HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Patricia Routley
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Initial post 2 days ago by Karin Schade
Can I ask you, why you named this rose "New Dawn"? Why do you copy the name of this iconic rose?
Reply #1 of 2 posted 2 days ago by Patricia Routley
We presume your question is addressed to the breeder.
Reply #2 of 2 posted yesterday by Karin Schade
Yes ;-)
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Initial post 14 JUN 18 by Margaret Furness
I have an own-root plant 8 or 9 years old, now 1.8m high. My other plant has more competition and is smaller.
I don't think the flowers are high-centred enough to match the early photos of Francis Dubreuil, unfortunately.
Reply #1 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by scvirginia
I did think that I saw a strong resemblance between this illustration and your photo of KE stems in a vase here: . Especially the buds on the left of both "photos" with the strappy sepals and a bit of a swan's neck effect.

I didn't have the impression from reading references and looking at old illustrations that FD was unusually high-centered.

But Bob may be right that KE isn't tall enough to be a good candidate? In the 1931 article by Mr. Knight, he seems to say that old plants of FD could get to be 8-9' tall... more like 2.5m. Do you think your KE could eventually attain that size with time?

Reply #2 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Margaret Furness
The parent plant was growing under a big camellia, and therefore stunted (and the Renmark plants were constantly deadheaded by David R). I haven't seen the old plants growing in other states - others may be able to comment. I think it could get bigger with time.
Reply #3 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
"Kombacy and its synonym plants, all have a definite S-bend pedicel, or swan neck.
Virginia - take a look at the 1906 and 1896 illustrations of 'Francis Dubreuil'. They look a bit high-centered to me. I am never going to be able to help with the height of "Kombacy Elyena", as my plants just do not grow all that well in this cool and acid soil. But I struck another two plants in 2016 and now have three in different locations to watch.
Reply #6 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by scvirginia
From the 1906 Gardening Illustrated:
"As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted."

It might be difficult to find Teas that have been left alone to grow 8-9' these days?

Mr. Knight was a fan of 'Francis Dubreuil' for Australian gardens, and I think his nursery was in the same part of Sydney as Rookwood Necropolis. I would have expected at least one 'FD' to have been planted at Rookwood, and there has been at least one "KE" found at Rookwood. That's not proof, but it is a nice correspondence.

Reply #8 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by HubertG
Have any of the Tealadies seen the collected plantings of old roses at Rookwood cemetery in Sydney?
I haven't been there for a number of years but I do remember seeing a distinctly red Tea (maybe Tea-China) which just from memory doesn't seem to be anything I've seen on this site. Virginia's point about George Knight being close to Rookwood is a relevant one.
Reply #9 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Margaret Furness
The Tealadies spent quite a bit of time on and off with Barbara May at Rookwood in their research years (and checking out what all the Aus nurseries sold as Teas). The references say that there were at least three plants of this rose at Rookwood. It was also in Melbourne General Cemetery and other locations in Melbourne, in WA and in Queensland. The colour would make it popular as a mourning rose, and it's clearly a survivor, but you could even wonder if it was ever used as an understock.
One reference says it's a little difficult to strike from cuttings, which isn't what I find.
The current list of what Teas and near-Teas are around, and some of the names they're sold under, are on the HRIAI website, under Resources / Tea/Noisette/China Collection (I can't access the website at present).
Reply #4 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
Afterthought. Actually the height/habit of "Kombacy Elyena" may be quite important.
I note Esmond Jones in 2004 wrote to me (see 2014 comment)
"The only P d S. that I ever saw looked to me to be the same thing as Stephi's red. One characteristic was it's ground hugging horizontal growth."

"Stephanie’s Red" (NSW) is the same as "Kombacy Elyena (Vic.)"

