HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
DescriptionPhotosLineageAwardsReferencesMember RatingsMember CommentsMember JournalsCuttingsGardensBuy From 
'Cluster Monthly Rose' Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 82-074
most recent 26 DEC 14 SHOW ALL
Initial post 16 DEC 14 by CybeRose
Montaigne (15 Nov 1580) - Montaigne arrived in Ferrara, Italy, where he saw "several beautiful churches, gardens, and private mansions, and everything that could be called notable—among the others, at the Jesuates', a specimen of a rose which blooms every month of the year; and indeed they found one which they gave to Monsieur Montaigne."
Dalechamps (1587) - Rosa Pestanae bifera
Ferrari (1633) - Rosa Italica flore subrubente perpetua (omnium mensium)
Hanmer (1659) - Rosa Italica = Monethly Rose
Rea (1665) - Rosa mensalis = The monethly Rose
Quintinye (1695) - Tous-les-Mois Rose = a sort of red Musk Rose
Liger (1706) - Rosa Omnium Calendarum, The Every Month Rose, Italian double and perpetual Rose.
Miller (1724) - Monthly and Cluster Monthly. Rosa omnium Calendarum or Italian double everlasting Rose.
Furber (1730) - White Monthly
Ehret (1740s) - Striped Monthly
Martyn (1807) - Red and White Monthly Roses
Pemberton (1920) - The earliest varieties of the Damask are supposed to be the Red Monthly and the White Monthly, both producing a second and even a third crop of flowers in favourable seasons.
Reply #1 of 2 posted 25 DEC 14 by Hardy
I'm not quite sure what to think of Dalechamps on this subject, it seems like he's caught up in the old damask-musk confusion. After saying that cultivated and wild roses generally bloom in May and June, he says (Historia Generalis Plantarum, p. 118),
"Rosae Damascenae seu Moschatae etiam Maio, sed iterum Septembri mense, sive Autumno, quod nemini mirum videri debet, cum sint etiam Pestanae Rosae biferae Virgilio."

Per my awful Latin, this would be, roughly, "The Damask or Musk roses also in May, and again in September, or Autumn, which shouldn't come as a surprise, since it's also called the twice-bearing Paestan rose of Virgil."

The accompanying illustration of R. damascena (p. 115) looks like a thorny specimen of Single Musk. I have a hard time reaching any conclusion.
Reply #2 of 2 posted 26 DEC 14 by CybeRose
Thanks for bringing this to my attention. I got my information from a micro-opaque (a positive print from a microfiche) back in 2001. Today I found it on-line and checked again.

I think you skipped a line. The "May and June" refers to "Rosae sativae & sylvestres". The "Rosae Damascenae seu Moschatae" bloomed in May, then again in September.

Rosa moschata, as I've seen it, continues flowering through the summer and autumn without a break. So, the twice-blooming rose he had in mind must have been closer to a damask in the modern sense.

Also, I think Dalechamps used "Moschatae" broadly to mean roses noted for their fragrance. He also mentioned the "elegantia Rosae Moschatae, vulgo Eglantier".

Finally, I'm glad to have a closer look at this book. Dalechamps wrote of "Luteae sylvestres sunt in Africa: sunt & Caeruleae in Hortis Italicis."

Compare this with Lobel (1576):
"Pares & cognatiores illis Luteas, cùm aliàs saepe vidimus Argiera Affricae ex Numidia, Galliae inquilinas factas: tum in Anglia consimiles, solerti manu in Genistae scapù insitas, unde colorem, odorem, viresque mutuantur novas. Est & iamdiu videre Caeruleae in hortis Italicis.”

I'm still trying to learn of some earlier sources. this "caeruleae" is obviously a misreading of "ceruleae"; the roses were red-orange (cerulea) not blue (caerulea). The original misreading occurred by the 12th century, because Muhammad Ibn al-Áwwam, writing in Arabic, also discussed yellow/blue and blue/yellow roses. His sources must have been written in Latin because the color confusion involves a single letter in that language.

Discussion id : 82-073
most recent 16 DEC 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 16 DEC 14 by CybeRose
Rivers (1846) p. 131
Our very old Damask Rose, the red monthly, not the comparatively new rose, "rose à quatres saisons" of the French, but the red monthly rose of our oldest writers on gardening, is probably the rose which was cultivated so extensively in Egypt and in Rome for its quality of flowering in autumn.

