HELPMEFIND PLANTS COMMERCIAL NON-COMMERCIAL RESOURCES EVENTS PEOPLE RATINGS
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Margaret Furness 
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Thank you for sharing a very good picture of the whole shrub. Far too many that post pictures to HMF focus on the blooms. We need more than just a couple glamour shots for a reference website!
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#1 of 9 posted
4 days ago by
jedmar
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Exactly, rose photos really should be a "set" of photos. I invite HMF guests to post their preferred list of photo types, in priority order please - e.g. bloom, whole plant, leaves, etc.
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#3 of 9 posted
4 days ago by
Johno
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I fully agree. Ideally in the upload five photos maximum would include in order: Best bloom; Whole bush; Foliage showing prickles and hips; Buds partially opened; and Full bloom. It is OK to have a couple of additional bloom photos. Sometimes you can get some variation in colour which is appreciated. There is no satisfaction in uploading ten plus photographs of the same rose in the one go. A thrill is providing a photograph to HMF when there isn’t one for a particular rose.
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TBH I wish some people would stop uploading photos which are either out of focus, obviously not accurate for colour, or which do not provide enough information to be worthwhile for identification (ie: subject too small, lighting is unclear, etc).
Some people seem to want to upload a photo simply because they want to upload a photo. If you're not throwing away the majority of the photos you take, you aren't trying to get it right.
Re what Johno said: 'Foliage showing prickles and hips; Buds partially opened;...'
I think you could split this down a bit more, since getting a really good shot of prickles and foliage is sometimes difficult in the one shot. And of course, prickles can vary between old and new growth, as can foliage.
And buds in the process of forming, before they start to open, can also be worthwhile subjects.
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I find the location information more important, most people don't state where the picture was taken... it's not that relevant to me - and vice versa I should think - if photos are from warm climates like California, Australia and southern Europe.. rootstocks like fortuniana give a different result, bloom colours can be so out of sync with what I get here.... so I have to bypass those as of academic interest only, and seek out photos from northern/western Europe.. which are more relevant..
I often find I have to click on the members name to see which country they're in.. I try to be very specific as to where I'm located in my photos..
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I think that the season rather than the date should be stated, to avoid misunderstanding on an international site.
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All good points - more are welcome!
Now the question is how to encourage people to do so. Maybe a write up listing the ideal photo "set" ?
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This may be controversial, but I would even go so far as to recommend that admins be allowed to delete photos which are just "rubbish". Have some standards for what will be regarded as acceptable. If someone cannot be bothered meeting those standards, that's on them.
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Yes, a good point. While it may be difficult to define just where that line should be, it certainly is not problematic to define the extremes.
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I wonder if the Grafin or her family gave permission for "her" rose to be re-named for a horse. Or if they were asked.
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#1 of 9 posted
12 MAR 19 by
HubertG
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Lol, I don't how rights for renaming roses for other countries work, but I do prefer the name 'Black Caviar' to the original German one.
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I looked up the Grafin on g**gle - think she deserved a rose more than the horse did. Unless you won lots of money on it!
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#3 of 9 posted
12 MAR 19 by
HubertG
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True, she did. However, Black Caviar is still easier to say.
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#5 of 9 posted
6 JUN by
joekoel
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what is the actual variety name ie the German one
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Astrid Gräfin von Hardenberg.
Or, Nuit de Chine.
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#8 of 9 posted
6 JUN by
joekoel
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Thanks Margaret but I think the 2 names you gave are only trademarks. I did find the actual name which is TAN97150. The actual variety names are now called ''codes'' .Variety names are now a joke . Roses become known by their trademarks which in reality makes them invalid Eg Iceberg started as a trademark but became so generically used (ie became the identity) that it is now an alternative variety name
The actual variety name is 'Korbin' but yes who would know it by this name !
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Different "trade" names are for individual markets and whatever additional royalties associated with them and rights to use said name. That's why some have multiple (and therefore confusing names). Especially if names are translated for local languages or changed for market suitability. The code registration name is for verification of identity to ensure the proper one is sold. There's nothing actually "illegitimate" about any of the names used for sale.
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#6 of 9 posted
6 JUN by
joekoel
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Hi Hubert They simply use a trademark to identify the rose ( this is invalid use ie generic use of a trademark) which is wrong but they get away with it
There are cases though where the trademark through natural attrition rightfully becomes an alternative variety name ( ie synonym)
How many of you out there realise that Iceberg began as a trademark but is now far better known as the variety name than 'Korbin' ie it was so heavily misused it became an invalid trademark
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#4 of 9 posted
26 JAN by
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I will start a new comment as the older discussion was of considerable length, as is this comment.
