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'Climbing Devoniensis' rose Reviews & Comments
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Per the paper linked below (in Table 4, beginning on the paper's page 28), this rose is triploid. I am cross-posting this comment on all others mentioned which do not already have their ploidies mentioned in their descriptions.
http://repository.tamu.edu/bitstream/handle/1969.1/ETD-TAMU-2009-12-7450/SOULES-THESIS.pdf?sequence=2
:-)
~Christopher
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#2 of 3 posted
25 JUN 13 by
 jedmar
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If 'Cl. Devoniensis' is really triploid, then it cannot be a sport of 'Devoniensis' which is diploid. Very often 'Cl. Souvenir de Malmaison' is sold as 'Cl. Devoniensis'. I assume that the incorrect rose was tested in the study.
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#3 of 3 posted
24 JUL 14 by
AquaEyes
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Sorry for the VERY late reply (I just stumbled upon this again today). I see your point, and re-read the paper. Their 'Climbing Devoniensis' came from Antique Rose Emporium'. Their description for the rose is as follows:
"Wesley and Blanche Carroll of Slidell, LA shared this rose with us which we initially marketed as "Celie’s Slidell Pink Tea." After years of observing this rose and consulting with other experts in the industry, we feel this rose is ‘Climbing Devoniensis.’ You can’t help but fall under the spell of this moderate climber. The pink buds open to double blooms of creamy white with a tinge of apricot and contain a rich Tea scent. Our research indicates that this rose was also known as "The Magnolia Rose" probably because of its fruity fragrance. This climber, once established will bloom spring and fall."
This indicates that their plant originated as a foundling, so it is possible that it was wrongly identified.
:-)
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Initial post
30 JAN 11 by
Ian VG
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I am curious about the accuracy of the estimated hardiness of this rose (zone 6b-11). There seems to be a wide variation from many sources in the hardiness factor of this rose, as well as other teas (like Lady Hillingdon). Is this particular estimate based on people's actual experience down to zone 6b? And are we talking about just "survival", rather than "doing well" (I doubt there would be "thriving" in zone 6b).
Actually, from my small experioence with teas (in zone 7b), I've come to the conclusion that it is the heat factor during the summer, as opposed to the winter cold that determines whether a particular tea rose will give a good floral display, or not! What do others think?
Ian
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Ian ...
You can check the GARDENS tab on the rose page and see the list of gardens where a rose is grown. I did a quick check on 'Devoniensis, Cl' and found one garden listed as growing it in zone 5b and another growing it in zone 6. I agree that teas, which are not known to have heavy petal substance would probably not stand up to a very hot summer climate.
Smiles,
Lyn
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'Devoniensis' and 'Clg Devoniensis' are quite early Teas, but among the more commonly found venerable survivors having survived the extremes of more than a century in some cases. This suggests that, once established, 'Devoniensis' is one of the least tender of the Teas, with an uncommon resilience to both heat and chill.
It is one of the best performers in my warm to hot climate garden (approx Zone 11), withstanding the extremes of heat and dryness over a long hot, dry season. In a tended garden it is very recurrent. As an untended old plant in a cemetery or deserted garden it reblooms after rain.
We do not experience sub zero temperatures here and I can't give any personal opinion about cold hardiness.
It takes some years to mature though and would disappoint someone who needed a quicker effect & performance. Of all the Teas I've grown, the shrub form has been the slowest to establish. In its early years it was slow, small, awkward in habit and not what you'd call 'garden-worthy'. As a mature plant it is shapely, healthy & generous.
The climbing form is very robust.
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Billy.......
Thank you ever so much for this information. I had given up on the idea of having any teas in this garden because my garden is a garden of extreme heat during the summer. Our low temps are not below zero degrees, but are in the low teens. Like Ian, I was more concerned about the high temps.
Smiles,
Lyn
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You're welcome Lyn.
