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'St. Nicholas' rose Reviews & Comments
Discussion id : 79-737
most recent 11 JUL 15 HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 AUG 14 by Hardy
This rose looks to me like a hybrid gallica to be certain, but I wonder about its other parent, since its resemblance to a damask is largely restricted to the blooms. In some ways it reminds me of Hebe's Lip, but Saint Nicholas has much larger and rounder hips, which are at least as wide as they are long. Whatever its ancestry, it's a prolific source of seed; while my large Autumn Damask was producing 1.1 achenes per hip, and my Rosa Mundi was making 4 per hip, a small Saint Nicholas was averaging 13.25 (10-24 per hip). At least 3/4 of its blooms set hips which didn't abort, and they were among the first to redden. I can't yet say more about it as breeding stock than that, but thought those observations might offer potential clues about this rose's ancestry, as well as being possibly useful info for rose breeders.

Update, Dec. 2014: When mixed OGR pollens were used, this rose gave a very good germination rate, and most of the seedlings have been well formed and healthy so far. In terms of viable seedlings per pollination, that is considerably better than any OGR I've worked with.

Update, July 2015: With a slightly more mature plant, yield increased to 16.6 achenes/hip this year, with 100% hip set.

Update, Feb. 2016: The 2014 seedlings, using mainly Damask Perpetuals and Centifolias as pollen parents, are looking interesting. This one's pretty typical, with the thorns and dark coloring of the (presumed) eglantine ancestor, but little sign of the Saint Nicholas/Hebe's Lip leaflet shape or shinyness. None were ever sprayed, and few got visibly sick despite severe stress (drought + attacks by wildlife). I wish the thorns weren't inherited quite so consistently, but otherwise am really liking SN as a seed parent, particularly when attempting to breed the least fertile of OGRs. If someone wants babies from Stanwell Perpetual, Duchesse de Rohan, Ispahan, "Dr. Peck's," or any OGR which produces little or no seed and scant pollen, I'd encourage them to think SN over.
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Reply #1 of 2 posted 10 JUL 15 by styrax
Interesting. It also passes down spotting in selfs, which might narrow it down.
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Reply #2 of 2 posted 11 JUL 15 by Hardy
Most authors have called it a Damask-gallica cross, without trying to narrow it down. Vintage Gardens thought it was a sport of Hebe's Lip, which it does resemble quite a lot. My guess is not exactly either; that it's a cross between Hebe's Lip and some gallica. Since you bring up speckles, how about Rosa Mundi x Hebe's Lip? I'm not claiming that it is, but I see nothing in it which would be inconsistent with that, and it doesn't seem particularly far fetched.

I first favored Hebe's Lip as a parent because SN's foliage has the exact same eglantine-hybrid look to it, rugose, shiny, dark, and distinctively shaped. They also share similar thorns and growth habit. I started growing Hebe's Lip to try out as a seed parent, with the intention of establishing that its seed production could account for SN's. Unfortunately, the drought has sent hordes of ravenous wildlife out of the hills and into my yard, so 80% of my hip crop for this year has been eaten or otherwise destroyed, including all hips on both specimens of Hebe's Lip, so I still can't say how many seeds per hip it makes. All I can definitively state is that the hips were large, and had a lot of growing yet to do.

But, if not Hebe's Lip, what was SN's mystery parent that makes over 20 seeds per hip? Gallicas are prolific, but not THAT prolific, and most old garden hybrids make less seed than gallicas. SN doesn't look like it's half modern, so there really aren't a lot of candidates!
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