HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Patricia Routley
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Initial post 3 days ago by lbuzzell
We've been asked by an environmental horticulture student at a nearby college about best roses for commercial uses - making rose water, perfume, rose water, rose vinegar and other rose products. Any suggestions?
Reply #1 of 9 posted 2 days ago by jedmar
Traditionally it is Rosa centifolia or Rosa damascena for rose water and perfume; Rosa gallica for rose vinegar. The variety 'Kazanlik' is planted extensively in Bulgaria and Turkey for rose water and rose oil. In India they also use 'Rose Edouard'. I know someone who uses 'Graham Thomas' to prepare yellow-coloured rose water and jams.
Reply #2 of 9 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
The hips from Rosa canina were used, and still are, commercially to produce rosehip syrup. As a newborn I was given this and a blackcurrant syrup called Ribena recommended then as health foods to be given in bottles at bedtime. It wrecked my milk teeth.
Reply #3 of 9 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
Marguerite Patten, 500 RECIPES FOR JAMS, PICKLES, CHUTNEYS. Pub. PAUL HAMLYM LIMITED, Westbook House, Fulham Broadway, London.

p. 39
Rose Hip Jelly

Cooking time 50 minutes

You Need:
1 lb. rose hips
2 lb apples
lemon juice

1. Simmer the rose hips with 1/4 pint water and apples with 1/2 water, separately.
2. Put both lots of fruits through separate jelly bags.
3. Mix together.
4. Allow 1 lb. sugar and the juice of 1 lemon to each pint.
5. Stir over low heat until sugar has dissolved.
6. Boil rapidly until jell is set.

Rose hip syrup

cooking time 5 minutes, plus sterilizing time.
you will need:
1 lb. rosehips
8 - 12 oz. sugar
3 pints water each pint of juice

To preserve the maximum amount of vitamin C, this is the method to use:-
1. Grate or chop the hips quickly and use immediately after grating.
2. Put into the water once boiling.
3. Simmer for 5 minutes only.
4. Stand for 15 minutes.
5. Strain and measure.
6. Add the sugar and proceed from step 3 in fruit syrups (see page 81)....

[And it goes off all about boiling it up and making syrup, if anyone wishes to know then ask me in a private message. I'm sorry about the imperial measurements].
Reply #5 of 9 posted 2 days ago by lbuzzell
Many thanks Andrew for the ideas and recipe! I love the idea of Rose Hip Jelly or Jam. Alas, we can't grow R. canina here in our Mediterranean zone - any suggested alternative roses that have great hips and could grow here?
Reply #6 of 9 posted 2 days ago by Andrew from Dolton
There is also a delicious North African spice mixture, Ras el hanout, that contains tiny rose buds but I don't know what rose they are.
Reply #9 of 9 posted today by Nastarana
The David Austin variety 'Golden Celebration' produces green hips the size of small crabapples. I tasted one once. There was not much flavor and I don't know how much vitamin C they might contain.
Reply #4 of 9 posted 2 days ago by lbuzzell
Thanks Jedmar. We are in a Mediterranean climate zone so need roses that can grow well here, which unfortunately excludes centifolias, gallicas etc. The Austin roses that have old rose genes (like 'Graham Thomas' and perhaps 'Gertrude Jekyll' and 'Golden Celebration'?) sound like possible alternatives - any other suggestions of Austin or other roses that might grow well here but also offer old rose taste and scent?
Reply #7 of 9 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
I'm surprised you can't grow R canina - or is that a quarantine restriction? I'm in a mediterranean climate (cool wettish winters, hot dry summers) and both R canina and the sweetbriar are declared weeds, bird-spread, in southern Australia. Sweetbriar is feral in New Zealand too (and was an important source of vitamin C during the war years, I'm told).
I haven't tried rugosas for taste of hips.
Reply #8 of 9 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
'Miss Clipper', 1942 was recommended for perfumed oil. See the 1949 reference for that rose.
'Gertrude Jekyll', 1986.See the 1993-106 reference.
I have noted 'Mme. Isaac Pereire' and 'Comte de Chambord' mentioned in the articles below and these articles may provide background information.