Some of the Teas definitely go from bud to dried arrangement in hours at the height of summer (but you forgive them because they are sublimely beautiful in the winter) & some produce blooms the size of miniatures when it gets too hot but then there are the ones that handle just about anything the summer throws at them.
'General Gallieni' is a star and offspring 'Rosette Delizy' is good in the summer too.
'Etoile de Lyon' is another (bad habits in other seasons but wonderful in the heat) - and the double Tea rose that's often sold under the name "Princesse de Sagan" is bomb-proof and generous.
What you say about petal substance fits. Each of these - and 'Devoniensis' - tend to have firmer petals than the ones with more fleeting blooms.
You do have to be prepared to wait some years to begin to see what's so great about Teas - definitely a longer childhood than many roses. And they're first & foremost decorative shrubs rather than florists' roses (though they make wonderful bouquets) or exhibition roses.
Sunburnt stems can be a problem in hot climates - If the stems get burnt it really sets them back and they often don't recover. Important to maintain good leaf coverage. Black spot doesn't usually affect Teas so defoliation from disease isn't usually an issue. Heavy pruning is the most serious hazard.
I prefer to give them an occasional gentle shaping when removing the spent blooms rather than a more severe winter prune.
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Thank you, again, Billy.
Gardening in my climate takes patience, so waiting for a plant to mature is just part of the process.
In your opinion, which of the teas you have mentioned in this post has the most dense foliage. Sunburned canes is an issue in this garden.
Smiles,
Lyn
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None are sparsely foliated but In my garden 'Rosette Delizy' would be the densest of these.
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Thank you.
Smiles,
Lyn
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Can I join in Lyn and Billy and say that here in my sunburnt garden. General Gallieni, Homere and Mrs BR Cant have lovely skirts to protect their tender parts. Mrs BR Cant does have lots of selfseeding Gaura around it too. Homere is lucky if it gets any extra water over summer where it was planted years ago.
Billy the Devoniensis at Carlsruhe Cemetery has good coverage as does Lorraine Lee in Ebenezer C - both old bushes which have stood all that Mother Nature has heaped on them.
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Do those beautiful cemetery roses (and the ones in your garden) have to cope with quite a bit of frost in the winter Pat?
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I wouldn't say they had heaps of frost but they certainly get a taste of frost each year.
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Billy......
Does your question mean that you get hard frosts in your garden ? For the first time since I have planted my roses in this garden, I am experiencing hard frosts. My neighbor above me, removed all of the trees around his house due to fire protection. Now the cold air is flowing down the slope to my garden. We also get light snow a few times a year. But I didn't think the snow would be much of a problem because I had read that the canes of teas were somewhat flexible. I usually have to snow tip some roses to avoid breakage, but just go out and shake the snow off of the most of the others. It's the weight of the snow that causes the breakage.
Smiles,
Lyn
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Winters are very mild here in Perth Lyn - I can't remember the last time we had a frost here.
Trees give protection in so many ways don't they? Sorry to hear about your bank of frost protection being taken out - I don't envy you having to get your more cold tender roses through hard frosts.
I'll add a couple of piccies to this post - these are the old Tea roses Pat mentioned - growing in cemeteries in South Australia.
Devoniensis and Lorraine Lee
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Pretty tough violets too under some of the roses
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Billy..........
I live in the mountains of northern California and this is a wildfire area. Lightening starts fires every year, mostly in the back country, but it is important to do fire landscaping, because lightening doesn't always follow the rules. The owner removing his dense grove of trees for fire protection actually protects my home, too. (I've been evacuated twice since I moved here).
I now have frost, but I don't know what the change in my microclimate will be this summer, so I am going to wait until I see what happens before I plant anything else. It will be interesting to see what happens to the roses I have already planted.
Ozoldroser... I have so many violets, they are almost invasive. It's going to feel like a whole new garden because everything seems to have changed. I can really see how the cold air is moving down the slope above me.