Because of the various spellings of Thibaut / Thibault / Thibaud, I had a look through the Roseraie de l'Hay 1900 catalogue looking for similar names but only found:
p58. 'Mme Thiebaut Sine'. Leveque 1886 H.R.
p58. 'Mme Victor Wibaut'. E. Verdier 1854 H.R.
p59. 'Mlle. Clementine Ribault'. Ribault 1885 H.R.
p64. 'Pierre Liabaud'. Liabaud 1887 H.R.
p71. 'Ch. Reybaut' (inconnu) Tea.
p91. 'Mme. Andre Theuriet' l'Hay 1899 H.T.
....so no joy there.
Because of the lack of 'Mme Jules Thibaut /Thibault /Thibaud in the literature, I am wondering if if this could have been another of Nancy Lindsay's renamings. Looking at some dates:
1935 Allyson Hayward [in] Norah Lindsay. The Life And Art Of A Garden Designer
p190. [Norah visiting Johnny Johnston at Serre de la Madone in France] it has become twice as complicated as it was.... and too many pots in tiny gardens for my taste......
p195. At present there is nothing but red geraniums.....if he would only plant roses and jasmine.....
1946. Graham Stuart Thomas, Cuttings From My Garden Notebook
p146. James Russell and I [see 1959 note below] paid our first visit to Miss Lindsay's garden on June 30, 1946. The address was Manor Cottage, Sutton Courtney, Abingdon, Berkshire..... three of her main hunting grounds were Hidcote Manor (She was a friend of Lawrence Johnston) and ...... The thought-provoking names poured from her. For some years I was frustrated by these names because I could not find them in any of the old French books in my possession, nor in the Lindley Library. At length the reason dawned on me. Finding an unknown rose in an old garden without a name she let her fancy run free and coined a name for it. There were many others, all since resolved.
1946-47 RNRS Historic Rose Journal No. 37, 2009
Charles Quest-Ritson. ....there is a copy in the RHS Lindley Library of the slightly longer list that he [GST] issued the following year in 1946-47
1948 Allyson Hayward [in] Norah Lindsay. the Life And Art Of A Garden Designer
p243. Norah [mother of Nancy]] Lindsay died of cancer of the kidney on June 20, 1948.
1948. Graham Stuart Thomas - [in] The Graham Stuart Thomas Rose book
p6. The year 1948 was spent mostly in consolidating my own plants and getting to know the numerous varieties I had collected.
1949. Allyson Hayward. The Roses of Norah and Nancy Lindsay. [in] Rosa Mundi 2010 Vol 23, No. 2, p24
By approximately 1949, T. Hilling and others were carrying the [Nancy's] roses, and Nancy also began selling them directly from her Manor Cottage Nurseries. She produced a nursery catalogue titled Shrub Rose List describing her rose offerings
1949. The Gardeners Chronicle
p49 Long Barn Gardens, [Mulberry Green, Harlow, Essex] set out their attractive miniature rock gardens in pans, together with specimens of the Rose 'Madame Jules Thibaut'.
1958 Allyson Hayward [in] Norah Lindsay. the Life And Art Of A Garden Designer
p268 Lawrence Johnston 1871-1958. A close personal friend of Norah who often stayed with him at Hidcote and Serre de la Madone in France, he left the latter to Norah's daughter, Nancy.
1959
A November 20, 1959 invoice from Sunningdale Nursery shows the landscape manager of the nursery was James Russell and nursery manager was Graham Thomas. (See 1946, p146 above)
1962, January 20
An Australian nursery imports 'Mme Jules Thibaud' from Sunningdale Nurseries, U.K.
1963 Shrub Roses of Today
p147 'Deane Ross. Mme Jules Thibaud'. A sport from 'Cécile Brunner' very near to it, but of peach colour rather than pink. I have been unable to trace its origins.
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Other references which may or may not be relevant:
2009 RNRS Historic Rose Journal No. 37
p9. Bunyard travelled widely in France and Germany looking for roses to add to his collection.
p10. Graham Stuart Thomas may have bought Bunyard's collection
Vita Sackville-West was a lifelong friend of the Lindsay family.
Somewhere I have read that Nancy Lindsay's father left her 100 pounds a year, and her uncle Peter (Norah's brother) bequeathed her Manor Cottage. She used the rear of the cottage as a small nursery. I didn't scribble down the name of the nursery but seem to remember it was something like the Cottage Nursery. She did put out a catalogue and if anybody can find one or two of these, they would be most interesting.
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It seems that we should call upon our English Heritage compatriots for any knowledge they may have of 'Mme. Jules Thibaud'.
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From the Librarian at Glasnevin Botanic Garden on 21.6.2017:
I have checked the T. Hilling rose catalogues for 1948-49, 1950-51, 1951-52 and 1959-60 and also the rose section in the hardy nursery stock catalogue. I didn't come across anything with Mme Jules Thibaud/Thibault/Thibaut.
