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Initial post 18 SEP 14 by Jane Z
Patricia, what is "Rookwood Cream" reference, I've not heard that before.
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Reply #1 of 7 posted 18 SEP 14 by Patricia Routley
Don't know. But Margaret may be able to help. She mentioned on May 1, 2010 that at Renmark in a listing of teas, there was "Bird Children". and "Rookwood Cream" which may be another "Bird Children" - being observed.
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Reply #2 of 7 posted 18 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
Patricia has emailed me that conversation. Looks like "Rookwood Cream" was a cutting that BM sent, that grew for a while in the igloo, but didn't survive long enough to be planted out.
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Reply #3 of 7 posted 18 SEP 14 by Patricia Routley
Margaret, your photo of "Bird Children" with the three blooms is looking similar to my photo of "Mystery Cream Tea". Although Jane's close-up photos seem more imbricated than my "Mystery Cream Tea" does.

Nevertheless, I wonder if "Bird Children" could be 'Mlle. de Sombreuil' 1851? Its parent was possibly the pink 'Gigantesque' 1834 which may, in part, explain the pink sport/reversion "Bird Children Pink".

(ps - I really liked your study-name suggestion of "Jane's Pink Bird" for the pink sport which occurred in Jane's garden.)

pps - I have deleted the Note to "Rookwood Cream".
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Reply #4 of 7 posted 19 SEP 14 by Jane Z
unusual that BM would send wood out without the grave name as synonym. might it have meant to have been Rookwood McLean, mis spelt - clutching at straws here, but apart from "Stephi's Red", susbsequently changed to "Mary Ann Murray" around 2004/5 for memory, all study name roses were given earliest known grave or a location name, such as "Derek's Ofice Rose".
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Reply #5 of 7 posted 19 SEP 14 by Margaret Furness
Could well have been. The grower used to write the plant names on wooden icecream sticks, which are quite narrow, and reading them at times involved some guesswork. Barbara did send us McLean in that batch.
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Reply #6 of 7 posted 19 SEP 14 by Jane Z
ok, that's probably what happened, deciphering BM's handwriting on to an ice cream stick - LOL - & given you don't have McLean, (one of theOphelia tribe) it's a reasonable assumption - wouldn't pass a strict provenance due diligence test, but ... :)
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Reply #7 of 7 posted today by HubertG
I made a comment under one of the photos of the pink "Bird Children" comparing it to a catalogue photo from 1910 of 'The Queen'. The habit and shape of flowers is strikingly similar. Also the foliage seems to be semi-glossy with slightly undulating edges. This can be seen even more clearly in other "Bird Children" photos as well.
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Initial post today by HubertG
The photo id 323569 of 'The Queen' from the 1910 Glen Saint Mary Nurseries catalogue is, in my opinion, a dead ringer for this rose in the habit of the arching branches, nodding flowers and also the shape/profile of the flowers. The foliage seems to be very similar too. It would perhaps strengthen the argument that this could be 'Souvenir d'un Ami' (or at least that the white "Bird Children" from which the pink sported is 'The Queen").
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Initial post 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Does anyone know how this rose grows in a cool wet climate?
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Reply #1 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Robert Neil Rippetoe
I've heard 'Ena Harkness' is better for cooler climates.
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Reply #2 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Marlorena
I don't have it, but I would just give it a try and see for yourself... I'm afraid I couldn't grow a rose called 'Ena'... it would remind me too much of ''Ena Sharples''... [sorry, Andrew will know]…
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Reply #3 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Three own-root plants of ‘Crimson Glory’ in different locations in my garden, all from a healthy named plant in my shopping town. My three are all very low, certainly under a foot in height, probably not worth the garden space but when they bloom, I am glad I have them.
I also grow what I believe is ‘Ena Harkness’ on its own roots. This was bred from ‘Crimson Glory’ and on its own roots here, is equally low.

Marlorena, could you grow a rose called ‘Violet Carson’?
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Reply #4 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Marlorena
Patricia.... now we're talking... yes absolutely.. and I think if I remember she was a very well spoken lady too... great character though old 'Ena'... we all loved her really, back in the day.. there was one in every village...
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Reply #5 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
And due to a character called Edna, I don't grow gladioli.
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Reply #6 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Marlorena
ha!.... me neither Margaret....
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Reply #7 of 25 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
I do. I grow the beautiful Old Gladioli cardinalus (?) that I found in old Group Settlement gardens around our town. I’ll add a photo later,
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Reply #8 of 25 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Oh no Margaret was a monster not welcome in my garden (I not talking about Margaret Furness).... I might have a stab at 'Ena Harkness' then as it is such a historically important rose though I don't care for it much. I'm slightly resigned to the fact I need to grow 'SuperStar'. My grandmother grew them quite well but that was on chalky soil right by the sea. Marlorena I'm very surprised you don't grow Gladiolus byzantinus, everyone round here calls them Cousin Jacks.
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Reply #9 of 25 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Cousin Jacks and Cousin Jennies used to mean recent immigrants from Cornwall, in 19th century South Australia.
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Reply #10 of 25 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Yes that's right and Marlorna is from Cornwall. The Cornish call people from Devon Janners.
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Reply #11 of 25 posted yesterday by Marlorena
Yes I like Gladiolus byzantinus, the purple ones, but I ended up with the 'italicus' version, which is pink and did not like these too much, so they're gone... the wind here, which is ferocious, usually blew them all over in any case unfortunately..