Thank you both for sharing what you know about teas !
Smiles,
Lyn
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Lyn,
I thought I might throw my 2 cents worth in as a newb to Teas in a cooler Australian climate.
I'm in Northern Tasmania about 50km north of Cradle Mountain (and only about 2000km north of Antarctica ;-) ). The Teas I have (O=own root, G= grafted) are 'Monsieur Tillier' (O), 'Marie Van Houtte' (G), 'Safrano' (G), 'Lorraine Lee' - Bush form (G), 'St Francis Xavier' (G), 'Francis Dubreuil' - not (G), an unknown climbing one I bought as an own-root tube plant (what I think you guys call bands), 'Comtesse de Labarthe' (O) which I think may be 'MME Joseph Schwartz' because I've never seen a fully pink flower on it... always white or with a slight pink flush around the edges of the petals, the real 'Comtesse de Labarthe' (O), from a friend in NSW, 'Etoile de Lyon' (I think... still trying to ID this one correctly)(G), "Adam" (G), 'Souvenir de MME Leonie Viennot' (O), 'MME Antoine Mari' own-root from cuttings sent by Margaret, and I've just bought 'Climbing Devoniensis' (G), and 'MME Lambard' (G). Patricia has also sent over cuttings of 'Mrs Val Nash' that I am hoping to get going too. 'Lady Huntingfield' behaves much like a Tea here so I include it here as one.
Here we experience winter lows around -4°C to -7°C and things freeze pretty much solid. The maximum daylight hours we get during winter is only about 6-8 hours and during the winter most the Teas will be leafless and dormant, however, some continue to grow and flower. 'Comtesse de Labarthe'/'MME Joseph Schwartz' still has leaves and is flowering sporadically for me now, about a third of the way through winter. It's an own root plant of about 3 yrs old and my oldest Tea. 'Monsieur Tillier' is fully leafed out but not flowering. New leaves are forming on it now that are a rich blood-red. This is an own-root plant about 2 years old. 'Marie Van Houtte' is still mostly leafed out but these are old leaves that it refuses to shed. I'm guessing they too will fall before the end of winter. The rest are pretty much asleep. We experience one or two episodes of snow each year but we freeze solid almost every night during winter.
In my climate they take a really long time to get established and going but the cold doesn't seem to worry them too much. They go to sleep just like the other roses and they wake up again to grow in spring... I don't think it's the cold that gets them here. I think it's the length of our summer. Summer temperatures can reach mainland highs up around the high 30's and low 40's (°C) but this very rarely lasts for more than a few days and the warm weather seems to take forever to arrive and leave all too soon. By April we are all wearing jumpers again and trees are turning their leaves autmun colours. I think this sets my Teas back considerably because their active growing season is so short. The days during summer are very long. Sun-up is around 5am and there is still enough light at 9:30pm to cast a shadow outdoors. Needless to say we get a lot of work done in Summer and the kids at the school I teach at are always tired (and cranky) because they don't get to bed early enough and are woken by blazing sun in the wee hours of the morning. The Teas don't go to sleep during summer here because it never gets that hot. Tea-like roses, like 'Fortune's Double Yellow', the Noisettes and Chinas behave in a similar fashion here and grow at a snail's pace.
So far, at 3yrs old, none of them seem overly densely foliaged. 'Safrano' is the worst offender in this regard followed closely by 'Lorraine Lee'. Reading Billy's and Patricia's accounts of their 'Devoniensis' plants (bush form) I'm hoping that this is a settling in period and over the next few years they will begin to fill out more and end up looking like the one in Billy's photo, shown above, of 'Lorraine Lee'. I am inspred by the photo of 'Monsieur Tiilier' on page 4 of the Tea book growing in Port Arthur, Tasmania, where it gets much colder for much longer than it is here. If it can grow there it can grow anywhere!!! Robert Rippetoe has often mentioned to me that he has trouble growing Teas in the desert where he is because, he believes, the air is too dry. So it looks like a little humidity is essential for their success too. In your climate, I'd be giving them a go for sure.
