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'Rosa damascena bifera' rose Reviews & Comments
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Audibert
You wrote :
The Audibert catalogue differentiates between 'Tous les mois' and 'Quatre Saisons'
thats right !
but Audibert also wrote in this catalogue that 'York & Lancaster' is a Bifera ! i.e. flowering twice a year. This is obviously not true, so I am not very confident in Audibert ...
Cordialement,
Daniel
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I wonder though why 'Autumn Damask', when as far as I've observed, it blooms mainly in spring. - Karl. in the Photo comments Quatre Saisons.
The rose in question might be the spring or once-flowering 'Trigintipetala'.
I understand it looks a bit the same as the repeat-flowering 'Quatre Saisons'.
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I don't understand the Note on the main page which says: "Dickerson says it's probably extinct."
This is a common foundling in old properties in Australia and it seems to be a long lived rose. One of my bushes came from a Bridgetown, WA garden where it had been moved from the older property and replanted in the newer garden in 1937. I can't see that 'Quatre Saisons' was ever in danger of becoming extinct.
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I think Dickerson's opinion cited here relates to a different rose, the early Damask Perpetual known variously as the red 'Monthly Rose' or 'old Red Monthly' also sometimes as 'Tous les Mois' etc.
Dickerson refers to the pink rose we know by the name of 'Quatre Saisons' as 'Bifera'. He doesn't suggest that 'Bifera' is extinct and that note doesn't belong on this listing. (The reference from p 23 of 1st Edition of The Old Rose Advisor ("'Tous-les-Mois' ('Year-Round Rose', 'Quatre Saisons' ['Tous-les-Mois']. Damask Perpetual. La Quintinye, ca. 1680. Descriptive information from primary sources. Probably extinct." ) doesn't belong with this listing either.
In The Old Rose Informant, Dickerson tackles the Damask Perpetuals in Chapter 18 and writes of the difficulties of getting to grips with what's what in the early written records. He writes, "...the interchangeability of names (Monthly Rose, Tous les Mois, Omnium Calendarum, Quatre Saisons, Bifera, etc., in their various translations and forms in English, French, Dutch, Latin, and German), any or all of which may be applied to any or all of them at any time in the early period, masks the varieties and literally confuses the development of the various lines."
Reflecting this confusion, a number of different Damask Perpetual varieties are erroneously listed here as synonyms.
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Dickerson also suggests that "Rose de Rescht" might be the red 'Tous les Mois'.
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Thank you Billy.
That has shown me some light through the tunnel.
Then there is the date. I think 1806 to 1820 should be looked at.
I do see the 1690 reference to R. menstralis mentioning literature dated 1633, but think that may be another rose as well.
Patricia
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Do you have TORI? That chapter is a very interesting but frustrating read - it's a frustrating subject. When the same names are used for different roses; when the same names are used for both varieties and classes - and when writers say things like "...it is so well known, and all the parts thereof, so that it needeth no further description.", it's a very difficult jigsaw puzzle.
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Reply #5 of 6 posted 20 JUL 11 by  jedmar
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We probably have here 2 types of Autumn Damask:
- bifera reblooms once in autumn
- menstrualis reblooms repeatedly
I agree that the synonyms are confusing, this is usually due to later authors, who put all in one bag. We try to add more of the older references, then unravel gradually. Anyone like to take this challenge on?
The 1633 reference is the oldest Western European reference to a reblooming damask, which was named Rosa Italica perpetua, sive (i.e., or) omnium mensium by Ferrari. Unfortunately, I do not have the original text.
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I'll be searching for any information but think the lion's share of this work must fall to those researchers with knowledge of European and Middle Eastern languages.
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Initial post 10 MAR 09 by Chris
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are autumn damask and quatre saisons the same rose? chris in ct.
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Reply #1 of 1 posted 10 MAR 09 by jedmar
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Yes, although sometimes nurseries use 'Quatre Saisons' for Damask in general (incl. Summer Damask).
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