Margaret, do you recall the approximate habit of the original "Kombacy Elyena"?
Then would you read through the references for 'Friedrichsruh' and let us know what you think. Read from the bottom up.
Reply #5 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Margaret Furness
My larger plant of "Kombacy Elyena" does have a branch walking along the ground. Otherwise it is fairly vase-shaped.
I can't comment on the original plant, but given that it occurs in almost all of the mainland states, there must be other possible input. It isn't regarded as an HT.
The Freidrichsruh references don't mention a white petal nub or paler reverse.
Reply #7 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Margaret. I did find a fairly good habit description in my private correspondence, but I can't share that.
The height seems to be the main characteristic against 'Friedrichsruh' (18") for "Kombacy Elyena". (54")
Reply #10 of 20 posted 14 JUN 18 by Margaret Furness
Mine is 72".
Reply #11 of 20 posted 15 JUN 18 by HubertG
My two cents worth: just looking at the photos here of Kombacy Elyena, it does have quite a silvery-pink reverse and it doesn't strike me as quite matching the early colour descriptions of 'Francis Dubreuil'.
Also its foliage is quite striking and again doesn't quite fit the darker blue-green descriptions of FD's foliage, but then I'm only going by the few photos here. For those who grow it, is it generally velvety ?
Reply #12 of 20 posted 15 JUN 18 by Patricia Routley
Thanks Margaret. (Yours is bigger than mine!)
Sorry Hubertg, I can't really remember, but I wouldn't have thought "Kombacy Elyena" blooms are velvety.
Reply #13 of 20 posted 15 JUN 18 by HubertG
Kombacy Elyena does sound to be a better match to 'Mlle Christine de Noue'. That was one of the other roses Knight mentioned as making a big bush, and the 1905 reference here does describe silvery petal reverses.
Reply #14 of 20 posted 3 days ago by Margaret Furness
Mlle Christine de Noue has matching points, but I see the "strong upright stems" as arguing against it, given Kombacy Elyena's tendency to swan necks.
Reply #15 of 20 posted 2 days ago by scvirginia
That swan's neck is what originally had me thinking of 'Francis Dubreuil' as a possible ID. It was mentioned several times as strongly characteristic of 'FD' (see references of Sep 1898, May, 1899, Nov 1905, and Jan. 1925). One of those references remarked that the "crooked stalk" was "natural to the variety"- hence an unpreventable defect.

I look at the "KE" photo from January, especially, and to me it looks as high-centered as the 1906 photo from Gardening Illustrated. Catalog and magazine illustrations, of course, were liable to exaggerate flower forms to suit the current fashion, and in some cases the same illustration stood in for several different roses, but there is a sketch from Betten's Die Rose that shows the swan's neck, so I suspect it was sketched from an actual live specimen. It also looks similar to the opening "KE" flowers in that January photo.

I have a no-name dark pink Tea that has a flat opened flower that looks very much like the "KE" photo from Oct. 2011, but at certain stages of opening, it does look high-centered, before "relaxing" into its fully open, flat form.

A couple of references mention that 'FD' opens readily- sometimes too quickly, given the fashion then for roses in a bud state. Would you say that "KE" also opens quickly and easily?

No matter what her original name was, I find "Kombacy Elyena" to be an unusually fetching rose- the droopiness and swan's necks add to her charm.

Reply #16 of 20 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
The illustration of 'Francis Dubreuil' also appears in the 1897 edition of Betten's book and it was almost certainly etched directly from a photograph as that became a commonly used technique at the time. The 1897 version is less contrasted and even has a more 'photographic' feel to it. It's probably a pretty accurate depiction of the rose.

"Kombacy Elyena" seems to have the petal edges gently curving back in the opening flowers which is something that is suggested in the American catalogues and the 1906 photo. Maybe KE is FD, but what about the lighter more silvery reverses? I haven't seen this mentioned in any FD references.

I don't think KE could be Christine de Noue anymore.
Reply #17 of 20 posted 2 days ago by scvirginia
At least one FD reference mentioned cherry-red reflexes, but that isn't much to go on, is it?

The reverses may not have been present- or as pronounced- in European growing conditions, but with this being a rose that seems to have really found its biggest fans Down Under, I would also expect there to be some mention of FD having lighter reverses in Aussie rose literature.

Reply #18 of 20 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
The puzzling thing about KM is that it seems to have been pretty widespread in Australia. Red teas are pretty rare and the only two very common ones were 'Souvenir de Therese Levet' and 'Francis Dubreuil'. KM isn't SdTL because that was consistently described as having yellow at the base of the petals, so perhaps we do have 'Francis Dubreuil' staring us in the face. The only specific description of the scent of FD was Ellwanger's one of apples. Does the scent of KM even approach this?
Reply #19 of 20 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
Raspberry lollies (sweets / candies) according to people with better-trained noses than mine.
Reply #20 of 20 posted yesterday by Patricia Routley
i think “Kombacy Elyena” is very much a possibility for the original ‘Francis Dubreuil’.
Old plants have been found in four Australian States and ‘Francis Dubreuil’ had been recommended in Australia.

