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'Rose de Chine à fleurs blanches' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 111-472
most recent 13 JUN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 13 JUN by CybeRose
The Farmer's Register, 1(6): 339 (Nov 1833)

The Nondescript, Cherokee Rose, the Rosa Leonigesta [sic], of botanists, is used for hedges in South Carolina and in Georgia, where it has, in some places, succeeded admirably well, when in others it has failed. This failure may have arisen from the unsuitableness of the soil, the want of due care in the course of the planting and cultivating it when young; but more particularly, perhaps, from the aptitude of the rose tribe to die when least expected, without our. being able to discover the cause. One of the objections to it is, that as a hedge, it covers a great deal of ground, and that cattle are fond of eating its young shoots. I have no means of judging whether it would thrive as far north as Virginia. It grows admirably well on the banks of low rich grounds, and wherever the soil is not very poor and dry.
Discussion id : 111-469
most recent 13 JUN HIDE POSTS
Initial post 13 JUN by CybeRose
A Rose by Any Name p. 46 (2009)
By Douglas Brenner, Stephen Scanniello
On April 19, 1804, Thomas Jefferson wrote in his garden notebook: “Planted seeds of the Cherokee rose … near the N.E. corner of the Nursery.”
Discussion id : 97-481
most recent 8 MAY SHOW ALL
Initial post 12 FEB 17 by JasonSims1984
I wonder why this rose hasn't been used in hybridizing very much. Those glossy leaves clearly offer some potential. Rugosa x laevigata ought to be a no brainer for a disease resistant and climate adapted line.
Reply #1 of 12 posted 15 FEB 17 by Salix
People have tried! It does not cross easily.
Reply #2 of 12 posted 16 FEB 17 by JasonSims1984
I see. Do its descendents have the same problem? Is it being used in tet crosses or dip? I kind of feel like creating a diploid line of roses could be a very profitable venture. Reinvent the hybrid tea as a diploid.

Hollandica looks kind of promising as a starting point.

(Moschata x Chinensis) x Rugosa.

Gigantea and chinensis are dip. It just needs the appropriate tea to get the right flower form. If no one else has done it, I certainly will.
Reply #3 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
American Rose Annual, 16: 45-51 (1931)
Breeding Better Roses
Rev. George M. A. Schoener, Santa Barbara, Calif.

Eliminating mildew seems also possible through a new strain of hybrid Laevigata roses. Heretofore, it was claimed that R. laevigata, better known as Cherokee, does not make seed, and that other species and types would not take its pollen. Such is not the case, as hundreds of combinations were made with Laevigata as seed-bearer, using pollen from Hybrid Teas, Teas, Hybrid Perpetuals, and Pernetianas. Pollen of Laevigata used on Gigantea has proved that even the Gigantea foliage can be improved, making it much more rigid and glossy, a sure preventive of mildew. In the face of such success it is surely deplorable that the continuation of this experiment is most doubtful. Without further support, these far-reaching experiments are doomed, the more so as it is unlikely that Dr. Crocker will be able to take care of the germination work for the second generation, if nobody else finds it worth while to help push the work to a completion where it would be possible to write out reliable, mathematically correct findings to become the basis for others to carry on systematic rose-breeding.
Reply #4 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
Rural New Yorker, Volume 67: 788 (Oct 10, 1908)
Walter Van Fleet (1908)
AUTHENTIC CHEROKEE HYBRIDS.—Notwithstanding the vigorous growth of the Cherokee rose under favorable conditions it appears difficult to produce artificial hybrids of sufficient vitality to grow to flowering size. We have made many crossings on the Rural Grounds, using a typical plant for the seed parent, and fertilizing with pollen from many desirable garden roses and rose species. There is little difficulty in growing the resulting hybrid seedlings for a season or two, but even with the most careful glasshouse treatment they decline and die before the blooming age is reached. We have propagated some of the most promising by cuttings, and have even budded them on the parent Cherokee but without success, all perishing without bloom, though canes six feet long have been produced. The only exceptions are two plants of Cherokee x Frau Karl Druschki, a white Hybrid Perpetual, that are now entering their third year with some promise of continued growth. A very striking common feature of the hundred or more Cherokee hybrids we have grown is the entire disappearance of the characteristics of the mother plant. In no instance were the hooked prickles and narrow glossy foliage of Cherokee reproduced. The general type even when pollen from the most diverse sorts was used, is dwarf and bushy, with slender straight thorns or spines and foliage of the character of the pollen parent. One exception was produced by pollen of Marshal Niel, the well-known climbing yellow rose of northern greenhouses. This hybrid had hooked spines and intermediate foliage. Several propagations of it were made and buds inserted in various stocks, some growing strongly for a season or two, but all died without producing a flower, though one of the best plants was sent to a careful California grower for trial.
Reply #5 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
Burbank's 1918 offering of twentieth century: fruits, flowers and various economic plants p. 16