2010 The Rose, p347. Jennifer Potter
2000. Heritage Roses in Australia journal, Vol 22, No. 3, p37. Drying petals for confetti.
2000. Heritage Roses in Australia journal, Vol 22, No. 2, p38. Recipes for Elizabethan Bath Balls, and Rose Hip Chutney.
1998. Heritage Roses in Australia journal, Vol 20, No. 3, p44. Drying Rose Petals (using the microwave)
1978 The Rose Annual, UK, p33. G. S. Thomas. The Fragrance of Roses.
1975 The Rose Annual, UK, p22. G., S. Thomas. Perfume.
1974 Roses, p214. Gerd Krussman. The Rose in the Kitchen.
1964 The Rose Annual, UK, p42. A. M. Aldous. Pot-Pourri and Other Recipes.
1928 The Rose Annual, UK, p91. Mrs. Simonds. Pot-Pourri.
1918 The Rose Annual, UK, p95. Gertrude Jekyll. The Making of Pot-Pourri.
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Initial post 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
What were this breeder's christian names? We have three mentioned: Walter, L. Wilhelm, and Wilhelm August.
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Initial post 3 days ago by HubertG
This looks so different from the photos of my Dr Grill that I've just posted. Is this always so evenly pink?
Reply #1 of 8 posted 3 days ago by Vesfl
It does indeed look different from the photo of your 'Dr. Grill'. The shrub was in full sun when I was taking this photo and I took this closeup of the blooms on the shady side of the shrub. The blooms are not always solid pink but have shades of light to darker pink and I hope that this can be seen, albeit from a distance, on another photo of the entire shrub I posted.

After reading your comment, I've looked up "Tea Roses: Old Roses for Warm Gardens", a book written by the Australian authors, and they say that the original 'Dr. Grill' is not in commerce in Australia. On their profile of the 'William R. Smith' rose, which looks closer to yours judging from their photos, they write that it has been sold in Australia as 'Dr. Grill' and sometimes as 'Amelia Anderson'. I am not a rosarian, but hope this info helps. Either way, your rose looks absolutely stunning.
Reply #2 of 8 posted 3 days ago by HubertG
Thank you Vesfl. Yes, there does seem to be some confusion over Dr Grill here (and elsewhere). I'm pretty certain my bush isn't W R Smith or Amelia Anderson, as mine sets hips and doesn't ball.
Reply #3 of 8 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
And see the description page of Dr Grill: the rose grown under that name in the US is not the original Dr Grill.
Reply #4 of 8 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
HubertG - would you like us to make a "study file" for your rose in question? Since you are not positive about the provenance, I suggest a study name something like "HubertG's possible Dr. Grill", but you might come up with something more appropriate. You could then move your photos out of the 'Dr. Grill' file and this may help to lessen the confusion over 'Dr. Grill'.
We could link your account with this "rose file" and you could add as much information as you like on this rose over the years. Unfortunately we are unable to move the Comments relating to your foundling, so they would have to stop where they are.
Reply #5 of 8 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Patricia, no, I actually think that my rose is most likely to be the real Dr. Grill. It wasn't a foundling. I did purchase it as Dr Grill from Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery, it's just that we don't seem to know where they sourced their stock. It isn't the Dr Grill that appears to be William R Smith or Amelia Anderson, judging by appearances and fertility, balling etc.
Regarding why I think it is likely to be the original (no evidence of course, just considered speculation) boils to down to a number of factors. Firstly, it matches the descriptions of being variably coppery yellow to fawn pink, which mine is. I do believe it has similarities most with the Moon illustration particularly in the colouring and the commentary say that the colours are faithfully represented, but also in the formation of the flowers. The growth habit matches the early descriptions being angular/awkward. It always opens well, at least I never remember seeing it ball. Secondly, when I look at the parents of Dr Grill, particularly Souvenir de Victor Hugo, I can see strong similarities with my rose, particularly with the incurving central petals, the high centred form and the coppery colour. When I look at the picture of Parsefal which has Dr Grill as a parent, I can easily see my rose in it. I do believe that the early breeders must have seen something special in Dr Grill to use it in crossing with the early Hybrid Teas. When I look at some of the other European Dr Grill's here, although the colours seem correct on some, some of them are somewhat insubstantial in form and I wonder if a breeder back then would have used such a rose to create roses like Antoine Rivoire, Mme Abel Chatenay etc. Thirdly is the scent which isn't strong but is distinctly hay scented. Not too many roses claim to have such a scent. I know you can't smell it, you'll just have to take my word.
Lastly, Dr Grill was available at least in Sydney to at least WWII and possibly later, it certainly isn't inconceivable that bushes survived and cuttings were passed around. I speculated in another post that Honeysuckle Cottage Nursery might have sourced it from a local nursery that had some rare old HT's. I mentioned Columbia. I now remember Korovo was another of the old HT's being sold there that I don't think was in the catalogues of the time. This is purely speculation on my part but maybe they sourced my Dr Grill from there and it came from a old known local plant.

