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I think that this is the only pictures who shows 'Cramoisi Supérieur' as it should be! The semi-double are likely to be 'Sleiter's Crimson China' or something similar - Peter Beales also have a semi-double crimson China as C.S. in his catalogue. But all the original description of this rose describes a "full, double, velvety crimson" flower (like the climbing version of the same).
Then, I see here pictures of Roses I suspect to be in fact 'Louis Philippe' (all the double blooms with distinct pale centers).
Does anyone have a C.S. with the same flowers as in Cliff's picture?
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#1 of 8 posted
28 OCT 08 by
 Cliff
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That's very interesting Maurizio, as I was just about to come to the conclusion that mine was not Cramoisi Supérieur. I think I'll hold off on that decision for the time being!
Cliff
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Hi Cliff,
this is only my humble opinion!, but I think you'd have the right one.
I have two "Cramoisi Supérieur" -bush- and the climbing form. The first bush is from Beales, and it's a semi-double, similar to paintings of Sleiter's C.C., the second one is from Pépinière Filippi, in France... but I've not seen a bloom yet, it's just a little band still. Hope it will look like your!
Your picture shows flowers identical (not similar...!) to the climbing form I have, which is widely grown here in the garden at Ninfa, near Rome.
Where your plant came from?
Ciao
Maurizio
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#3 of 8 posted
28 OCT 08 by
Cliff
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Mine came from Vintage Gardens, and they're among the best in terms of reliability.
Cliff
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Thank you Cliff, I see in References that Vintage version of C.S. seems to be a reversion sport of the climber. Sound interesting...
Maurizio
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#4 of 8 posted
28 OCT 08 by
jedmar
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What is a bit confusing is the picture of L'Eblouissante in Nietner's "Die Rose" (1880). This shows a rose similar to the semi-double 'Cramoisi superieur'. A solution may be that L'Eblouissante = La Gouffre and Cramoisi superieur = Agrippina are two distinct roses (as Nietner lists them) and have only been regarded as synonyms due to Simon/Cochet.
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#5 of 8 posted
28 OCT 08 by
Cliff
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That would make sense.
Cliff
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Note from "The Rose Amateur's Guide" by Thomas Rivers 1837, page 70
"... Cramoisie Eblouissante, S., AND Cramoisie Supérieur, S., the last the finest and most double, are BOTH brilliant and excellent varieties of Rosa semperflorens..."
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#8 of 8 posted
30 OCT 08 by
jedmar
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Now to prove that 'Cramoisie eblouissante' from the Netherlands is the same as Vibert or Laffay's 'l'Eblouissante'.
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