Cathay: Cherokee and Crimson Rambler cross. Extra strong grower and profuse bloomer. Single flowers deep rose-pink, in clusters, each blossom 1 1/2 inches in diameter. Does not fade and does not mildew. Field grown plant, each, $1.

Garland: Cherokee and Crimson Rambler cross. Strong grower, fine foliage, does not mildew. Flowers of a light shell-pink color in enormous clusters; each cluster a perfect bouquet which lasts, without fading, for a long time. Field grown plant, each, $1.

Burbank (New Creations, 1893) reported a hybrid of Rosa rugosa x R. sinica [laevigata]. No description.
Reply #6 of 12 posted 7 MAY by CybeRose
The Garden 49: 488-489 (June 27, 1896)
*A paper by the Rt. Hon. Lord Penzance in "The Rosarian's Year-Book," 1895.
"Another experiment must be recorded which up to the present time has not met with success. The beautiful glossy foliage of the Rosa camelliaefolia [laevigata] is very inviting to the eye of the hybridiser, and if I could only transfer this foliage to some of our Hybrid Perpetuals, I should consider it a useful triumph. But I could not get the camelliaefolia to flower. From what I have read in the gardening publications I conclude that other people have met with the same difficulty. At last my opportunity came. The splendid sunny season of 1893 ripened the wood of my plant so thoroughly, that in 1894 it gave me twenty flowers. Two of these I treated with the pollen of other plants, but obtained no hips. The remaining eighteen I reserved for pollen, with which I fertilised the blooms of numerous Hybrid Perpetuals. I had a good crop of seed, and I have, perhaps, a hundred plants. In vain have I looked for a shiny leaf. Many of the seedlings have a foliage inclining that way, and certainly different from that of the seed parent, but none (unless as they grow up they put on a more glossy appearance) carry the true Camellia-like leaf which was the object of my quest."
Reply #7 of 12 posted 7 MAY by JasonSims1984
Fascinating. What about Pink Cherokee? Is that a useful direction to go? Something like Mermaid x Pink Cherokee. That way you're getting bracteata and laevigata glossy leaves and excellent rebloom from the tea parents.
Reply #8 of 12 posted 8 MAY by CybeRose
That seems like a stretch, considering that neither Mermaid nor Anemone is quite fertile. It might be more useful to back cross each to the parent species. (Bracteata x Mermaid) and (Laevigata x Anemone or Ramona). At least that way there would be a better chance of restoring fertility before going the long distance between Bracteata and Laevigata.
Reply #9 of 12 posted 8 MAY by JasonSims1984
That was a fascinating article, thank you.

I wonder though. Both Mermaid and Anemone have tea ancestry too. Kordes developed x Kordesii from 2 highly incompatible species: rugosa and wichurana, which yielded an infertile once blooming hybrid called Max Graft, which when selfed produced a tetraploid that is remontant, fertile, and compatible with modern roses.

It's also highly disease resistant and basically every rose growing in zone 4 and lower pretty much is derived from Kordesii. So I have to imagine that these kinds of far reaching crosses would be a game changer for hybrid vigor.

I wonder if Pearl Drift or Pink Surprise could be used as bridge plants. I think Kim Rupert likes to use Orangeade for crosses that have low fertility. It basically is fertile with everything.

It's all very fascinating. Combining the leathery foliage of bracteata with the glossy foliage of laevigata would basically give roses Camellia foliage. Imagine having rugosa texture as well. Rugosa has been crossed succesfully with bracteata, and all three of these species have succesfully crossed with teas and chinas. I think that the right parents could combine the best traits and still be fertile.