Cheers,
Simon
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Simon..........
What a wonderful post ! Thank you for sharing so much information about your climate and growing conditions. One of the reasons I love growing roses is that they are so stubborn and are determined to grow in spite of all obstacles.
I find every year that roses continue to surprise me because they keep breaking all of the rules, or I start breaking the rules and the rose performs better than it ever has in the past.
I tend to agree that it is not the cold that affects tea roses as much as what happens during the growing season. My winter night temps hover around –6°C, but often drop to –9.4°C. The lowest was probably -11°C. Since our day temps are always above 0°C, nothing freezes and I really have very little die back in this garden.
In the summer, the temps hover between 35°C and 40°C for weeks at a time. It can be 37°C by 10am and in July and August not cool down until after 9pm. Since I have no shade in this garden, that’s plenty of time for the blooms to fry to a crisp. There are a few days when the temps are around 44°C, but that kind of heat only lasts for a few days at a time.
I know of others who have the same kind of summer temps as I do who grow tea roses quite successfully, but they are located at a lower latitude and a lower elevation. I tend to believe that the higher altitude seems to intensify the quality of the light the roses receive and I think that is the major variable that I need to take into consideration.
Also, their first flush arrives about a month before mine, but I delay my first flush for a month longer by disbudding the roses until near the end of June to keep rose curculios from breeding in the garden, so there is no doubt that the first bloom would be when the temps are at least 35°C.
I have a couple of roses that I am currently growing in this garden that look beautiful for only a couple of hours and then are fried and look pure ugly.
This year, I am not planting new roses, but I still haven’t completely given up on the idea of adding a tea to this garden. Thank you for letting me know which cultivars are working for you.
Smiles,
Lyn
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"I find every year that roses continue to surprise me because they keep breaking all of the rules, or I start breaking the rules and the rose performs better than it ever has in the past."
I really like that Lyn - they ARE the best teachers and there's always more & more to learn from them.
When it comes to finding the especially tough ones, I don't think you can go past nature's long term Earthkind-style experiment - the handful of roses that survive against all sorts of odds in different places around the world.
Some that come to mind that have been found (as healthy, old neglected plants) in the USA, Europe, New Zealand, Australia and probably many more places are 'Devoniensis', 'Safrano' & 'Isabella Sprunt', 'Comtesse de Labarthe'/'Duchesse de Brabant', 'Mme Lambard'/ (almost certainly one of the roses that goes by the name "Georgetown Tea"), 'Homere', 'Souvenir de Pierre Notting', 'Maman Cochet' and 'White Maman Cochet', 'Etoile de Lyon', 'Anna Olivier'/'Lady Roberts', [probably] 'August Comte' (seen under a lot of other names including one of the roses sold as 'Niles Cochet'), "Angels Camp Tea"/ "Octavus Weld", 'Laurette'/"Rubens", 'E. Veyrat Hermanos', 'W.R. Smith' etc
It's interesting that some of these are quite delicate, sickly children and awkward adolescents, and take longer to get established, 'choose life' etc but if they get through their early years in one piece they go on to become some of the toughest.
Many of them have some awful habits at times - so they're not perfect roses by any means - but the roses that are closest to our hearts are rarely the most perfect.
I'm interested to know which roses are best suited to your climate, altitude, conditions Lyn. Are there roses that revel in the extremes?
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Lyn why don't you let your roses bloom early and then all through the toughest months take away any buds that want to form - in this way you will get more stems and leaf cover and I think that is one of the secrets. If they have a skirt around their legs they get less sunburn on stems and it really protects the plant. Most of the found teas that come to mind have weeds around them or they have developed a skirt. It is when we want to clean them up that we start to get problems. These are just thoughts that I have observed and might help.
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Pat.......
