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'Erinnerung an Brod' rose Reviews & Comments
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Dr. Neubert's Deutsches Garten-Magazin, Volume 37: 5-8 (1884)
Kletterrosen für den Norden
Rudolph Geschwind
pp. 6-7
1) Erinnerung an Brod, eine Hybride, die schon als Strauch gezogen die Neigung zum Hängen zeigt, hochstämmig veredelt, in gutem Boden aber zwei Meter lange Jahrestriebe macht, die im Zustande der Blüte bis zur Erde herabhängen. Die Blüte ist nahezu purpurn oder veilchenblau gefärbt und in dieser Farbe die einzige Rose, die sich einem wirklichen Blau in etwas nähert*). Von ferne gesehen erscheinen einzelne besonders dunkel gefärbte Blüten fast schwarz. Die einzelne grosse Blume ist dabei regelmässig kompakt gebaut und dicht gefüllt (ohne Staubgefrisse). Diese Rose, welche bei Herrn Franz Deegen junior in Köstritz Probe blüht, ist wegen ihrer düsteren Farbe die allerbeste und effektreichste Trauerrose für Gräber, um so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet.
*) Sie hätte ebensoviel Recht, eine blaue genannt zu werden, wie die Remontantrose Alsace-Loraine als schwarz bezeichnet wird, und ist weit eher eine Violacea als die Moosrose dieses Namens.
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#1 of 12 posted
24 JAN 18 by
 Jay-Jay
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Thank you for this reference!
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#2 of 12 posted
26 JAN 18 by
CybeRose
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Jay-Jay,
I think this note, or one like it, contributed to the old story that 'Erinnerung an Brod' was bred from 'Veilchenblau'. In fact, Geschwind was merely indicating that this rose was violet-blue - the color of March violets.
Karl
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#3 of 12 posted
26 JAN 18 by
Jay-Jay
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I understood that, but could imagine, that it's genes were/could be used to get a blue rose.
The whole quote caught me,
But what really struck me was this: "....um so mehr da sie dem strengsten Winter Trotz bietet."
It really is a rose for the Northern Regions.
I would never have thought of the idea to use it as a mourning rose on a grave.
For me this rose is every Spring a real feast!
Never thought of using it as a solitaire too, for it has lanky canes, that need support... at least at my place.
And trained as a climber, one looks into the hart of every flower. But because it has flowers at lower levels too, one can take a sniff, every time one passes.
When it flowers, I go out, just before going to sleep, or even in my pajamas to to get a high/flush of its fragrance.
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#4 of 12 posted
26 JAN 18 by
Jay-Jay
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PS: As You might have noticed in the past, this quirky rose is one of my favorites. And whenever I can, I promote it, show it to others. And often, they fall in love too.
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Partly due to Jay-Jay's enthusing about this rose I ordered a very expensive one, (because I had to transfer money), from a European nursery. It will flower for the first time this year, I'm very excited. My theory is that the blue colour in roses originates from 'Tuscany'.
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#6 of 12 posted
27 JAN 18 by
CybeRose
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I was looking for more info on 'Tuscany' when I learned that "Tuscan Red" is a color. According to Wikipedia:
"The first recorded use of Tuscan red as a color name in English was in the early 1800s (exact date uncertain)."
Coincidentally, the old Velvet Rose, R. Holosericea, seems to have picked up the name 'Tuscany' at about the same time. Could it be that the rose was renamed for its color, rather than for any supposed association with Tuscany?
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There is a vague area between 'Tuscany Superb' and dark hybrid perpetuals like 'Génie de Châteaubriand', I'm sure the two must be connected.
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#8 of 12 posted
28 JAN 18 by
CybeRose
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I am not arguing. I am trying to get it clear in my mind whether 'Tuscany' was the same as the old Velvet/Holosericea, or a new variety. Neill (1823) was not entirely clear on the point.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Roses/Ehret/BrownRoses1823.html
Victoria, dark and double, superior to the Tuscany.
Parson, do. do. equal to the Tuscany.
Mount Etna, dark and double.
Mount Vesuvius, do. do.
Vagrant, do. do.
The above five raised from the double Velvet, R. Gallica.
He seems to have been saying that 'Tuscany' was not the same as the double Velvet. However, it might have been a seedling of the Velvet, like Brown's roses listed above.
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Which ever is the oldest cultivar of these dark purple varieties could be the root of blueness in roses, maybe even a variety like 'Violacea', is there a completely single dark gallica or centifolia type?
At the other end of the time line could they have given their genes to hybrids like the "mauve ramblers" or 'Stirling Silver'?
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#10 of 12 posted
29 JAN 18 by
CybeRose
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Andrew,
There are different types of "blue" in roses.
1) Vacuolar anthocyanic inclusions (AVIs) can be found in L’Evêque (1815), Bleu Magenta (1933) and 'Rhapsody in Blue' (2000), among others..
2) Rosacyanins are complex compounds based on an anthocyanin. 'Sterling Silver', 'Mme Violet' and 'Blue Moon' are examples. 'Morning Mist', another rose from Fisher, apparently shared these rosacyanins, which presumably come from 'Grey Pearl'.
