colour fades or deepens but the fragrance which is nearly always described as strong. Sangerhausen gives AHG an 8/10 for fragrance, which is the same they give Marechal Niel, and they also only give Mrs Foley Hobbs (which I find has a stronger fragrance than AHG) a 5/10. I'd only rate AHG about a 3/10 for fragrance. I know fragrance is very subjective, but I think I have a good nose.If the fragrance description in old references varied a lot, or if there were lots of omissions on the fragrance description, I could understand, but it is fairly consistently rated as strong.
Margaret, did Bishop's Lodge have a known specimen of AHG, or was it a found bush that was later given AHG as it's identity? Maybe there are two versions of AHG in Australia. Maybe Mme Derepas-Metrat is one of them, after all they were both "Yellow Cochets". Does your Bishop's lodge AHG with the needle-like thorns have a good fragrance?
Also the 1925 Darlington (English) reference is puzzling because it describes a plant "up to 8-ft, or a little more under glass". My two bushes are barely waist height.
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I think the Bishop's Lodge plant would have been identified by John N and David Ruston. As far as I know, but am willing to be corrected, none of the BL plants were labelled.
The plant from Melbourne General Cemetery was identified by Roy Rumsey, who had grown it years earlier.
I'll check fragrance when it flowers again, but I'm not a good judge. My plant is small too so far.
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#15 of 21 posted
24 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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I just found and uploaded a 1919 catalogue photo of a whole bunch of 'Alexander Hill Gray' (photo Id:319773). There are thorns visible on the stems and although they don't seem "needle-like" because they are fairly wide, they are quite straight. If it is to be believed, it is also interesting in that the flower form seems to vary considerably from what I grow as AHG. I'd be interested in seeing more of Margaret Furness' prickled Bishop's Lodge AHG later on when it's in flower to compare.
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#16 of 21 posted
25 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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From "The Garden", Oct 10, 1908 page 493:
"SOME NEW ROSES OF 1908.
...there are other Roses not yet distributed which have obtained a gold medal. To refer to them would be going beyond the scope of these notes; but an exception, however, must be made in favour of a yellow Tea named A. Hill Gray. This Rose promises to be a favourite for the garden and suitable for exhibition. The growth is branching but somewhat slender, free-flowering habit, blooms fairly full, colour yellow, shaded white.
Joseph H. Pemberton"
And from "The Garden", Sep 26, 1908, page 465
"NEW SEEDLING ROSES AT THE AUTUMN SHOW.
A. Hill Gray. - A Tea raised by Messrs. Alexander Dickson and Sons of Newtownards, Ireland. A beautiful Rose of excellent shape, well staged on a tall stand. Delightful pale yellow colouring, fragrant and a good grower; undoubtedly the finest Rose staged in the class. The award of a gold medal was practically unanimous. Good Teas are scarce and are very welcome, especially when up to exhibition standards.
Herbert E. Molyneux"
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Thanks HubertG. References added.
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I've just added a few more references to Alexander Hill Gray, including a couple (1954 and 1938) that refer to thornless stems.
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#19 of 21 posted
25 JUN 18 by
HubertG
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Billy, they're very interesting because they seem to be the only early references to the lack of thorns, and they are local too. If both AHG and Mme Derepas-Metrat were virtually thornless, I wonder if AHG was bred from the other. It makes sense that if you had a rose praised as a yellow Cochet in MmeDM, to use it to try to raise something better. And if that were the case, AHG's tendency to sometimes blush pink could be inherited from MmeDM's pollen parent Marie van Houtte. Pure speculation of course.
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When there is an equivalent of Trove in other countries, we'll probably find more references like this.
Margaret's comment is sadly true. Many of the people responsible for those early descriptions probably only ever handled a bloom on a stem that had been de-thorned by the gardener.
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#21 of 21 posted
26 JAN 19 by
HubertG
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Just regarding 'Alexander Hill Gray' setting hips - I've mentioned mine does fairly readily, and just in the last three days I've had four seedlings germinate, all from the same hip of 'Alexander Hill Gray' x 'Lorraine Lee'. This shows it can produce viable seed as well.
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