I can answer your question much easier than I can answer Billy's question. (I had to think about her question over night.) You are absolutely correct about the benefits of disbudding... one of my surprises. Last year, I was so disgusted with the damage of the roses in my garden during the first flush caused by the rose curculios that I disbudded the whole garden when I saw the first one and discovered that the roses do put on more foliage and stronger stems when they are disbudded. Rose curculios feed and lay eggs in the buds of roses. I decided to interrupt the breeding cycle and not allow them to breed in my garden. Then I had the opportunity to learn about the benefits of disbudding. (You can read about rose curculios in the HMF GLOSSARY). I disbudded the roses every night throughout the curculio season and within three days, they were gone from the garden because there was no food source or a place to lay their eggs. Yes, they did migrate back to the garden this year, but I did get part of a first flush before they showed up and I had to disbud again. The only other way to get rid of them is to use toxic poisons, which I am uncomfortable using in the garden.
Disbudding solved the curculio problem and it gave me an opportunity to learn more about roses. The roses pushed more foliage, stronger stems and MORE buds faster than they ever had before. Also, it is certainly a lot easier to disbud a rose than to hand pick bugs !
Billy...... I can't tell you which roses will do well in this climate, yet. My taste in roses has changed as I have learned about the ogrs and I do want to grow roses that I never considered growing ten years ago. However, many of the "found" roses you saw during your visit to California were found growing in towns established in the "other" mother lode of the gold rush period. The climate and elevation is similar to mine, but the second mother lode, my area of California, is located further north and on the other side of the valley. I'll leave it to others who have more experience with these roses to tell you which ones can thrive in these conditons. I can tell you that Weaverville was established during the same time period by the pioneers to came to California for gold.
The other consideration is that my current garden is a young garden in terms of roses. Also, in my opinion, I am young at growing roses in a more challenging climate. My rose life started in a very rose friendly climate and I've had a lot to learn. By observing the roses I am growing and changing my methods of growing roses, I am becoming more confident of my ability to expand my rose horizons and grow different classes of roses. I do know that once bloomers, climbing roses and large plants are "out", because of the bugs, but I am looking at roses with new eyes.
Harry Wheatcroft called what we commonly call "rose bushes", "rose trees". I think it is a very appropriate way of looking at rose plants. They do need time to mature before they come into their own.
And, NOW, I have found a deer repellent that seems to be working that is weather proof and does not have to be applied to the plants. Which means I can plant roses in the one area of the garden that has good soil and afternoon shade. That opens up the possibility of growing roses in a site where they won't be fried so quickly by the summer temps !
Thank you ever so much for your encouragement.
Smiles,
Lyn
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I should add, my Devoniensis and Cecile Brunner climbers both started opening their blooms today, and it's not even April yet!
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"Old" is relative with redwoods. The tree the roses are climbing is 100 years old, or so. Plenty big still for the roses to scramble up the south side. Devoniensis is blooming about 30 feet or more up in its limbs. Spectacular this year with all the rain!
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It must be a challenge to garden under redwoods. They have the greediest roots!
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I only have a few roses planted along the edges of the trees. Fortunately the redwoods are on the north side of the property, so they don't shade the roses. I haven't watered Cl. Cecile Brunner since she was three or so, and Cl. Devoniensis gets a soaking every week or so in the summer. Strangely enough I've had more trouble growing rhododendrons under my redwoods that I've had growing roses!
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I guess rhodies have a large, fibrous root system, not unlike all those surface roots on redwoods, so perhaps it isn't surprising they struggle a bit. I find redwoods very good at mining nitrogen and just about any micronutrient. Anyway, glad to know the roses do well despite the challenges.
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I planted a Cl. Devoniensis and a Cl. Cecile Brunner at the same time, both near an old redwood tree. Both have been climbing for eight years, but the Devoniensis has out-climbed Cecile by at least ten feet. And that with only one big basal cane!
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