Anyway, as I said previously I don't know that my rose is the correct Dr Grill, but that could probably be said about any of the photos of Dr Grill here, so it would be a pity to give it a separate listing, especially as the case for it being correct is reasonably strong in my opinion.

I can certainly stop spamming the Dr Grill section with my photos if you like, but because it is so variable and beautiful, there always seems to be another shot to post.
Reply #6 of 8 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
Patricia, on second thought it might be better to move it to a new listing. Whatever it is, as long as anyone looking up Dr Grill's page can find a link to it that's OK with me. That way I can photo-spam all I like lol.
Reply #7 of 8 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
I would like to point out that HelpMeFind's capacity is not limitless.
Reply #8 of 8 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
LOL I was only joking.
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Initial post 2 days ago by HubertG
From the Rosen-Zeitung Sep 1912, page 93 (Text accompanying coloured plate):

"Freiherr von Marschall (Teerose).
(Princesse Alice de Monaco x Rose d'Evian.)

Ueberall auf Rosenausstellungen, wo Rosen ausgepflanzt waren, hat man sicher auch eine Gruppe der Rose Freiherr von Marschall angetroffen. Die dunkelrote, hübsche Belaubung fiel immer schon von Weitem auf. Der Wuchs ist kräftig gedrungen. Die lange, spitze Knospe öffnet sich leicht zur gutgefullten Blume von dunkel-karminroter Farbe. Durch ihre
Reichblütigkeit eignet sie sich vorzüglich zur Gruppenbepflanzung. Die Wirkung einer solchen Gruppe ist großartig.

Die Rose "Freiherr von Marschall" eignet sich zu allen Zwecken; denn ebensogut wie sie als niedrige Rose ist, ist sie auch als Hochstamm. Aber auch als Schnittrose ist sie sehr zu schätzen. Sie remontiert gut. Auch im Winter ist sie nicht empfindlich. Herr Peter Lambert, Trier, hat 1903 diese Sorte dem Handel übergeben.
Da sie mit zu den besten Züchtungen gerechnet werden darf, verdient sie allgemeine Verbreitung."

My translation:

Everywhere at rose exhibitions, where roses were planted, one invariably finds a group of the rose "Freiherr von Marschall". The dark red, pretty foliage is always noticeable from a distance. The growth is vigorously robust. The long, pointed bud opens easily to the full double flower of dark carmine-red colour. Because of its
freedom of flowering it is excellent for group plantings. The effect of such a group is marvellous.

The rose "Freiherr von Marschall" is suitable for all purposes; It does as well as a bush rose as it does on a tall standard. Even as a cut rose it is very much appreciated. It repeats well. It is not even sensitive in winter. Mr. Peter Lambert, Trier, introduced this variety to commerce in 1903. Since it can be counted among the best of varieties, it deserves broad distribution.
Reply #1 of 1 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
Thank you HubertG. Reference added.
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