3) Osawa: Copigmentation of Anthocyanins (1982)
Harborne (1961) attributed the color of blue roses to copigmentation of cyanin with gallotannin or leucocyanidin. K. Toki, N. Saito, M. Yokoi, and Y. Osawa (unpublished results) found that there is no difference in the basic flavonoid pattern between red and blue roses, but the concentration ratio of flavonols to cyanin varies considerably between the two types of roses: it is 30 to 50 in blue roses and only 1 to 3 in red roses. Suspecting copigmentation, they prepared mixed solutions containing 5 x 10-4 M cyanin and varying concentrations of quercitrin, a major flavonol of blue roses.
http://bulbnrose.x10.mx/Heredity/King/RosePigments/RosePigments.html
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CybeRose, I have been mulling over your reply, it's interesting thank you. I don't know how relevant this is but very few types of flower have a full range of colours covering the entire spectrum. One genus that comes to mind is Primula, in particular vulgaris, the common primrose and polyanthus the florist's primrose. In the wild vulgaris is pale yellow with occasional rare white of pale pink variants. Polyanthus are a mix of Primula vulgaris, veris and elatior the primrose, cowslip and oxlip. I have only once seen a red variant of P. veris in the wild. But these have been bred to have every single colour from the spectrum including pale blue, dark blue, rich purple, brown and green, any shade imaginable, yet the wild plants show very little variation.
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#12 of 12 posted
16 MAR 18 by
CybeRose
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Andrew,
Delphiniums have come pretty close to a full spectrum, but the genus does have a few yellows and reds to get the party started. Irises haven't yet managed a true red, but there are enough brown-reds and lilac reds to compensate. Greens have been raised, but have not become fashionable.
Karl
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In the description is stated that: " Rosa rubifolia R. Brown ex Ait. fil. synonym × Génie de Châteaubriand (damask, Oudin 1849) " is the parentage.
And there is a footnote that says: "Additional data received from Erich Unmuth of Venna Austria. from the Rosenlexikon compiled by Augst Jäger 1936. This states that the parentage is R. setigera x Genie de Chateaubriand"
Rosa rubifolia R. Brown ex Ait. fil. synonym = R. setigera tomentosa and that is another rose than Rosa setigera. And both have pages at HMF of their own.
My question is: Is Erinnerung an Brod a hybrid of R. setigera or of R. setigera tomentosa?
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#1 of 2 posted
5 SEP 16 by
CybeRose
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Jay-Jay,
I suspect that Geschwind used a Hybrid Setigera rather than the species.
In his book, Die hybridation und sämlingszucht der rosen pp. 122-124 (1864) he has an article on the Prairie Rose. He noted that only the 'Perpetual Pink' (which aged to purple) was suitable as a mourning rose.
He also recommended Errinerung an Brod as a mourning rose, which is at least suggestive.
Karl
https://books.google.com/books?id=2Mo1AAAAMAAJ&dq=%22Die%20Hybridation%20und%20S%C3%A4mlingszucht%20der%20Rosen%22&pg=PA123#v=onepage&q=rubifolia&f=false
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#2 of 2 posted
5 SEP 16 by
Jay-Jay
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Thank You Karl for Your reply
I own that book in German... in the old-fashioned German characters (Becker Fraktur... see: http://www.fontpalace.com/font-details/Becker+Fraktur-Regular/). I'll dive into it!
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This year, the flowers are unusually red and show a lot of proliferation!
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This is fascinating. I saw Erinnerung an Brod some days ago at the Rosarium in Dortmund, and *each and every bloom* had proliferated. Last year it was perfectly normal. I took lots of pictures:
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#2 of 10 posted
31 MAY 16 by
Jay-Jay
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Might it be due to the strange and warm winter... with a short colder period in-between?
It looks as if the forming of flower-buds was interrupted and then started again from the beginning.
Last year the flowers were good.
When potato-plants freeze and have to start over again, there is a similar phenomena: The new grown potatoes build new potatoes... those are called onderzeeërs (submarines)
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That is an interesting theory indeed! Yes, there was a late frost after a mild winter, but it only just touched zero degrees.
I like the "submarine" name! Is there anything similar for the rose's proliferation, the bloom inside a bloom?
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#4 of 10 posted
1 JUN 16 by
Jay-Jay
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There is a proliferation disease in Apple-trees caused by a mycoplasma. It is called (translated) Witches'-broom disease.
And a kind of grass seems to proliferate: Poa bulbosa or Bulbous Meadow-grass (Bulbous bluegrass) (in German: Knolliges Rispengras)
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#5 of 10 posted
4 JUN 16 by
Jay-Jay
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A while later (formed and) opening flowers don't show proliferation at all!!!
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If we want to further investigate this phenomenon, I will have to visit Westfalenpark again soon, to see how Erinnerung an Brod is doing now. This is really intriguing......
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#7 of 10 posted
6 JUN 16 by
Jay-Jay
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Would be kind of You!
Some other Geschwind-roses showed proliferation too this year.... Lineage?
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I know this is probably nothing to do with proliferation but primrose (Primula vulgaris) cultivars that produce a flower within a flower are sometimes called Hose-in-Hose and some Asteraceae species that have a central flower with smaller flowers around their perimeters (Bellis and Calendula) are know as Hen and Chickens or Prolifera.
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It is of interest to go into the Q and A Forum and search for Proliferation.
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#10 of 10 posted
10 JUL 16 by
Jay-Jay
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I'll try the suggestion of feeding less Nitrogen to Erinnerung an Brod. Maybe it needs somewhat barren soil.
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This rose performs excellent in a dry heatwave (30-40°C) with lots of blazing sunlight and wind.
Petals of opening roses don't dry, don't burn, bleach out or get scorched black. It just blooms!
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Thanks Jay-Jay for your observation. We've added Heat-tolerant to this rose.
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