Members have referred to the whitish or silver reverse, but if one asks the internet what colour is cerise, I get almost exactly the same colour as Margaret’s 26 Oct 09 photo. Cerise was mentioned in the 'Francis Dubreuil' 1895 p294 reference.

I feel the mentions of straight stems could have meant the structure, or the upright skeleton of the bush.
1895, p73 straight stems
1895, p213 borne erect upon strong shoots
1896-41 upright held flowers.
1910-10 stiff stems convenient for sprays and bouquets.

A little later references talk of the drooping blooms:
1898-198. blossoms have a peculiar manner of bending over
1899-169. The flowers of the last unfortunately droop
1906-365 As a pot-Rose Francis Dubreuil has one failing, and that is a peculiar weakness in the stalk, which causes the blooms to bend at the neck and appear on the plant quite distorted. Market growers have, for this reason, been obliged to discard the variety.

There are different bloom sizes mentioned throughout the references, but this could be explained by different soils and conditions. And the same for perfume - different noses.

The colour amaranth comes up often in the ‘Francis Dubreuil’ references and this colour is mentioned (Main page Notes) In connection with “Mary Ann Murray”.

My blooms of “Kombacy Elyena” at Northcliffe have certainly been tight.
1913-30 the petales are tight, not leaving any space between them
most recent 2 days ago HIDE POSTS
Initial post 3 days ago by Rockhill
Some of the later descriptions of the Tea Belle Emilie seem to be of the Gallica of the same name. Check against the translation of the earliest description of the Tea and you will see a difference in fullness, colour and shape of flower.
Reply #1 of 4 posted 3 days ago by Patricia Routley
Which ones please Rockhill?
Reply #3 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Rockhill
I was thinking of the references that refer to Belle Emilie being very full and flat when open whereas the earlier descriptions says it is semi-full or semi-double and cup-shaped or expanded when open. Look at the Rosenlexicon entry and two other German references.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 2 days ago by jedmar
One problem could be that 'Belle Emilie' and 'Thérèse Stravius' were originally distinct Teas or Chinas. It seems that Paul was the first to list them as synonyms, 20 years after they were obtained. They were possibly similar, but a bit different and then got confused in the nurseries.
Reply #5 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Rockhill
That's a possibility. There seem to have been several gallicas called Belle Emilie in the past - one of which at least is extinct. Have a look at what Joyaux says about Belle Emilie in his book on gallicas - La Rose de France. It would be good to sort out the confusion that reigns about roses of this name today.
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Initial post 13 MAR 18 by AquaEyes
I'm not in Australia, but I often stumble upon things while searching HMF, and thought perhaps the rose below might be a possibility, especially since it was sold in Australia:

Has this popped up among the possibilities yet?


Reply #1 of 4 posted 13 MAR 18 by Margaret Furness
An interesting thought, thank you. As usual on such matters, I'll defer to the Tealadies' opinions.
It's a pity the illustration doesn't show the receptacles.
I'm told that "K E" is known in Queensland as "Joanna"; so it's a survivor in all the mainland states of Australia. You'd think it should have survived in other countries too.
Reply #3 of 4 posted 14 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
I have added the little that I found. There seems to be too many blush or salmon pink tones in 'Mme. Philippe Kuntz' for my liking, but am dismayed to see salmon also mentioned in the 1897 reference for the main contender 'Christine de Noue'. I would go along with cherry red, purple or purple chestnut for "Kombacy Elyena". I didn't realise it was a large bloom in other gardens. Thanks again for your suggestion Christopher.
Reply #4 of 4 posted 2 days ago by scvirginia
In July 1899, Francis Dubreuil was listed as being one of the best red or crimson roses for Queensland. Just thought I'd mention it...

Reply #2 of 4 posted 13 MAR 18 by Patricia Routley
I don't know Christopher. Unfortunately people often do not share the results of their searchings. But on first glance it seems an excellent suggestion and, having the rose myself, I do thank you for it. I will, hopefully, tackle the books this afternoon and add any references for 'Mme. Philippe Kuntz' that I can find.
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