If need be, they could be converted to tetraploids.

Thank you for the scientific literature!
Reply #10 of 12 posted 8 MAY by CybeRose
Twice now I've tried to post a reply, but apparently timed out. Then I have to start over. This time I'll post the parts.

The following account makes it apparent that Kordesii resulted from an unreduced ovum and visited by pollen from some other variety - presumably a double red rebloomer. G12, on the other hand, is closer to being a tetraploid 'Max Graf'.

Euphytica 26(3): 703-708 (1977)
Breeding for improvement of flowering attributes of winterhardy Rosa kordesii Wulff hybrids
Felicitas Svejda
"G12 was obtained from open pollination of 'Max Graf' and a cytological examination by Dr D. R. Sampson, of this Station, found it to be tetraploid (2n = 4x = 28). G12 differs from R. kordesii in that it is very hardy at Ottawa where it shows little or no winterkill. It flowers non-recurrently and produces fewer flowers. It has single, pink flowers like 'Max Graf'. R. kordesii is regularly killed to the snow-line at Ottawa, it flowers recurrently and is more floriferous than G12. Unlike 'Max Graf, R. kordesii has double flowers."

I seem to recall some controversy regarding 'Pearl Drift'. I have recorded 'New Dawn' as the seed parent, but don't recall the source for that information. The HMF pictures don't show me anything that could not have come from 'New Dawn' without outside help.

More colchicine tetraploids:

Reply #11 of 12 posted 8 MAY by JasonSims1984
I sent Bill LeGrice an email asking about Pearl Drift. He seems like a nice guy, so I hope he doesn't mind me quoting him.

Thanks for your enquiry
Pearl Drift was bred by my father E B LeGrice from New Dawn and Mermaid. The parentage caused some controversy as people such as the late Jack Harkness said that Mermaid was sterile and not capable of being a
parent. From memory we had a small batch of seedlings from that cross so consider it a hybrid rather than a self pollinated seedling. The size of the flower plus the repeat flowering nature and almost evergreen foliage would also suggest a distinct cross
Pearl Drift has proved to be extremely tough and disease resistant, and flowers from late May until the frosts. foliage is shiny and in a sheltered spot a virtual evergreen. When grown in places such as Monaco and California it tends to be classified as a climber because of its vigour. The 'climbing ' form was considered a sport in California and accepted by the ARS as such but I personally think climate dictated the vigour
When the shrub rose was introduced in the '80's we planted a bed of Pearl Drift in the local church yard, along with two other varieties. The other rose beds were replaced twice and then had shrubs planted in their place. The Pearl Drift is still flowering and growing well.
Generally the new range of repeat flowering ramblers such as Perennial Blue, Super Fairy and Rambling Rosie are proving excellent free flowering plants as too the Noake range of repeat flowering shrub roses including Pink Flower Carpet
I wish you success in your endeavours
Kind regards
Bill LeGrice"
Reply #12 of 12 posted 8 MAY by CybeRose
"From memory we had a small batch of seedlings from that cross so consider it a hybrid rather than a self pollinated seedling. The size of the flower plus the repeat flowering nature and almost evergreen foliage would also suggest a distinct cross"

It seems to me that this makes 'New Dawn' the probable seed parent. Otherwise, the "repeat flowering nature and almost evergreen foliage" would not be an issue. 'Mermaid' is both.

'New Dawn' was a sport from 'Dr. W. Van Fleet' [(R. wichuraiana x Safrano) x Souvenir du Président Carnot]. In the U.S. it reblooms, but I've read that it does not do so in Europe.
Discussion id : 110-579
most recent 7 MAY HIDE POSTS
Initial post 7 MAY by CybeRose
Gardening 10: 198-199 (Mar 15, 1902)
Hybrid Stocks for Rose Propagation
Walter Van Fleet

... Perle des Jardins, budded on an established plant of the Cherokee rose, Rosa laevigata, is giving splendid blooms of almost exhibition quality, in a cold, damp house where five years' effort with potted Perles on own roots and Manetti only resulted in a chance “bullhead” once or twice a year. Further trials will be made with teas and hybrid teas on this stock.
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