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Initial post
7 AUG 13 by
 jedmar
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Actually the entry does not say "origin" China, but a "yellow China". The origination in 1823 is 1 year before Parks' Rose came to England.
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#1 of 4 posted
10 AUG 13 by
Rockhill
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Granted - but in his 1830 edition Sweet has a column for origin, which shows China for R. indica odorata v flavescens and collection date of 1823. He lists the same date for the Yellow Banksia rose, so I think both these entries refer to roses collected in China by Parks in 1823. These roses did not arrive in England until 1824. I will post the 1830 Sweet listing under the Parks Yellow entry.
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#2 of 4 posted
28 NOV 16 by
CybeRose
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Noisette began distributing Knight's yellow China in 1825. The flowers smaller than the Blush Tea-scented and less fragrant. In 1826 he was selling Parks' Tea-scented which had flowers larger than the Blush Tea-scented.
Louis Noisette: Manuel Complet du Jardinier 4: 521-523 (1826)
p. 521
54. Rosier de l'Inde. R. indica; de Pronv. De la Chine.
1. Rose thé, ou odoratissima. Fleurs très-grande, odorantes. Sous-variétiés;
-- 18. Bengale jaune, ou sulfureux; fleurs plus petites, jaunâtres, moins odorantes.
p. 523
56. Rosier du Bengale. R. semperflorens, Pronv. R. sinensis; Willd. R. bengalensis; Pers. R. indica; Lindl. etc.
-- 23. Bengale soufre. Fleurs doubles, d'un jaune pâle, ayant la forme et la grandeur de la rose thé.
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#3 of 4 posted
28 NOV 16 by
jedmar
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There were indeed different yellow Teas or Chinas in commerce. I am interpreting Noisette's "Manuel complet" as follows:
p. 521, No. 18 Bengale jaune, ou sulfureux: As you say, smaller bloom, less fragrant. The "less" pertains to No. 1-17 above, which is the Rose Thé or odoratissima, i.e 'Bengale jaune' is smaller, yellowish and less fragrant than the Tea Rose 'Humes Blush' and its descendants.
We have, however, at least 3 earlier mentions of 'Bengale jaune':
- In 1821, "Le Bon Jardinier" (p.809) states that Dr. Cartier obtained that year a yellow double seedling of the Rose Bengale, which Mr. Noisette has seen with interest.
- In Vibert's "Essai sue les Roses" (1824), 'Bengale jaune' announced in 1821, was seen at Dr. Cartier. The English were at the time selling Rosa arvensis to the French (incl. Vibert) as 'Bengale jaune'!
- "Le Bon Jardinier" in 1826, mentions 'Bengale jaune' in flower at the nursery of Cels, declared a sub-variety of the Tea Rose.
No. 18 is definitely a seedling by Dr. Cartier (1821)
p. 523, no. 23 Bengale soufre: "Double, pale yellow, form and size of the Tea Rose" (Hume's Blush). This is the rose 'Rosa Indica Sulphurea' = 'Bengale Jaune Souffre' of Redouté. Is it identical to 'Rosa indica Sulphurea' of Andrews, i.e. Knight's seedling, which has so much in common with Hume's Blush? The descripton by Pirolle in the 3rd Edition of "Les Roses" (1835) seems so.
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#4 of 4 posted
28 NOV 16 by
CybeRose
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However, Vibert went on to write (pp. 37-38):
Consolez-vous du moins, et modérez vos regrets, le bengale en question est mort, il est vrai; mais il n'était pas jaune: c'était une de ces fleurs simples ou semi doubles, d'un blanc terne, telles qu'on en voit assez souvent dans les pimprenelles de semence. Toutefois, M. Cartier, que nous comptons au nombre de nos meilleurs comme de nos plus anciens amateurs, est étranger à cette méprise, qu'il faut attribuer à l'imagination un peu vive du rédacteur.
Console yourself at least, and moderate your regrets, the Bengal in question is dead, it is true; But it was not yellow: it was one of those simple or semi-double flowers, of a dull white color, such as are often seen in seed pimprenelles. However, M. Cartier, whom we count among our best as well as our oldest amateurs, is a stranger to this mistake, which must be attributed to the lively imagination of the editor.
On further consideration, I do not trust people who speak (or write) for others. On the other side of the English Channel, Lindley claimed that no botanist had seen the hips of R. banksiae. He was apparently unaware that Boursault had already raised numerous hybrids from the seeds of R. banksiae, and had introduced the Rosea Banksiae.
I would be very interested to learn what Cartier had to say about the matter, but I have been unable to find any first hand account.
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