"Dr. Grill" rose reviews and comments

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"Dr. Grill" rose Reviews & Comments

Discussion id : 125-359 most recent 12 MAY 21 HIDE POSTS

Initial post 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

Nadene

Hi,
In the Rex Hazlewood garden, Old Parliament House Garden in Canberra, is a rose that has been labelled as Dr. Grill. Site No. SG65 P03.

Original feedback suggested the rose could be W.R. Smith. I have been reading the members comments in both W.R. Smith and Comtesse Riza du Parc. There also appears to be a ring in amongst the group. Also this group of roses is a lot larger and stronger in growth than the Dr. Grill in another of the rose gardens, MacArthur. Unfortunately I do not have photos of MacArthur available at the moment to post. Below are photos from Rex Hazlewood garden. I welcome any thoughts as I'm curious as to what it could be.
Also does anyone have knowledge of nurseries along the east coast of Australia selling Dr. Grill around the year 2000 to 2004 and what their rose was likely to be.

Reply #1 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

I grow both the "Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle Nursery)" and the 'Dr. Grill' that has been in general circulation in Australia for a while (and that is believed to be 'W.R. Smith'). All I can say is that I believe them to be two different roses, and that I believe the general 'Dr. Grill' in commerce is in fact 'W.R.Smith' because it matches the many early photographs that we have of it, as well as displaying many characteristics of 'Maman Cochet' from which it was bred. Whether the "Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle Nursery)" is the real 'Dr. Grill' remains to be seen but I believe it very well could be and that there is a case to be made for it.

There are a couple of gross differences between the two roses in my experience. Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle) sets hips fairly readily whereas Dr. Grill/W.R. Smith has never set a hip either naturally or through artificial pollination for me. I believe it's infertile. Also, Dr. Grill/W.R.Smith balls very badly whereas Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle) resists balling exceptionally well. In fact we've just had nearly a week of continous rain here in Sydney and my Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle) flowers are opening up beautifully. There aren't any flowers on my Dr.Grill/W.R. Smith at the moment but for comparison all my 'White Maman Cochet' flowers have been ruined by the rain, and I find that the Cochets and Dr.Grill/W.R.Smith ball in similar fashion.

I see from your photos that some flowers in the Rex Hazlewood garden have balled. I notice too that some are very pink, which is something I've never seen on my Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle). That photochromic pink effect is something shared with the Cochets and is particularly apparent on the White Cochet.

My feeling is that somewhere along the line someone has decided that a Dr. Grill circulating in Australia years ago was W.R.Smith, and then somehow all Dr. Grills have then been determined to be W.R.Smith including others such the Dr. Grill from Honeysuckle which appear to be a different rose.

Reply #2 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Did the OPH Dr Grills come from Honeysuckle nursery or Gretchen Wheen?
I'm assuming that the photos don't include the one you said was a ring-in?
The Tea Book authors spent about 8 years researching what was being sold by the old-rose nurseries in Australia, visiting the nurseries or, where possible, growing the roses in their own gardens. They didn't find a correct Dr Grill. I gather the roses sold under that name were consistently William R Smith, and the rose imported as White Dr Grill was Mrs Foley Hobbs.
Everyone will be delighted if a correct rose turns up.
As a further complication, Leonie K says that her William R Smith is different from mine. I hope we can compare them some time.

Reply #3 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Nadene, thanks for posting those photos by the way. Although it's hard to tell from a few photos, if I had to hazard a guess I'd say the Dr. Grill in the Old Parliament House Gardens is the W.R.Smith one.

Margaret, I wonder if Leonie K's W.R.Smith was originally Dr.Grill from Honeysuckle and it somehow had its name changed because of the misidentification of the other Dr. Grill. Could Leonie K possibly kindly post some photos of it?

I see too that Ross Roses is selling 'Dr. Grill'. This seems to be a new listing for them, at least I hadn't noticed it previously. Does anyone know if this is from the budwood of "Dr. Grill (ex Honeysuckle)" that I sent to South Australia?

Reply #4 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

Nadene

Hi everyone,

Thankyou for all the feedback. Changes will be made for this rose's plaque. However if the correct Dr. Grill becomes commercially available it would be wonderful if it can be reintroduced into the garden to complete the designers plans.

Sorry Margaret, I'm unable to determine which Nursery they came from. Although I have recently come into possession of Milton Simms original maps and drawings I have not yet seen any records from the nurseries he sourced them from or which rose was ordered from what nursery.
From memory in the group of roses. One was a dark purple / maroon and the other roses the lighter colour like the picture HubertG posted. I was also curious if the roses had been ordered in stages / garden, from different nurseries which may explain the differences between the two gardens.

Thanks again,

Reply #5 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Nadene, if you are trying to determine where the roses might have been ordered from try finding an old copy of The Australian Rose Directory. The 3rd edition was 1999.There might have been a later edition - I don't know. It listed all commercially available roses and their nursery sources in Australia at the time. It may be a useful resource especially if some of the Old Parliament House roses were rare and only available from one or two nurseries at the time.

I'm wondering if the dark purple/maroon ring-in might have been escaped Dr. Huey rootstock.

Reply #6 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

Nadene

Hi Hubert,
It certainly is of personal interest to me so I will be chasing down a copy and even the latest edition. Although I don't play a role in the replanting I know the person who does and there are definitely some roses they are having trouble with.
I had thought about the root stock too, from memory though the blooms look like a hybrid tea. Sort of like Etoile de Hollande.

Thanks again everyone.

Reply #7 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

I'll ask Leonie, and Andrew Ross.	REPLY

Reply #8 of 14 posted 30 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Thank you very much, Margaret.	REPLY

Reply #9 of 14 posted 31 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

Margaret Furness

Andrew Ross says that what they offer as Dr Grill is what they've had under that name since the 1970s. Leonie K says her William R Smith is sulking in the humidity, and it will be a while before she can get good photos.	REPLY

Reply #10 of 14 posted 31 JAN 21 by HMF supporting member

HubertG

Thanks, Margaret, for making those enquiries. I'll look forward to the photos.	REPLY

Reply #11 of 14 posted 1 FEB 21 by HMF supporting member

billy teabag

It is my understanding that Ross Roses was one of the main suppliers of the Old Parliament House rose garden project. I don’t recall whether I read this somewhere or if Maureen Ross mentioned it. She should be able to clarify this.	REPLY

Reply #12 of 14 posted 11 MAY 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

I am unhappy with the dark pink photos as I too have never seen ‘William R. Smith’ be so dark. In addition the bloom does not seem to be as droopy in mouldy old age as I think it might be. Is it possible that these pink photos might be of another rose altogether?

I believe Milton Simms had a nursery in the ACT. After he died, his wife continued the business for a while. The Heritage Roses in Australia ACT older members may be able to help here.

Reply #13 of 14 posted 11 MAY 21 by HMF supporting member

Nadene

Hi Patricia, Dr Grill in Rex Hazlewood SG65 P03 does appear different to Dr. Grill in Macarthur HRG139 G10 and H13. Photos of Macarthur will soon be posted and I will look for more photos amongst my collection. Will follow up with ACT HRIA members when I get the chance. Thanks, Nadene	REPLY

Reply #14 of 14 posted 12 MAY 21 by HMF supporting member

Patricia Routley

Nadene, I have opened two study files for “Hazlewood SG65 P0” - and moved the pink photos to this file. “Macarthur HRG139 G10”. I have not moved the white bloomed photos, even though they are labelled “Hazlewood SG65 P03”. You, as photographer, are able to reassign these photos and I will leave that up to you please.	REPLY