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And a friend has checked an undated, pre-decimal Nancy Lindsay's Manor Cottage Nurseries catalogue (probably c1960s) and there was no mention of 'Mme. Jules Thibaud'.
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From Norah Lindsay's biographer:
I have an original Nancy Lindsay Manor Cottage Rose List and cannot find any reference to Mme Jules Thibaud
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Ms Lindsay seem to court controversy with almost every plant she names. Is she really reliable enough to be trusted?
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For our New Zealand members:
Murray Radka has advised "The plants [of Mme. Jules Thibaud] I bought from Trevor Griffiths and Nigel Pratt (under mystery China) appear to be identical.
Tasman Bay Roses has advised
However unfortunately Ben [Nigel's son] does not know anything about this rose, guess this was just between Nigel & Murray at that time, I suggest you contact Murray once again and gather his memories of the rose as Nigel sadly is no longer with us.
Does anybody else have any information about the New Zealand "Mystery China"?
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The last two comments are from me, and as I can't reply to myself, the sequence is going to look a bit odd. Never mind.
I have sought advice from the founder of Heritage Ross in Australia, Trevor Nottle, to see if he could add any tiny scrap of information that could help. He has replied via Rose Marsh:
"Deane Ross was heavily into exchanging budwood when he was alive, the 70's being his period of highest activity. He got a lot of old varieties from Trevor Griffiths, Sangerhausen, Sunningdale and other English sources. He was urged to get buds from Sangerhausen by me, Walter Duncan and David Ruston and while he brought in many more varieties, I do not find any ref to 'Mme. Jules Thibout' [sic] among our correspondence. Mainly he tended to look for, and get things like teas, chinas, bourbons, the roses bred by Geschwind, Poulsen roses, species and roses that repeat their flowering."
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I am very grateful for this information Allyson and may I ask if there was there any date on this List? You have written "approximately 1949" when she began her nursery but I don't know how long Nancy operated her Manor Cottage Nursery and if she produced more than the one catalogue. (I enjoyed your book on her mother Norah Lindsay. The Life And Art of a Garden Designer so much that I really hope you write another on Nancy.)
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Another friend has advised that Jean Hillier has checked the Hillier Rose Catalogues from 1940 – 1949 and found nothing.
I note that Charles Quest-Ritson has written in the 2009 Historic Rose Journal No.37,
p8. Graham Stuart Thomas ....joined T Hilling & Co.... his brief in 1931 was to ..... Tommy Hilling promoted him quickly until Graham became his general manager.
p12 .....meanwhile Hilling's catalogue, presumably written by Graham....
p13. Nowhere in any of his works did Graham give credit for the true source of his old roses, though the hints are there if you wish to follow them up.
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Thomas says "I have been unable to trace its origin" In my addition of Shrub Roses of Today.
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I received today a 1972 A. Ross & Son. S.A. catalogue as a gift from Glennis Clark in Sydney. (Thank you Glennis. It is much appreciated). This is the earliest A. Ross catalogue I have and I spent the afternoon indexing this catalogue and note:
After importing 'Mme. Jules Thibaud' in 1962 from Sunningdale Nurseries; and mentioning the rose in his 1963 book Shrub Roses of Today; A. Ross & Son did not list the rose in their 1972 catalogue.
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"1963 Shrub Roses of Today
p147 'Deane Ross. Mme Jules Thibaud'. A sport from 'Cécile Brunner' very near to it, but of peach colour rather than pink. I have been unable to trace its origins."
Well that throws another spanner in the works, because the rose available here under that name has no hints of peach in it. At least, not in my garden. Has anyone ever seen it looking peachy?
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Check out Margaret Furness' photo (added by Gregg Lowery)
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And Billy's recent photos from Renmark, of plants probably now demolished.
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I suppose a couple of those might be related to peachy, as second cousins or something.
Nice bush. Pity if it got demolished.
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Wouldn't really call that peachy.
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Depends on the peach?
I'd say orange-pink, as on the description page, rather than pink.
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Definitely peachy/pink in my garden with the early blooms more peach! Most unlikely to be Lippiat's 'Fairy Gem'. Lippiat was not one to give away a potential star, and while he listed 'Fairy Gem' in an early catalogue, it had disappeared from his 1917 catalogue. The spelling could be Thibault, Thibaut, Thibaud or Thibauld, as these all have similar pronunciations, and since Graham Thomas only knew of the name through oral records, any of these spellings could be correct. It is most likely to be a surname. The name should be 'Mme Jules Thibaud' rather than 'Madame Jules Thibaud', I think.
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Hi, just wondering if Manou Meilland is suitable in big pots? And how high does it grow? I live in South Australia too. Adelaide Region.
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David Elliot is a Canadian who visits many conferences and gardens with a camera. I'm in SA but can't help re Manou Meilland.
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Ross Roses in S.A. are listed as having this rose.
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