HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'Alika' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 106-264
most recent 2 NOV SHOW ALL
 
Initial post 29 OCT by Raynyk
I agree with the other comments about Alika's resemblance to R. gallica splendens.
R. gallica splendens are synonymous with Frankfurt (and probably R. francofurtana) and Valamoruusu.

Valamoruusu was and is widespread in Finland, who was a part of Russia at the time, and St Petersburg are very close to Finland in any case.
It's not far fetched to theorise that when Hansen collected material at St Petersburg it was a Valamoruusu clone he brought with him.

And as Valamoruusu have been identified as synonymous to Rosa gallica splendens and Frankfurt, all these entries should be merged. Or at least the similarities could be commented in some way at the description pages.


Per Arvid Åsen and Per Harald Salvesen also say that all of the aforementioned are synonymous.

"På jakt efter gamle kulturminnesroser i gamle hager langs kysten av Norge" 2010
(My own free translation: Searching for old garden roses along the coast of Norway)
Per Harald Salvesen, Arboretet og Botanisk hage, Bergens Museum.
Per Arvid Åsen, Agder Naturmuseum og Botanisk hage.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 3 posted 31 OCT by jedmar
We will add a note until other sources confirm that 'Alika' and 'Rosa gallica splendens' are synonymous. Can you post the corresponding Norwegian text from the book of Salvesen and Åsen? Rosa francofurtana Borkh. is said to be slightly different than 'Rosa gallica splendens'. It seems that there are variations.
REPLY
Reply #2 of 3 posted 1 NOV by Raynyk
To be more clear, the Norwegian paper references to Finnish studies by Hämet-Ahti. I don't have access to that book but in the Norwegian papers reference list I found this:
Hämet-Ahti, L., Palmen, A., Alanko, P. & Tigerstedt, P.M.A. 1992. – Soumen puu- ja pensas-
kasvio – Dendrologian Seura – Denddroloska Sällskapet r.y., Helsinki, 373 s.


I quoted some from the Norwegian paper, maybe insufficient as a reference but interesting at least:
(Rosa 'Frankfurt' mis-
appl?, før 1809?, syn.: Rosa gallica
'Splendens' Foerster 1911, Rosa gal-
lica 'Grandifl ora' Regel & Kesselring,
'Valamonruusu' i Finland).
...
Forekomstene i Norge dan-
ner en fortsettelse av utbredelsen i Sverige, Finland og etter det vi forstår, av vestlige
Russland (Hämet-Ahti et al 1992; Gustavsson 2008). Den er lett å kjenne på at blom-
stene vanligvis bare har 8-10 kronblad og er klart, nesten rent røde før de blåner noe
mot slutten. Dessuten er blomsterbunnen og nypen svært karakteristisk med sin tyde-
lige hals.
...
Vi har ikke funnet noe som tyder på at den ble dyrket i Frankfurt i Tyskland
på 1500-tallet. Sporene bakover i historien fører derimot til tsarens botaniske hage i
St. Petersburg (Alanko et al 1997; Joy 2006), der Rosa gallica 'Grandifl ora' i katalogen
til Regel & Kesselring (ca. 1900) er bestemt til Rosa gallica 'Splendens'/'Frankfurt'
( Jäger 1936; Lindström 2007). Samme rose er kjent i USA som 'Alika' (Hämet-Ahti
et al. 1992). 'Alika' ble kjøpt hos Regel & Kesselring og innført til Nord-Amerika i
1906 ( Joy 2006). Den tidligste illustrasjonen vi har kommet over som kan bestemmes
noenlunde sikkert, er tab. 107 hos Jacquin 1809. Den viser en plante fra botanisk hage
i Wien, der den i følge Jacquin blomstret rikt. Den svarer meget godt til en rose med
enkle eller doble blomster beskrevet som R. turbinata av Crépin (1869-1880) basert
på planter han fant viltvoksende så vel som dyrket – også i botanisk hage – i Wien.
REPLY
Reply #3 of 3 posted 2 NOV by jedmar
Maybe one of our Finnish members has "Suomen puu- ja pensas-kasvio" by Leene Hämet-Ahti et al. and can look up and post the original text. The Norwegian text states:

