HelpMeFind Roses, Clematis and Peonies
Roses, Clematis and Peonies
and everything gardening related.
Member
Profile
PhotosFavoritesCommentsJournalMember
Garden
Member
Listings
 
Margaret Furness
most recent today HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 3 days ago by odinthor
I find zero references to 'Niles Cochet' before its offering by the California Nursery Company of Niles, California, in 1911. References to 'Niles Cochet' as if dating back to 1906 appear to result from confusion with 'Helen Gould', which was referred to for a time as the 'Red Cochet' or 'Red Maman Cochet'. For instance, a ‘Red Maman Cochet’ is listed in a 1906 advertisement—with ‘Pink Maman Cochet’, ‘Yellow Maman Cochet’, and ‘White Maman Cochet’ and many other roses—as a premium available to subscribers to The Epitomist, with the roses all supplied by Good & Reese; but at that time it was a synonym for ‘Helen Gould’, as specifically stated in the Good & Reese catalog for 1906 (p. 20). Good and Reese indeed seem to acknowledge this when, more than two decades later, they call 'Niles Cochet' "the TRUE Red Cochet" (my emphasis) in their 1929 catalog.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 4 posted 2 days ago by HubertG
It seems that 1911 was the year that the California Nursery Co. changed this rose's name to 'Niles Cochet' for it appears in their 1910 catalogue, and prior to that, as 'Red Maman Cochet'. It's also clear that it wasn't 'Balduin'/'Helen Gould' as this rose is also listed in the HT section. They record the introduction date of 'Niles Cochet' as 1906 in their 1915 catalogue, as well as confirming it "was sold for a few seasons under name of Red Maman Cochet, but was thought deserving of a more distinctive title, as it is not, strictly speaking, a red rose".
REPLY
Reply #2 of 4 posted 2 days ago by Margaret Furness
From the references to Auguste Comte, from the HRIA Journal of 2021,43.4, p. 33, in an article by Lynne Chapman and Billy West:
"Many of you use the resources of the HelpMeFind website and here we encountered this rose as a foundling in Sardinia and also, to our surprise, discovered that it could be purchased under four different names in Europe: in Italy as Mme Scipion Cochet, and as Castello della Scala (a reintroduced rose); as Maman Cochet in the UK, and in France under the name Auguste Comte. It is also in the USA as we have seen it as one of the roses under the name Niles Cochet."
REPLY
Reply #3 of 4 posted yesterday by odinthor
Interesting--thanks!
REPLY
Reply #4 of 4 posted today by HubertG
Margaret, very interesting about the rose sold in Italy as 'Mme. Scipion Cochet' matching 'Niles Cochet' in the US, as I just came across an American catalogue reference from 1925 which seems to erroneously synonymise these two roses.

From the Elmer Bros. (San José, California) "Rose Souvenir Catalog" (page unnumbered):

"Madam S'Cipo Cochet; Niles Cochet or Red Maman Cochet (California Nursery Co., 1906) (T.) Cherry red on outer petals, lighter within. A sport from the popular Maman Cochet and a far better rose. The flowers are just a trifle smaller, stems are better, carrying flowers fairly well. It is a remarkably free bloomer, particularly in the Fall, at the very time when its color is at its best. Succeeds splendidly as a “standard” as well as in bush form; a strong grower."

Clearly "S'Cipo" is some sort of misreading of Scipion. However if 'Niles Cochet' had been imported to Italy from this grower in the 1920s (and it is an American rose after all) it gives weight to the argument that the 'Mme. Scipion Cochet' found in Italy is really 'Niles Cochet'.

It's the only reference I've seen so far for 'Niles Cochet' also being called 'Mme Scipion Cochet' - maybe it was a frequent error, but I don't know yet.
REPLY
most recent 4 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 4 days ago by Margaret Furness
I don't know this rose at all, but the other photos look double, as in the description, which doesn't mention a white eye. Do other flowers on this plant match the other photos?
REPLY
most recent 14 days ago HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 14 days ago by Margaret Furness
Recently awarded a Silver Medal in the East Coast (of Australia) Rose Trial Grounds.
REPLY
most recent 28 JUN HIDE POSTS
 
Initial post 28 JUN by HubertG
I'm going to make a suggestion that this rose might be 'Ernest Metz'. This is based mainly upon the similarity of the photos here of "Bishop's Lodge Ah Mow" to the photo of the basket of 'Ernest Metz' from 'Roses for English Gardens' which shows various stages of the opening blooms, the descriptions in the references generally matching, and also that 'Ernest Metz' was known to be exhibited at the Hay Horticultural Society shows from the mid 1890s to the early 1900s. It was even still being suggested as a best rose for newspaper plebiscites as late as 1929.
So you have a seemingly popular exhibition rose in the right spot at the right time to fit a Bishop's Lodge scenario.

My reservation is that even though the 'Ernest Metz' references mention it as a pink and yellow blend they tend to lean towards a soft pink overall.
I haven't grown "Ah Mow" or even seen it grow, but I thought it worth suggesting for those who do grow it.
REPLY
Reply #1 of 1 posted 28 JUN by Margaret Furness
A very interesting suggestion, and good sleuthing. Interesting that they chose to photograph it next to Mme de Watteville; we've noted similarity in the past. Among the differences, "B L Ah Mow" is more likely to have soft lemon-yellow at the heart.
I haven't seen a darker petal reverse or striping (mentioned in only one reference), but I will keep watching it.
Not a strong grower, which may have contributed to its loss of popularity.
Looking at the photos, the receptacle is variable in shape, which I hadn't spotted before.
REPLY
© 2024 HelpMeFind.com