Andrew,... you are quite right.. Cornish born and bred, but let me tell you, I've never heard of the word 'Janners', not ever, this is the first time for me.. in fact I don't remember anything relating to people from Devon in particular... I wonder if it's a newer term?... or perhaps I was brought up with such a degree of refinement that it simply passed me by?..[joke]…

..but please get the clotted cream right.... jam first !...
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Reply #12 of 25 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
Janner originated from the dockyards near Plymouth because the Cornish thought all Devon people were called Jan, the Devon form of John, like the song, "With Bill Brewer, Jan Stewer, Peter Gurney, Peter Davy, Dan'l Whiddon, Harry Hawke,...". It became Janner for a Devon person. It is used slightly derogatory but not offensively. My friend forgot the lead for her rather scruffy jack russell dog so used a piece of string and someone commented, "You got a roight janner dag there".
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Reply #16 of 25 posted yesterday by Marlorena
lol.... ''and Old Uncle Tom Cobbly 'n all''... gosh that takes me back... I really didn't know that about Janner, that's interesting..

Talking of the 18th Century reminds me of smugglers in that area, of which some of my own family members were still involved into the 1960's [contraband watches from France].. we were all born and raised in old Cob thatched cottages on the banks of the Helford River... this is where we think Daphne du Maurier got it slightly wrong when she used 'Frenchman's Creek' for her novel because it's very much on the wrong side of the Helford.. it flows up from the south, and the object was to get your goods offloaded onto the London road heading north towards Jamaica Inn... so they would have used creeks flowing into the Helford from the north, such as Polwheveral, where I was born and all my family lived, and Porth Navas.. but these don't sound so romantic..
As anyone knows today who is driving around Frenchman's Creek, it's a long, winding road through twisting lanes, to get to the modern day London Road.. it's so much quicker if you're already on the north bank of the Helford... great scenery though, all around..
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Reply #17 of 25 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
People were singing it in the pub the other week. I was told recently when I only had a sun tan on my arms and around my neck that I had a janner tan.
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Reply #18 of 25 posted yesterday by Marlorena
I'll really have to remember this word next time I speak to my niece... she lives in Devon... I'm sure she'll be nothing short of amused...
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Reply #13 of 25 posted yesterday by Marlorena
Actually, reading Margaret's post, referring to Jennies, obviously this is a very old term, not modern... I'm wondering now if Janners was used more by middle to northern Cornish, those nearer the Devon border... as the old dialect from the town of St. Austell in Cornwall and heading towards Devon, had strong Devon influences.. people I knew who lived there used to talk that way, using word endings familiar in Devon, but different to those from where I come from [Falmouth]…

Examples are the words 'you' and 'we'.. pronounced 'youm' and 'we'm the further north you went in Cornwall, which is how they said it in parts of Devon so I understood...
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Reply #14 of 25 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
them'm, you still hear now. AND it's cream FRIST!
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Reply #15 of 25 posted yesterday by Marlorena
ah yes... 'they'm' or however it's said.. and No !!!!!!.. lol...
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Reply #19 of 25 posted yesterday by Margaret Furness
Here they're called Devonshire Teas, not Cream Teas. And I've never seen or heard of cream first.
We do good Cornish pasties, too.
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Reply #20 of 25 posted yesterday by Andrew from Dolton
And 'Devoniensis' is a cream Tea too! I think you'll find it's only the Cornish that do this abomination to their scones. A Cornish pasty is crimped around the edge whilst a Devon pasty is crimped across the top. They should only contain swede, teddies (potatoes), skirt beef and lots of pepper.
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Reply #21 of 25 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
Ah - it is good to see the conversation getting back to a ROSE! even though 'Devoniensis' has nothing to do with 'Crimson Glory'.
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Reply #22 of 25 posted today by Jay-Jay
The climbing version does well at my place and Marnix's. It even forms nice big hips. Mine is in partial shade (pH high). And Marnix's is growing in a wet peat soil (pH low).
Normally the Dutch climate is wet and cool.
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Reply #23 of 25 posted today by Andrew from Dolton
That's interesting Jay-Jay. I need another climber (you know how one always does...) and I wanted one to repeat flower, my soil is acidic and damp too.
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Reply #24 of 25 posted today by Jay-Jay
Tiffany Cl. and Sutter's Gold Cl. perform well too.
Marnix is very content about the performance of his climbing Tea-rose Lady Hillingdon Cl. But that-one is planted near his house... Oops, I see now, that You already have this rose.
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Reply #25 of 25 posted today by Andrew from Dolton
No I don't grow it personally but look after it for other people up in the village. In both cases it is grown against south facing walls. I'm sure my garden would be too cold for it. 'Sutter's Gold' is interesting though.
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Initial post today by Jay-Jay
That's wonderfulllllll Warren!
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