The occurrences in Norway form a continuation of the spread in Sweden, Finland and, according to what we understand, of Western Russia (Hämet-Ahti et al 1992; Gustavsson 2008). It is easy to recognize as the flowers usually only have 8-10 petals and are clear, almost pure red before they bleed slightly towards the end. In addition, the flower bottom and the nip are very distinctive with their distinctive neck.
We have not found anything that indicates that it was grown in Frankfurt, Germany in the 1500s. However, the traces back in history lead to the Tsar Botanical Garden St. Petersburg (Alanko et al 1997; Joy 2006), the Rosa Gallica 'Grandiflora' in the Regel & Kesselring catalog (about 1900) is intended for Rosa Gallica
'Splendens' / 'Frankfurt' (Jäger 1936; Lindström 2007). The same rose is known in the United States as 'Alika' (Hämet-Ahti et al. 1992). 'Alika' was purchased from Regel & Kesselring and introduced to North America in 1906 (Joy 2006). The earliest illustration we've come across that can be determined fairly certainly is tab. 107 at Jacquin 1809. It shows a plant from the botanical garden of Vienna, which, according to Jacquin, flourished richly. It corresponds very well to a rose of simple or double flowers described as R. turbinata of Crépin (1869-1880) based on plants he found sprawling as well as grown - also in the botanical garden - in Vienna.

This gives us some more leads to follow-up. The link to the Regel catalogue is quite promising. Best would be to have 'Alika' and ''Rosa gallica splendens' resp. "Valamonruusu" growing side by side to compare. According to our records this seems to be only the case in the Hana Festa park in Japan and Rosenhang Karben in Germany, not in private collections.
REPLY
Discussion id : 103-807
most recent 1 AUG HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 1 AUG by Sambolingo
Available from - Old Market Farm
www.oldmarketfarm.com
REPLY
Discussion id : 73-372
most recent 3 AUG 13 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 3 AUG 13 by CybeRose
Hardy Roses for South Dakota (1929)
Niels Ebbesen Hansen

This rose was received from Russia in the fall of 1906, and was selected by N. E. Hansen at the Regel & Kesselring Nursery at St. Petersburg, on the 1906 tour enroute to Siberia.

Flowers large, fragrant, semi-double, with as high as 46 petals, with many stamens. The color is a brilliant red with no purple in it. The plant is hardy. Flowers abundant in June but not throughout the season.

This rose is worthy of propagation owing to its bright red color and hardiness. No notes as to the origin of this rose are available at the present time.

Since the full name, Rosa gallica grandiflora, is too long for every day use, the name, Alika, adapted from the Latin name (with the "i" as in "like"), has been given for convenience in recent years by the writer.
REPLY
Discussion id : 64-982
most recent 11 JUN 12 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 10 JUN 12 by Daniel from Normandy
Bonjour,
I don't see any difference between 'Alika' and 'Gallica splendens' !
Could you clarify ?
Both have nothing to do with 1583 nor with a francofurtana
Kindly yours
Daniel
REPLY
Reply #1 of 2 posted 11 JUN 12 by jedmar
There are many who state that 'Gallica splendens' is in reality a francofurtana. Re 'Alika', you might have received a plant which ist the same as 'Gallica splendens'. Can you explain your view for discussion?
REPLY
Reply #2 of 2 posted 11 JUN 12 by Roseraie "Roses de Normandie"
Thank you for your response.
I think that there is a widespread confusion concerning Francofurtana (probably due to the misleading synonymy 'turbinata' introduced by Aiton, 1789)
If you go to the pictures of "Francofurtana" on HelpMeFind you will see that there is a total disagreement between the presented figures : the painting by Jacquin is very different from the others pictures concerning the ovary. Indeed, the painting by Jacquin is wrong and does not represent Francofurtana but an other rose. Look also at the pictures by De L'Ecluse (Clusius) for his Rosa sine spinis (1601), or by Redouté as well as by Willmott and you will have confirmation that the ovary of the true Francofurtana is very large (this rose was called 'A gros cul' in France!). Prévost (1829) is very clear "ovaire au collet évasé sans étranglement". This kind of large ovary is also found on the francofurtana 'Imperatrice Joséphine'.
Thus, there is no synonymy between francofurtana and 'gallica splendens' or 'Alika'. These last 2 roses looking very similar on HelpMeFind.
Kindly yours,
Daniel
Roses de Normandie
REPLY
© 2017 HelpMeFind.com