This passage is in the 1843 edition, but "rose à quatres saisons" is not mentioned.
Discussion id : 81-736
most recent 18 NOV 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 18 NOV 14 by Hardy
Here's a translation of Ferrari (The Art of Botany, 1638), courtesy of DistantDrummer:

"From pp. 202-3

The Damask Class (Group)

And of the characteristically faint scented full flower of the Damask Rose, which some including Pliny called the Coroneola or Autumn Rose, and others explained as the Spineola or Littled Spined Rose, the trunk gradually turns darker [dark red or purple literally] from green, and within its multibranched thicket, the verily uncrowded spines arm the growing and extensive canes/stalks with a saturated color, (spines that are) short, hard, dark red, and hooked broadly from the base into bent back thorns/prickles.

The Class of Flowers Tinged with Red or Purple

Of the commonly sown (rose) that lightly turns red from white with dense leaves, which Pliny ascribed as the Alabandican, and other well noted writers called the Trachanian, the canes are shorter and suckering/branching, narrower, somewhat green, usually densely packed with smaller and larger prickles in a dull pale-slate color, and threatening with outstretched points.

The Varigated Double Flowered, The Italian Perpetual Double Flowered

The variety which is spotted with a faint red on its many petaled flower, said to be the Praenestine, is equally bristled with sharp thorns. The Italian variety which always pleasantly turns red, similar to the previous two varieties above, is ferocious with dense prickles.

p.364 (Following discussion of how to care for gallicas)

They say that the Italic (rose) is similar to the previously mentioned rose, however that it is more famous, that it demands careful maintenance [because of? There could be a causal sense to this participle] always being green, that it is perpetual or the rose of all months: because that one, rather often being the first pruned, displays the most tightly packed buds of its flower bunch (inflorescence/spray) to look at all together, which (buds) the variety then opens gradually part by part until another continuous pruning of the flowers [usque is difficult to place in the English, but it gets across the idea that this entire process of deadheading and flowering is continuous]; so that it seems they induce themselves with flowers together in each of the months. Moreover on this matter, the variety differs with a much higher number of buds, and especially by the continuousness of its flowers differs greatly from the previous one, which, less rich [i.e. it is stingy] of its purple bloom, opens more rarely with alabaster colored blooms. The result, therefore, is that the perpetual (variety) shows the signs of spring in all or at least most months, and often during the year it needs to be pruned at least twice. At the end of each October, the whole top (of the plant) is cut back to the ground with a straight cut, so that it might push back from harshness: for having been prepared thus, more numerous buds will over winter with flowery fertility."
Discussion id : 81-255
most recent 24 OCT 14 HIDE POSTS
Initial post 24 OCT 14 by Hardy
An interesting statement is found in 'Colloquies on the Simples and Drugs of India' (1563), written by a Portuguese doctor who'd spent decades there, Garcia da Orta. The end is presented as a dialogue, intended to cover subjects missed in the main text. One of the questions is apparently about Damask roses. From the English translation of 1895, p. 484:


Referring to the way of Ormuz, conversing with the Moors of Persia, they tell me about the Persian roses, so called by Avicenna, which we call acuquare rosado de Alexandria. Are these roses of Persia held to be soluble ? for we find those that are brought and planted to be so.


That medicine is much used among the inhabitants of Persia and Ormuz. For a man it is a light purgative in a good quantity, and boiled it is stronger. They give it boiled in 10-ounce doses with a little sugar..."

The name of the rose translates as "rosy (or pink) sugar of Alexandria," possibly related to the traditional sales of sugar-coated damask petals as a delicious medicine. The translator footnoted the term "Persian rose," saying it was R. damascena, but didn't explain why. At least one of the references here at HMF says the Autumn Damask has been called the Rose of Alexandria in Spanish, which seems related, and hints at a possible common origin for Damasks on the Iberian peninsula. Avicenna (early 11th century) seems to be the authority da Orta relies on, so may document that Damasks were known in Persia a thousand years ago. So far, in Book 2 of his Canon of Medicine, I've only found reference to Rosa canina and Gol-e Sorkh, the latter of which has been variously translated as R. damascena or R. centifolia, but since it means "red rose," da Orta's statement may be based either on contemporary misunderstanding, or from the damascena reference being in another of Avicenna's works.
© 2017